three thirty pm in moscow good to have you with us here on our t.v. easier headlines rob pro and anti-government forces in libya are still on fighting terms both sides agree on one thing and urge foreign powers to keep out of the conflict. the u.s. vice president comes to moscow on a mission to lift the reset to new heights with missile defense cooperation global trade in libya on the agenda. and the london commuter town that's increasingly a crossing point for extremism its residents living on the edge as it draws both radical islamist and nationalist to its streets. up next cross talk focusing on the

place that saudi arabia occupies in the storm of unrest engulfing the middle east and north africa that's coming your way next. can. blow in welcome to crossfire and i'm peter lavelle the growing sand storm in the arab middle east has changed sweeps the region to saudi arabia immune to outside

influences u.s. president barack obama says he supports democracy and the aspirations of the people does this apply to the kingdom of saudi. king. to discuss the situation in saudi arabia i'm joined by ali allow me in washington he is the executive director of the center for democracy and human rights in saudi arabia in dubai we cross to robert jordan is a former us ambassador to saudi arabia and now a baker botts and in london we go to a bill by the out one is the editor of the al goods i v newspaper and another member of our crosstalk team on the hunger all right gentlemen this is cross talk that means you can jump in anytime you want if i go to you mr ambassador in dubai would how would you describe what's going on in saudi arabia right now in light of the uprisings and what some people are calling the arab the arab awakening in the region. peter i think there's

a lot of anxiety right now i just came back from visits to both riyadh and the eastern province there is concern of course particularly about the shia they have rage that has been called for friday i think it remains to be seen and i thank you that would be but there's a tremendous amount of anxiety about the youth bulge about the lack of jobs to some degree about corruption and to some degree about just the basic competence of the government so there are there are some there's a bright chamber there are things could be ignited i think overall the king is very well beloved in saudi arabia and that's that's not a plus but there are many mixed signals coming out of saudi arabia right now i'm going to you in london are the cows coming home to. coming back to kind of the what we've seen in the region for the last forty years i mean this is been a coddled regime by the west particularly the united states i mean we hear president obama supporting democracy do you think he supports democracy in saudi arabia i don't believe he does support democracy is that a.b.s.

saudi arabia always like a holy cow to the american administrations and they would like to that royal family to continue the new wood that of a lesion of human rights and that bad because of freedoms there so that american old was actually grooming that as i would be royals to last and they never listen to their grievances or the saudi people and the problem is not actually among the shia in the eastern province but the problem is among the young saudis there are fifty two percent of the saudi population under the age of twenty five so those people already defeated all of them would you keep it in the west and they can see that unemployment is more than twenty percent in one of the wilkie is the country and the middle east so twenty percent there pop where you know unemployment this is it excluding women because women are not allowed to work and old jobs just the selective sick there's a lot of that society so i believe this is the way. it is very tense and many

people are really good i'm playing there and they want changes to take place i mean political changes that government i mean the king of saudi arabia who actually is a reformist until now he did not introduce proper reforms he still believes that he can bribe his people by giving them. salaries increases or by or promising that out of. will fall for the people who are for housing benefit or something like that but political reforms is still far away and if i go to you in washington should the people of saudi arabia have the same freedoms that america and its western allies claim should be for egyptians or tunisians for libyans i mean is is saudi arabia just so different and so separate and so exceptional. no sir you are going to with ambassador jordan. and with. most of what they say and it is a natural issue this is

a certainly people's issue especially to you with sixty seventy percent of this or the bible asian or below the age of twenty five years old so this is a new generation of people actually and i said of jordan and i discussed this briefly when he was he gave a talk in washington d.c. or. washington institute. not are exceptional what's happening and out of all it is going to accomplish. one of the i made a cons like a government like that what are i like it or not. it is a new get out and of people who are rejecting the all values the use of freely given as a as a tool of operation discrimination. rejecting one family or all. the surge in general this road you people are a victim at this point and has been there are victims of struggle within the royal

