shares in new delhi who took the most recent eighty had to marry collection remove the clothes of the maidens hotel the leader. members and cheerfully was punished but a precocious minutes. three thirty pm in moscow good to have you with us here on our t.v. easier headlines fighting for control of key cities intensifies in libya but the media is being blamed for making it look much worse than it is stoking the conflict just to get striking headlines. as gadhafi is foreign cash goes under lock and key experts warn of the legacy of using frozen assets as a long term political tool. and young people in italy look to inject fresh blood to the country's leadership but some fear it could mean leading to the nationalistic fault right. next to fight for the rights of american workers but as peter

lavelle's cross-talk gas look at the protests in wisconsin which are testing the cornerstone of the country's democracy stay with us crosstalk coming up next. we'll. bring you the latest in science and technology from the realms. of the future coverage. can you still. want to. follow and welcome the crossfire gang people who go drawing battle lines over collective bargaining puts america's democracy credentials in the line of fire but

is this move the red tape rolled back or an attack on the founding fathers. can. discuss the state of democracy in the u.s. i'm joined by steve lesser in new york he's a columnist for democrats for progress dot com also in new york we have niles stanage a journalist and author of redemption song an irish reporter inside the obama campaign and in washington we cross to fordo o'connell he's chairman of civic form pac and another member of our cross talk team you know in the hunger all right gentleman all three of you have been on cross talk before so you know how it works for you i want to go to you and talk a little bit about collective bargaining in the united states democracy are the founding fathers a little worried right now as they see what's coming out of ohio and out of wisconsin. the koran rest the united states isn't about the merits of democracy democracy is alive alive and well it's really about sort of spending and fiscal

responsibility as a relates to government this may be the issue of the decade in the united states to be perfectly honest with you democrats love to blame folks like george w. bush and reality this situation dates back to over a generation lyndon johnson and frankly both parties are culpable we're running a federal deficit of one point five trillion a national debt nearing fifteen trillion everybody knows we need to cut back but nobody wants to step forward to make a difficult cuts we've that said if america wants to remain the world's economic leader it must draw a line in the sand right now and that's what we're saying with scott walker in wisconsin and case i can ohio ok steve if i go to you a lot of people would say a skeptic would say is that the banks can be bailed out wall street can be bailed out. big pharma big big everything can be you know protected but when it comes to the middle class who protects them. and that's exactly right peter you know we have we have people in employee unions making thirty forty fifty thousand dollars

a year their wages essentially if you look at it have not gone up in thirty to forty years the people of the right of the richest one percent the c.e.o.'s their income has gone a share of the pool has gone from sixty to one to two hundred fifty to one in the last forty years the middle class and the lower classes have no more disposable income left the republican model of saying it's a tax issue will give you a couple hundred dollars back and more you know a year in taxes that's not going to affect the lives of middle class americans and the class americans should be making if if we kept to the sixty to one income model of top one percent. to the average non-supervisory worker you know middle class americans should be making about two to three times what they're making now and that would make a big difference in terms of the disposable income in the lives of average americans one other point that i want to bring up right now peter in the last thirty years you've seen the rise of companies like wal-mart and target because their target their their focus is to allow the middle class and lower classes to wring the last bit of of spending power at of their dwindling income

a very ominous sign even wal-mart is starting to do badly now so people can even afford to shop at wal-mart and this is this is the the end of fact of supply side economics over the last thirty to forty years this is the problem that we're dealing with and it is a test of american democracy. when we go back to who pays for it all now if i can go to you you're an irishman and ireland isn't doing too well either these days how would you explain to your fellow countrymen what the heck is going on in the united states right now. well i mean i think there are some parallels with elsewhere in the word peter obviously other nations including ireland and britain have seen struggles in the past between union power and government power when margaret thatcher was prime minister of great britain that was famously a minor strike there i think you know people overseas do you have to understand

that the sounder of political gravity in the united states is further to the rights than in most of europe for example now that's not to say that there is popular support for every right wing initiative but it's interesting when you look at the polls on the issue that we're talking about that neither the unions in wisconsin nor the republican governor there have actually got massively positive pull ratings people are reluctant to really give whole hearted backing to either side it seems to me you know if fortifying go back to you i mean is this just a swing in american politics or do you think it's something that is more permanent because i mean this difference of opinion on this program but you know i have to tend to agree with can some conservatives like yourself if i can say that about you i mean the question is who's going to pay for this ok i think ultimately that's the question and that's what divides people who is going to be held responsible how do we pay for these because i can these budget gaps because i can understand these

