seven thirty pm in moscow the zero g. headlines of violence between libya's pro and anti-government forces shows no sign of easing with more than one thousand people now believed to have been killed in weeks of fighting but the rival sides are united on the one playing their opposition to foreign intervention. turmoil in north africa driving thousands of illegal immigrants to seek refuge in europe but the british town of luton is already struggling to deal with the tensions between a large muslim community and nationalists. and unifying issue for

a new stumbling block finding common ground over libya expected to be part of discussions during u.s. vice president joe biden's visit to russia it's seen as a chance to check on the progress of the reset of relations between the two countries. next crosstalk focuses on the place saudi arabia occupies in the storm about arrest engulfing the middle east and north africa is coming up. you can.

blow in welcome to our song i'm peter a little the growing sandstorm in the arab middle east as change sweeps the region to saudi arabia immune to outside influences u.s. president barack obama says he supports democracy and the aspirations of the people does this apply to the kingdom of saudi. king. to discuss the situation in saudi arabia i'm joined by ali alyami in washington he is the executive director of the center for democracy and human rights in saudi arabia in dubai we cross to robert jordan is a former u.s. ambassador to saudi arabia and now would take robots and in london we go to a build body out one is the editor of the al goods i b newspaper and another member of our crosstalk team on the hunt all right gentlemen this is crosstalk i muse you can jump in anytime you want if i go to you mr ambassador in dubai would be how

would you describe what's going on in saudi arabia right now in light of the uprisings and what some people are calling the arab the arab awakening in the region. peter i think there's a lot of anxiety right now and i just came back from a visit to both riyadh and the eastern province there is concern of course particularly about the shia they have a wage that has been called for friday i think it remains to be seen and i thank you that would be but there's a tremendous amount of anxiety about the use bolger about the lack of jobs to some degree about corruption and to some degree about just the basic competence of the government so there are. there are some there's some dry timber there are things could be ignited i think overall the king is very well be loved in saudi arabia and that's that's not a plus but there are many mixed signals coming out of saudi arabia right now and i'm going to you in london are the cows coming home to do to coming back to kind of haunt the what we've seen in the region for the last forty years i mean this is

been a coddled regime by the west particularly the united states i mean we hear president obama supporting democracy do you think he supports democracy in saudi arabia i don't believe he does support democracy in saudi arabia so there is always like a holy cow for the american administration is and they would like to that royal family to continue being you. of a lesion of human rights bad because of freedoms there so that american old was actually grooming the saudi royals to last and they never listen to their grievances of the saudi people and the problem is not actually among the shia and the east and probably is the problem is among the young saudis there are fifty two percent of the saudi population under the age of twenty five so those people who are great deal of them with u.k. than in the west and they can see that unemployment is more than twenty percent in one of the wealthiest country in the middle east so twenty percent you know

unemployment this is it's including women because women are not allowed to work and old jobs just very selective sifters over of that society so i believe this is. it is very tense and many people are really grumbling there and they want changes to the place i mean political changes that government i mean the king of saudi arabia who actually is our reformist until now he did not introduce proper reforms he still believes that he can bribe his people by giving them. salaries increases or by or promising they're out of the world for the people who are for housing benefit or something like that but political reforms is still far away i mean if i'm going in washington should the people of saudi arabia have the same freedoms that america and its western allies claim should be for educations for tunisians for libyans i mean is is saudi arabia just so different and so separate

and so exceptional. no i do agree with what ambassador jordan and. most of what they say and this is not chad's issue this is a people's issue especially to you with sixty seventy percent of this early but relation below the age of twenty five years old so this is a new generation of people are clearly ambassador to jordan and i discussed this briefly when he was he gave a talk here in washington d.c. at the. washington institute. so that it has not are exceptional what's happening and out of all it is going to accomplish. one of the i made a cons like a twat of a surrogate about a month like a lot of i like it or not. there is a new generation of be of all rejecting the old value the use of freely given as a as a tool of oppression discrimination. expert abbreviation rejecting one family