family itself you have some more oil. and now if we do and i want to change the status quo at all you have somebody like that and start on her son and kind of done to him his daughters who are in favor of some cause and i think. for them to shut people up if i went in this hall and families shows today i want to start listening to the people i will start the process of some kind of elections i will start the process of constitutional monarchy because that's the only way to save the country and to save all family itself ok mr ambassador i mean a lot of the these ideas being floated about in people being imprisoned in saudi arabia for speaking out. just for the very ideas that have been just mentioned here but there's still an enormous amount of written rigidity with it's also been mentioned this program bribing the people with such a huge aid package what thirty six thirty seven billion dollars again the

exceptionalism because i mean the young people of saudi arabia see exactly what's going on in the region and they're aspiring it's somewhat they do the same thing but we don't see the royal family really giving much ground there i mean there's a conflict in down the road no matter how you look at it. i think there is a conflict in this one that they're going to have to pay attention to i would just say this about the financial package each year usually around december they come up with a financial package not unlike this they delayed this year because the king had been hospitalized after surgery and so while it looks like a bribe in a way this is a program that they've instituted over the years and i've seen the king's interest in solving some of the problems of poverty and so i don't think i would be quite as cynical about it but at the same token by the same token i think it's very important for us to recognize that we've had these discussions with the saudis for a number of years it's ironic in a way that the it ministration of george w.

bush was perhaps the first to raise the freedom agenda i was in their face over issues related to human rights religious freedom and freedom for women we finally at about the time i left office in two thousand and three talking a bill and then the crown prince announced that they were going to start having elections for half their municipal councils well that hasn't turned out as announced and they haven't gone forward with a larger program which i think is most unfortunate and they need to get back with that program they need to start empowering the people and they need to start building blocks of democracy you don't just have elections overnight but what they need to do is have freedom of assembly greater freedom of the press freedom to speak out and freedom to dissent and not be thrown in jail for it though if i go to you in in london i mean i guess i need to be very cynical right here is that the royal family doesn't have any need to change because it knows its apologists in washington will back them to the wall it doesn't matter it didn't it's about democracy it's about human rights it's about oil and what the saudi royal family

wants it's going to get. well actually yes i agree with you but you cannot rely on american support for ever knew of iraq of egypt he was the closest ally of the united states and he signed peace treaties with israeli or maintain them and he was a peace broker listening to the american dictations and there you know he was a good boy and this guy that american could do nothing to him to keep him in power when the people revolted against his religion less same thing applies to the saudi yes that american are very happy with their relation with the saudi the saudi arabia for example where there is shortage of export from media they've increased their production to more than nine million barrel of a it is true also the saudi help american to remove saddam hussein from power but the saudi people are the people who can decide the future of the united states foreign policy in the region and also that you know the existence or the strength of their royal family gene so i think that america should push very hard on the

saudi royal family not now but longer and may go to the form itself to actually reform to put an end to the corruption put in state the rule of law i just underlined is that all of load the equality the justice that that transparency that election election not only them going to civil council but also that you know the parliament we need a parliament there's a very good to represent the people and we need a constitutional of one of the key they're not actually the royal family control controlling every drop every investor and they see every you know business sector so we have to consider saudi people personally i was shocked when i am going to have seen the love so there you go visiting the shanty towns around riyadh and he actually could not walk because of the sewage industry it's also he was shocked to see injured there which is the biggest the second biggest city is a very big drowning and flood simply because there is no sewage system there and

many people were killed killed were. because of that so i think that american lifted too late for the saudi people for the saudi the ruling family to say to them look enough is enough you have to care about your people and we think of you in washington that's a very good point because in looking at all of these regimes that are failed are failing or will fail in the arab world the united states is critically just focused in on dictators elites and forgotten about the people and you think that's the same process as we just heard from washington is that washing is never really seemed to people's all due respect to the ambassador on the program its focus has always been the regime in keeping it in place and i live here in washington and have lived for a while in the states and i have. you know the administration and. you go to then have said you know what people of the positions and i've heard ministration and frankly speaking i don't think i'm not an apologist for the american government i think we've got some lousy things in the middle east including supporting dictators

but i think that their major. ministrations at least. probably every day they push they push the issue and your government hasn't got to go to them as absolutely bush administration did more to get more democracy and out of blood and the administration of this country and publicly that what we need to fundraise and obama and clinton as to do exactly what bush said publicly support the people already and i'm going to jump in right here we're going to go to a short break here and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on saudi arabia stay with our. story. and. the observed nature and discover its buzy.