governors i really can i can understand if they really want to get their house in order everybody wants to get re-elected and you can't have deficit spending forever so i do have sympathy there may be how do you go about how they're going about doing it that's a different question. well i think that that is the big question here i mean you know look the state and federal government when it comes to spending has been irresponsible for more than a generation with that said i think we have to separate private unions from public sector unions so the collective bargaining situation with public sector unions the issue here is that they have an unfair advantage basically the deck is stacked against state governments due to their fiscal irresponsibility over time and the taxpayers held hostage if this were sort of the story of the fox in the henhouse here public sector unions own the you know control the fox the hen house and the mortgage on the hen house the problem here is there's nobody to protect the hand which in this case is the american taxpayer with that said democratic politicians

traditionally have been willing accomplices because public sector unions in particular seem to be the largest source of their campaign funds and campaign operations and they've basically become like harry one addicks addicted to public sector union farms because they want to get reelected so instead of doing what's been fiscally rational over time they're doing what's clearly the politically expedient in terms of preserving their position in office ok steve so it's those evil unions that are done all of this is this what we're hearing here. yeah you know it's really it's really amusing to hear that kind of thing listen hey everybody we're done watching this show i want you to go to an internet browser i don't care which search engine that you go to and i want you to look up a term called starve the beast this is where we are today with federal and state budgetary problems is exactly where the republican party wanted us to be this is a policy and a strategy that they have been following for thirty to forty years basically it is keep the tax rates low don't address spending because everybody has their pet

projects and everybody when i mean citizens of the country everybody has their pet projects nobody wants their stuff cut so we won't do that we won't address that we won't it deal with that issue but we'll keep taxes low we'll keep spending eventually the government's going to go into crisis and then you know government officials will have no no choice but to start cutting things so let's not forget we're exactly where the republican party tried to try to have us be so in four tries to tries to blame this on democratic spending that's a joke ok republicans have fought tax increases consistently on the last thirty to forty years so that he was actually pushed us into a situation where every state and federal government is way out of whack in terms of deficits but you know let's be honest about who's fault that is ok niall if you're not you're not it won't go you told us to go ahead parties go both parties are culpable in this ok the difference is now finally the republican i'm

a conservative finally the republicans have actually stood up and drawn the line in the sand look nobody's saying this book george bush spent like a drunken sailor ok barack obama president obama spends like britney spears on a crack bender so let's wake up here both parties are culpable all i'm saying is right now folks like a second walker were actually deciding to stand up and let me tell you something cuomo in new york is going to be next ok do i want to ask you here no no no no all right go go real quickly and then i want to get into the real quick go ahead sure. absolute you're half right for both parties have been spending the problem is democrats have wanted to pay for it by taxes and what's happening every single time a democrat has said listen we've got to pay for what we're spending republicans are like oh oh look at it it's democrats they want to tax and spend they want to tax and spend no they want to tax and spend they want to balance the budget and you guys have been stopping us in every state and the federal government for the last thirty or forty years so it's not true that both parties are equally culpable one party has tried to pay for it all right now i want to go to you for sure now ok it

seems to me i don't live in the united states i don't have to support a governor or be against a governor or senator or anything ok i'm an outside observer now but you know it seems to me is that everybody wants to keep something and they want the other every everyone else to sacrifice what they have but never sacrifice what you have and i think that's really where we get this deadlock in american politics because it's very very specific we can look at health care we can look at pensions all kinds of things i want to keep what i have you're going to have to sacrifice what you have. absolutely i think that's that's very true a very accurate way of putting out i don't really think that this dispute that is going on at the moment is really about the american people coming to some definite or new position in the abstract about collective bargaining what we're talking about here is the fact that as thomas friedman a very prominent newspaper columnist here has said government in the united states over about the past half century has been primarily about giving things to people

and now simply because the united states is essentially living beyond its means government is going to be about taking things away from people to an extent and the question is what will people accept in that way prop will link it up even if you look at last year's congressional elections obviously a lot of republicans got elected with tea party support tea party supporters paint themselves as pretty fiscally conservative and that's fine but what about the actual concrete that measures are manifestations of that people support raising the social security age pensions as it were going on in other companies do people support reducing health care payments for the rule or the per to people support these particular individual measures that would enable the united states to actually live within its budget and that's really the core of this issue and i think that that is going to be a discussion that will go on for many years here because there is no great sign

that the united states will imminently begin to live within its means ok before we go to the break for what can republicans give up if we can continue this theme. i think now is right on the money what we're experiencing is sort of a great awakening we have to we have to really target medicare medicaid social security and defense spending until we touch those issues we're going to go nowhere from the federal government all the way the state government ok steve i'm going to go to you after the break and so you're nodding your head in disagreement after a short break we'll continue our discussion on democratic values in the u.s. no surprise they would argue. can't. stand. observe nature and discover its buzy.