or all. the surge in general this showed you are a victim at this point and has been there are big terms of struggle within the royal family itself you have some royals. and not have who do not want to change the status quo at all and have somebody like but it's not on his son and kind of gun one has daughters who are unfair out of some cause my think. are foreign to shut people up if i went in this hall and families shows today i want to start listening to the people i was starting a process of some kind of elections i will start that process of constitutional monarchy because that's the only way to save the country and to say i've got all family itself ok mr ambassador i mean a lot of the ideas being floated about in people being imprisoned in saudi arabia

for speaking out. just for the very ideas that have been just mentioned here but there's still an enormous amount of written rigidity with it's also been mentioned this program writing for people with such a huge aid package like thirty six thirty seven billion dollars again the exceptionalism because i mean the young people of saudi arabia see exactly what's going on in the region and they're aspiring it's somewhat they do the same thing but we don't see the royal family really giving much ground there i mean there's a conflict in down the road no matter how you look at it. i think there is a conflict in this one that they're going to have to pay attention to i would just say this about the financial package each year usually around december they come up with a financial package not unlike this they delayed this year because the king had been hospitalized after surgery and so while it looks like a bribe in a way this is a program that they've instituted over the years and i've seen the king's interest in solving some of the problems of poverty and so i don't think i would be quite as

cynical about it but at the same token by the same token i think it's very important for us to recognize that we've had these discussions with the saudis for a number of years it's ironic in a way that the administration of george w. bush was perhaps the first to raise the freedom agenda i was in their face over issues related to human rights religious freedom and freedom for women and we finally at about the time i left office in two thousand and three king of go and then the crown prince announced that they were going to start having elections for half their municipal councils well that hasn't turned out as announced and they haven't gone forward with a larger program which i think is most unfortunate they need to get back with that program they need to start empowering the people and they need to start the building blocks of democracy you don't just have elections overnight and what they need to do is have freedom of assembly greater freedom of the press freedom to speak out and freedom to dissent and not be thrown in jail for it if i go to you in london and i guess i'm going to be very cynical right here is that the royal family

doesn't have any need to change because it knows it's apologists in washington will back to the wall it doesn't matter it did it's about democracy it's about human rights it's about oil and what the saudi royal family wants it's going to get. well actually yes i agree with you but you cannot rely on the american support for ever knew about or of egypt who was the closest ally of the united states and he signed peace treaties with israeli or maintain them and he was a peace broker listening to the american dictations and there you know he was a good boy despite that the american could do nothing to him to keep him in power when the people revolted against his image and that same thing applies to all the saudi yes the american are very happy with their relation with the saudi the saudi arabia of for example of the shortage of oil exports from media they've increase their production to more than nine million barrel of day it is through also the

saudi help america and to remove saddam hussein from power but the saudi people are the people who can decide the future of the united states foreign policy in the region and also about you know the existence or the strength of their royal family regina's so i think the american should push very hard on the saudi royal family not now but long term able to the form itself to actually form to put an end to the corruption put in state the rule of law i just underlined is that all of low the equality the justice that that transparency election election not only them going to civil council but also that you know the parliament the we need our parliament as a very bitter represent the people and we need constitutional of one of the key they're not actually the royal family contrary controlling every drop everywhere and they see every. business so we have to consider the saudi people personally i was shocked when i am going to have seen king abdullah of saudi arabia visiting

the shanty towns around riyadh and he actually could not walk because of the sewage industry it's also he was shocked to see good there which is the biggest the second biggest city in saudi arabia a drowning and flood simply because there is no sewage system there and many people were killed killed were. because of that so i think that american lifted too late for the saudi people for the saudi even ruling family to say to them look enough is enough you have to care about your people only if i go to you in washington that's a very good point here because in looking at all of these regimes that are failed are failing or will fail in the arab world that the united states is critically just focused in on dictators elites and forgotten about the people and you think that's the same process as we just heard from washington is that washing is never really seen the people at all due respect to be ambassador on the program its focus has always been the regime in keeping it in place and i live here in washington and have it for a while in the states and i have. i know the administration and

a lot of good and have said you know a lot of the positions and i've administration and frankly speaking i don't think i'm not an apologist for the american government i think we've got lots of lousy things in the middle east including supporting dictators but i think that the american ministrations at least about appealing. about appealing every day they push their push this idea government by saddam to go again is absolutely i wish administration did more to promote democracy and our board and the administration and this country and publicly what we need to raise and obama and clinton as to do exactly what bush said publicly support the people already and i'm going to jump in right here we're going to go to a short break here and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on saudi arabia stay with art. and.