league the communicate with the wild. test yourself and become free. and see what nature can give you an obsolete. i am. old. bringing you the latest in science technology from around russia. we've got the future covered. to. be soo much brighter if you remove the son from violence to christian.

stance on t.v. dot com. if. you'd . welcome back across our computers about three mind you were discussing the current situation in saudi arabia. but first let's see what political outcomes russians expect for the arab world one more infected while the people of saudi arabia kick the fool sweeping the arab world cyber activists in the country are calling for demonstrations on march eleventh and twenty two to demand change and they can the russian public opinion research center asked such as what could be the outcome of mass demonstrations of

the middle east thirty eight percent believe in positive changes and think authorities will listen to the people twenty four percent see negative prospects saying authorities will only tighten the screws and another nineteen percent say nothing will change so that people are in the streets demanding political reforms release of political prisoners more employment opportunities and greater freedoms better peter ok i'd like to go back to washington are you want to finish off a point you made before winter break go right ahead. yes. i want a problem in this country is you out of stock we ought to start with the state. and hands of so without a desperation of a because of its position i was there not to get us out of petroleum but also this one thought of. trying to decide on if it was not well to stick with this statement and key issue here yet at this point so yeah it is more unstable than the

ambassador would notice it is more unstable at this point and you time and countries history so we are not we might have been the key and we are not supporting democracy we and this country have to have a lot of mind and stop go on and decide what this country stands for and it is a lot of democratic values and that is a key to state medicaid and. on your part of the world alright maybe that maybe the americans will start living up to their own words in the region and they be there some optimism i mean at least the us backed up finally the people of egypt and i go to the ambassador here this friday at least according to a facebook account seventeen thousand saudis are going to have their day of rage on friday at the same time ten thousand saudi troops and police forces are moving into the east so it doesn't sound like the regime is interested in dialogue is it well they're interested in stability to start with and i think you're interested in a peaceful dialogue you have to be ready for whatever comes up they don't know what

to expect none of us do we can't really predict it i will say this though king abdullah started the national center for dialogue several years ago he has built i think an institution now that is intent on finding dialogue between sunni and shia between male and female between young and old and i think we need to respect that effort as are gone far enough certainly not but it doesn't mean that they're not interested in dialogue merely because they have security and police force. it was assembled for what has been announced as a large rally ok if i'm good abdel and bad habits die hard because just as we've pointed out through this program here is that i mean the use of force is the first reliance that regimes like this like to use and as we speak right now it's raging in libya people don't give up so easily it appears and there's no reason in the world why the the royal family in saudi arabia is this going to say oh yeah we

should sit down and have a dialogue that's hasn't happened what why would it happen now i mean they're just going to tighten their grip because that's what they know best and their american friends have supported them all along. yeah that's the problem with the american administration is you know when they had the word they're low getting everything is small with and finally saudi arabia but you know what's the outcome of this. and informs them that ground nothing at all you know that they yell at is on the ground is completely different here you have more than one hundred twenty thousand young saudi who where if you created in the western united states in particular they have the highest degree from from highly respectable universities they went back to their country. the tool you know how the american adjourned democracy and going to my rights and doing transparency. and in their country it's completely corrupt country so this is the real problem in their their logo actually should tackle the demands of those people those people now they have they have the planet of media

they have their facebook they have the internet they have the you know the freedom of expression outside the official outlets there so now they are saying you know why tunisian managed to change very jean and have reforms why does gyptian actually manage to change energy after thirty two years of ruling so we can't do it and if they don't want to change their family they wanted to be can call constitutional monarchy not actually and you know autocratic monarchy as as as we have seen in. now so i think the problem is the government there it is cosmetically their logo it is not actually new to bellow it's not actually reach some sort of understanding some sort of actually sets faction so that the people themselves who are very very bad have a lot of grievances and their ground this is the problem of the talking about their local ok yes what what what happened after the yellow do we have elected parliament do we have actually reforms or do we have. the reduce the corruption do we have