communicate with the wild. test yourself and become free and. see what nature can give you on the hot seat. cover on your eyes. we hear it because our country out states. that god promised them this milind belongs to. will if they are still going to be thinking. and going chosen people will believe that god is real state say look at this that is this for you guys disguised as we. don't want to be this is. this or might not that.

bad. for the full stop we've got it for. the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers on the t.v. . can. lead. to. welcome back across an archive material about the tree mind you were discussing what is happening with america's democracy the same can be slim. but first let's see what russians think about their own country's

democracy. reddest covering their use of the push for democracy isn't full swing around the globe and then in the greater middle east is no better evidence but in the us the strongest proponent of democratic revenues does it work and centum are mostly be the same everywhere public opinion agency live out us and ask russians what kind of democracy is preferable proby country forty three percent see democracy in russia preserving the country's national traditions and specifics twenty three percent believe russia should follow the path of european and american forms fourteen percent still see the soviet model to be their prime choice and another seven percent see russia does not need democracy with the way to go democratic uprising in the northern africa will the rest read this cover democratic

values. ok steve before we went to the break i noticed that you were reloading your political pistol to fire back at ford so go right ahead. but you know for wants to cut social security and medicare and things like that you know the thing is a military spends as much on defense as the entire action more on defense than the entire rest of the world combined i i am in favor of a strong defense of former military and every body knows that it used to be the us air force i was i was enlisted i want to have a strong defense we don't need the military that we have now how about an across the board fifty percent cut in all military spending let's see where that gets us in terms of a budgetary situation and then let's go back and see if we need to cut folks for middle class people who retire and need health care i don't think it's necessary i think when you fight when you cut what really is not necessary to keep america safe i don't think you need to cut social programs or we think about that for it i mean i think you know you are vested interest so you know so in bed with the government

in kabul government contractors from the military which is politically you know suicidal. steve let me first off say thank you for your service to america with that said i agree with you i think that there are aspects of america's the fence mending that needs to be cut back ok you know we can still be the best and most efficient fighting force in the world if we look at it rationally as secretary gates suggests with regard to medicaid medicare and social security we're going to have to take it with some things there because we can't continue to be all things to all people and you can't start sounding like nancy pelosi by fighting the sixty's out in your head again ok i'm with you well i agree with you we need to do we want to settle down as a real estate so you know if you're not you're not saying anything bad to me by comparing me to nancy pelosi i happen to love the way you already know i understand you know if i could go to you i mean if i could still if i go back to me more i may be sympathetic to what's going on in a sense in the european union in specific countries and european union and in the united states still you have

a lot of people who have done very well i mean even the financial crisis is over for one percent of the population that it least maybe a couple other percentage points but it's far far from over from a huge swathes of the american population with unemployment and and prospects are very bleak here and again be maybe more sympathetic you see a lot of people that have really done what they thought they were supposed to do and now they're being told you're going to have to live with a lot lot less ok and i'm thinking about the baby boomers that thought they were paying into this their entire life i mean there is disappointment in that respect. there is absolutely and i think you make a good point about the recovery for a small section of the population i tend to think of politics as something where there are very few permanent changes but there are certainly swings of the pendulum and you know it's interesting if you look back into the early one nine hundred eighty s. when president ronald reagan famously defeated an air traffic controller strike at

that time the public was broadly supportive of that and the proportion of the american public that believe unions had too much power was considerable i think around sixty percent now oh that percentage has dropped dramatically in a new york times poll this week it was about half of that so i think you are seeing that a broad swathe of the public failover perhaps it's not excessively union power that causes played problems for the united states fiscally or economically but instead they look back at the crash of two thousand and eight they see on regulated financial power and big banks and big industry having a lot of power and i think they look justifiably to that sector of society as at least as culpable as any suggestion that there's some kind of union barons as they used to be called and sort of holding the government or private employers hostage