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in the vicinity of known differentiated so produces so much the changes including the cancer leukemia. five hundred of them damian says the families don't have to have a college degree going to have to play for an education dunder stamp. radioactive materials all over somebody's backyard that you got a problem. on and you can see. the full. welcome back across all computable about remind you we're discussing the current situation in saudi arabia kuwait. city.

but first let's see what political outcomes russians expect for the arab world why don't more infected well the people of saudi arabia catch the flu. sweeping the arab world cyber activists in the country are calling for demonstrations on march eleventh and twenty you didn't mention age mcalinden the russian public opinion research center asked citizens what could be the outcome of western most creations in the middle east thirty eight percent believe in positive changes and think authorities will listen to the people twenty four percent see negative prospects saying authorities will only tighten the screws and another nineteen percent say nothing will change still the people are in the streets demanding political reforms release of political prisoners more employment opportunities and greater freedoms better ok and i could go back to washington are you want to finish off a point you made before going to the break go right ahead. yes. i want

a problem in this country is you out of stock we ought to start. and tentative so i doubt it especially because of its position i was there not to get us out of petroleum but also decided part of this country has had to let it go it's not well the stuck with this state been a key issue here yet at this point so i doubt it would be as more unstable than the ambassador would know this and has more unstable at this point and you time and the country's history so we are not we might have been stable lately and we are not supporting democracy we and this country have to make up our mind and stop go on and decide what this country stands for and it is a lot of democratic values and that is the key to stay ability and so doubt if you are on your part of the world all right maybe that maybe the americans will start living up to their own words in the region and they do there's some optimism i mean at least the u.s.

back up finally the people of egypt i know to the impasse that are here this friday at least according to a facebook account seventeen thousand saudis are going to have their day of rage on friday at the same time ten thousand saudi troops and police forces are moving into the east so it doesn't sound like the regime is interested in dialogue is it well they're interested in stability to start with and i think they're interested in a peaceful dialogue you have to be ready for whatever comes out they don't know what to expect none of us do we can't really predict it i will say this though king abdullah started the national center for dialogue several years ago he has built i think an institution out there is intent on finding dialogue between sunni and shia between male and female between young and old and i think we need to respect that effort hasn't gone far enough certainly not but it doesn't mean that they're not interested in dialogue merely because they have a security and police force. assembled for what is going to announce there's

a large rally ok if i'm going to have. bad habits die hard because just as we've pointed out through this program here is that i mean the use of force is the first reliance that regimes like this like to use and as we speak right now it's raging in libya people don't give up so easily it appears and there's no reason in the world why the the royal family and so you arabia is this going to say oh yeah we should sit down and have a dialogue that's hasn't happened well why would it happen now and then they're just going to tighten their grip because that's what they know best and their american friends have supported them all along. that's the problem with the american administration is you know when they heard the word they're low grade think everything is smallest and fine it's already there but you know what's the outcome of this. and the reforms and the grounds that nothing at all you know that very yellow is on the ground is completely different here you have more than one hundred twenty thousand young saudi who where if you created in the western united

states in particular they had the highest degree from from highly respectable universities they went back to their country they compare the two you know how the american adjourned democracy in going to human rights and enjoying transparency institutions and in their country it's called political country so this is this is the real problem is that their logo actually should tackle the demands of those people those people now they have they have bad tenets of media they have facebook they have the internet they are you know the freedom of expression outside that official outlets there so now they are saying you know why tunisia and managed to change very deem and reforms why there's a gyptian actually managed to change after thirty two years of ruling so we can't do it and if they don't want to change their family they wanted to be kind of constitutional monarchy not actually you know autocratic. as as as we have seen in have seen now so i think the problem is of the government there because matic