people participating in that in order to turn in their future and so this is the biggest question and now i think those people are going to you know demonstrate in . saying look enough is enough we want our rights this is our wealth and this is our country we have to have a saying how this country should be run we should have a look at governance like everybody else ok again mr ambassador again with all due respect here i mean the americans certainly look like they're playing the game catch up when it comes to democracy in the arab world is that because it's all about iraq and about israel's security and everything else can go by the wayside oh let's throw in oil too ok but you know oil iran israel that's what it's all about it democracy has never really been high on the agenda and it has been it's been lip service. well don't let me overstate it here but i think it's really about national interest and america's national interest is not the same as other countries' national interest certainly you have to have a reliable supply of oil to run an economy you have to have certain military

capabilities you have to have certain geopolitical capabilities and you have to recognize your allies are but having said that i go back again to what i think bush administration should be proud of and frankly what i'm proud of and that is that we got in their face i would talk about human rights i have made speeches and had private discussions over the last eight or nine years saying what you teach in your schools and what you preach in your mosque is not an internal matter it's a matter of our national security and it's a matter of what's right or wrong these are statements that i've made publicly and there's a record of that so i think we've got to be fair on both sides here in that respect but clearly there's a national interest and clearly there's an issue about iran clearly there's an issue about a world and that's frankly wrapped into the concept of national interest which the president has sworn to uphold can we find any you can as we sat down in this program here there's speculation that oil is going to go up to two hundred dollars a barrel i mean you know for all the reliance of the united states had on. saudi

arabia and opec and all that two hundred dollar a barrel that's going to break any kind of global recovery i mean it's an amazing vicious circle because of oil and because of a medieval regime in the middle east and oh it's. let me let me go back to what the ambassador said the intent of the national interest they tie did he is we we don't cloak and through these so we need people's national interest all of it interest period and this a globalized economy and spread of thought out of them a big say in islam which i doubt i'd be as the bashing for both. we have to understand that our national interest is going to depend been like also the best interest of the show do people by continuing by continuing to support this absolute . via is not going to say to our national interest anymore and that's what the

question content is on i said we should start. seeing that our national interest is going to depend on when a stable it is sir and sir and they got a free agent as a whole and that stable if you can only you can one day people of that country are the authors of their own destiny and times have changed now if anything happens in charedi al-arabiya and tell them of the oil crisis. it can be a catastrophe a true global economic recovery it will may of course happen and i now look like a picnic and frankly speaking and i am not formally agins in violence but frankly speaking we should have acted might faster then we do know and look at me and said you have two days three days to go had we done

that this abroad long this ted wells has in libya which is a creating problem with the oil prices at work never has haven't we and this country have to go and the side of the people there our people are and they get think fourteenth century of operation ships and humiliation. and this is in your. people that we have to deal with and we've got to we've got to king we need to formulate a new policy. chair a change from what you just said and we go to washington here what do we do this week we just heard that obama should have told gadhafi got three days to get a dart show so we should we say that to the royal family of saudi arabia yes i believe you know obama if he is going to say to the gaddafi you have two days to leave your office i think you should apply the same rules to the saudi hundred

apply the same rules to other gulf states and there and kings you know he cannot actually just be hypocrite and selective and his enemies or his democratic actually drive so i think the situation is worse than the situation in tunisia for example or in egypt at least in egypt you have a free press you have you know or at least you know deliberately a free press you have elected parliament with or we disagree with it or not you know if you have at least some sort of a civil society is there. you know that there's a few issues of other religion is there the minimum all of the unknown existence so you want to look at the story shows all day but i just said there is no rule of law in that country and there medic and administration always criticizing saudi arabia because of the lack of respect for other villages and also for the lack of cooperation and i'm going to jump in here not everyone out of time here but i'm sure we're going to come back to it a lot of shouting in saudi arabia many thanks to my guest today in washington dubai

and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember prostate problems. can. start.

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