you know. if i could afford not brought up ronald reagan like remember the welfare mothers there were so many mo for mothers out there was bankrupting american social security for i mean they are unions be stayed out of public sector unions they being scapegoated in all of this is that they really have a problem. i think so and it really has to do with regard to the working within government look are we going to shut down the schools are we going to shut down mass transit are we going to shut down the fire houses now and the unions know that look and one nine hundred sixty something like ten point eight percent of our government workers were unionized and in two thousand and ten it's thirty six point two percent they know where the good deal is that and that's why they continue to do it in turn their membership dues go on to protecting politicians at the ballot box who are going to continue this sort of unfair balance with collective bargaining and binding arbitration it is a no win situation for the american taxpayer as the flip and you know the bill

essentially for governments being done when it came to negotiating contracts ok steve if i go to you i mean collective bargaining is considered an international human rights ok we're not you know we are talking about really an american context here but it's an international human right and i'm thinking about tunisia and cairo people fighting for their rights here i mean americans fighting hard enough for a universal human right collective bargaining. yeah and you know i think i think americans have stopped buying this argument that it's that it's the unions you know republicans have successfully over the last thirty or forty years up until now said you know it's the unions fault you know they're making fifty sixty thousand dollars a year you're making thirty to forty and it's their fault that you're not making more money people have stopped buying that you know we are spending too much money on things like defense we haven't raised taxes to pay for the things that we're supposed to pay for taxes is like it's like a third rail in american politics right next to social security when republicans are going to say ok not only do we have a spending problem we have

a revenue problem why can't we talk about that why can't we have an honest discussion about that why are we pointing to these people who are just trying to make an honest decent living they're not making ridiculous amounts of money they're making an average middle class earning that's given them a basic amount of disposable income i think it's really unfair to place the blame on those people and i think the american people are stopping by just like the polls at night are pointing to sixty two percent of people are against taking our way the collective collective bargaining rights for public employees unions people people are waking up to the idea that you know the problem is not with the unions the problem is there's an economic disparity issue in the united states that has to be addressed now and i often go to you i mean i'm thinking of the tea partiers and and you know if you like them or dislike them they were of a very powerful powerful force in the last election even if they were big money behind them i mean i'm thinking of protests around the world i mean as if problems are not solved here and we see the tea party or something like the tea party

develop even more because if we don't get answers and we get this deadlock which we are are already seeing here do you think england step further i guess really what i'm getting at is that we're americans really are conscious of the importance of having a democratic choice because a lot of discussions here with our good friends are with all due respect the choices are not always that that stark they're actually very very close together. well i think that it is possible that something like the tea party could get an increased momentum especially if the the broader issue that we're talking about here deficit some national debt is not addressed the interest payments on america's national debt at the moment amount to about eleven thousand dollars parasitism if that is not addressed then it could clearly lead to public discontent but where i would be more reluctant paper is saying the path will go on to you to feel an

actual third party or a radical party in the way that your questions seem to be suggesting i actually think that for all the flaws in american democracy the two parties here and how functioned reasonably well as a big enough hand to include you know the majority of americans clearly there have been third party candidates for health major been obvious example but you know the idea that there is massive discontent in america that is possibly true to an extent but i do not see that discontent finding a ideological focal point beyond the spectrum represented by the by the two main parties here to be honest fortifying is a system working for the average american in the united states right now. i don't think the system right now is really working for anyone it's still the best system in the world but it can get better and that's really what we're seeing you know

from abroad it looks like we have on rest but what i think a lot of people around the world don't recognize is is a democracy is not always clean it gets messy and you know the mere fact that we can have protests in wisconsin without people getting shot in the streets like say libya says a lot for the american democratic way with that said you know the u.s. government and governments around the world need to really wake up to this sort of fiscal realities of the twenty first century and until about occurs this is going to continue in manifest itself and spread to other states in america and around the world look at greece it is a tragedy what happened because you know basically everybody took their eyes off the ball for the past generation and i think we may see that elsewhere as well steve what do you think about that is the system working for the average citizen. i will agree with ford surprise surprise that i don't think it is working. obviously obviously the reasons that i think it's not working are different from his i want

to reiterate two things that i've said i would love to have everybody who watches this show go to an internet browser and type in a phrase starve the beast and see who is responsible for our fiscal situation here in the united states the other thing that i would say with both. hands and trillions being spent on defense truly is in trains trillions spent on defense who is threatening the united states of america i want us to be strong but who's threatening us why do we need to you know what it's causing problems all around the globe the amount of money that we spend i just read in the paper the other day russia is increasing its military spending by six hundred fifty billion dollars why are they doing that well you know well there's a history of being regulated i'm sorry we're running out of time and let me ask you a question russia russia is living in a growing. neighborhood you know they study thanks and i guess to be in new york and in washington thanks to our viewers through watching us here are to see you next time and remember crosstown. can. still.