they're located is not actually deeply rooted there logue it's not actually reach some sort of understanding some sort of actually sets faction to that to the people themselves who are very very and have a lot of believe it as underground this is the problem that ambassador talking about beloki yes what what what happened after below we have elected parliament do we have actually reforms or do we have. to use the corruption do we have people participating and in order to turn in their very future and so this is the biggest question and now i think those people are going to. demonstrate in. saying look enough is enough we want our rights this is our wealth and this is our country we have to have a saying how this country should be run we should have a look at governors like everybody else ok again mr ambassador again with all due respect here i mean the americans certainly look like to playing the game catch up when it comes to democracy in the arab world is that because it's all about iran and about israel security everything else can go by the wayside all that snow in

oil to ok but you know oil iran israel that's what it's all about it democracy has never really been high on the agenda and that has been it's been lip service. well don't let me overstate it here but i think it's really about national interest and america's national interest is not the same as other countries' national interest certainly you have to have a reliable supply of oil to run an economy you have to have certain military capabilities you have to have certain geopolitical capabilities and you have to recognize who your allies are but having said that i go back again to what i think the bush administration should be proud of and frankly what i'm proud of and that is that we've got in their face we talked about human rights i have made speeches and had private discussions over the last eight or nine years saying what you teach in your schools and what you preach in your mosque is not an internal matter it's a matter of our national security and it's a matter what's right and wrong these are statements that i've made publicly and

there's a record of it so i think we've got to be fair on both sides here in that respect but clearly there's a national interest and clearly there's an issue about iran clearly there's an issue about oil and that's frankly wrapped into the concept of national interest which the president has sworn to uphold ok only if i go to you again as we sat down in this program here there's speculation that oil is going to go up to two hundred dollars a barrel i mean you know for all the reliance of the united states had on saudi arabia and opaque and all that two hundred dollar a barrel that's going to break any kind of global recovery i mean it's an amazing vicious circle because of oil and because of a medieval regime in the middle east and oh it's. i just i will i let me let me go back to what the ambassador said then tens of a national dentist did try get as we will we don't cloak and to decide all we need peebles the national interest to automate interest period and

this a globalized economy and spread out as i'm in that stadium is a much slower down to be as the bashing for both. we have to understand that our national interest is going to depend on what also the best interests of the show do people by continuing by continuing to support this absolute card agreements earlier rabia is not going to our national interest anymore and that's what bush and condoleezza rice said we should start. seeing that our national interest is going to depend up and stability and search and search and the gulf region as a whole and that stable if you can only come when the people of that country are the authors of their own destiny times have changed now if anything happens in saudi arabia and then of the oil prices. it can be

a catastrophe look to be a global economic recovery it will mirror quite sad and i now look like a picnic and frankly speaking and i am not for i'm the agins and why alliance but frankly speaking we should have acted much faster then we do know and look at me and i said you have two days three days to go. at this and we're all long disturbances in libya which is a creating problem with the oil prices and what never has happened we and this country have to go and the side of the people there out of people are they getting fourteenth century of oppression they hate our ships. and this is in your heart of people that we have to deal with and we've got to we've got to change we need to formulate a new policy kagan i chair

a page from what you just said and we go to washington here and what do we do this week we just heard that obama should have told gadhafi got three days to get out of guard shows so we should we say that to the royal family of saudi arabia yes i believe you know obama if he is going to say to the gaddafi you have two days to leave your office i think you should apply the same rules to the saudis would up like the same rules to other gulf states and kings you know he cannot actually just be hypocrite and selective and his enemies or his democratic actually drive so i think the situation in saudi arabia is worse than situation in tunisia for example on egypt at least in egypt you have a free press you have you know at least you know deliberately free press you have elected parliament with or we disagree with it or not you know if you have at least some sort of a civil society is there. and you know that that prosecution is above that religion

is to the minimum all of the unknown existence so you want to look at this the issues are dated as have been is no rule of law in that country and they make an administration always criticizing saudi arabia because of the lack of respect for other villages and also for the lack of democracy and i'm going to jump in here you might reverend out of time here but i'm sure we're going to come back to it a lot is happening in saudi arabia many thanks to my guest today in washington dubai and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk was. a good. story.

today violence is once again fled.