if you just joined a very warm welcome this is live from moscow top stories this violence between libya's pro and anti-government forces shows no sign of the thing with more than a thousand people now believed to be killed in weeks of fighting but the rival sides are united on one issue that opposition to foreign intervention. turmoil in north africa is driving thousands of illegal immigrants to seek refuge in europe and the british town of luton is already struggling to deal with the tensions between a large muslim community and angry nationalists. and russia's leader in the u.s.

vice president to find common ground on former stumbling blocks including most of his accession to the world trade organization and a missile defense system in europe and from a financial say ratified unknown to us to transit military equipment through russia on its way to afghanistan seen as another sign of progress in the reset of relations between the two. i'll be back with more developments more news in less than thirty minutes from now in the meantime cross-talk focuses on the place that saudi arabia occupies in the storm upon wresting gulf in the middle east and north africa debate next on our team. will. review the latest in science and technology from. we've got the future coverage. you can.

follow in welcome to cross talk i hear all about the growing sandstorm in the arab middle east as change sweeps the region to saudi arabia immune to outside influences u.s. president barack obama says he supports democracy and the aspirations of the people this is applied to the kingdom of saudi. king. to discuss the situation in saudi arabia i'm joined by ali alyami in washington he is the executive director of the center for democracy and human rights in saudi arabia in dubai we cross to robert jordan is a former u.s. ambassador to saudi arabia and now a baker botts and in london we go to a bill by the out one he is the editor of the al goods are the newspaper and

another member of our crosstalk team on the hunger all right gentlemen this is cross talk that news you can jump in anytime you want if i go to you mr ambassador in dubai how would you describe what's going on in saudi arabia right now in light of the uprisings and what some people are calling the arab the arab awakening in the region. i think there's a lot of anxiety right now and i just came back from a visit to both riyadh and the eastern province there is concern of course particularly about the shia they have rage that has been called for friday i think it remains to be seen and i thank you that will be but there's a tremendous amount of anxiety about us bolger about the lack of jobs to some degree about corruption and to some degree about just the basic competence of the government so there are. there are some are there i think could be ignited i think overall the king is very well beloved in saudi arabia and that's that's not a plus but there are many mixed signals coming out of saudi arabia right now i'm

going to you in london are the cows coming home to. coming back to kind of hands of the what we've seen in the region for the last forty years i mean this is been a coddled regime by the west particularly the united states i mean we hear president obama supporting democracy do you think you supports democracy in saudi arabia i don't believe he does support democracy is there any b.s. saudi arabia always like a holy cow to the american administration is and they would like to have a family to continue the new wood that of a lesion of human rights and bad because of freedoms there so that american old was actually grooming that saudi royals to last and they never listen to their grievances or the saudi people and the problem is not actually among the shia and the eastern problem is that the problem is among the young saudis that are fifty two percent of the saudi population under the age of twenty five so those people

with a duty to great deal of them will be paid in in the west and they can see that unemployment is more than twenty percent in one of the wealthiest country in the middle east so twenty percent that pop there you know unemployment this is excluding women because women are not allowed to work and old jobs just very selective sic there's over of that society so i believe this is the way. it is very tense and many people are really good i'm going there and they want changes took place i mean political changes that government in the king of saudi arabia who actually is a reformist until now he did not introduce reforms he still believes that he can bribe his people by giving them. salaries increases or by promising that are out of. work for for the people who are for housing benefit or something like that but political reforms is still far away and if i'm going in washington should the people of saudi arabia have the same freedoms that america and its

western allies claim should be for egyptians for tunisians for libyans i mean is is saudi arabia just so different and so separate and so exceptional. no sir i do agree with what ambassador jordan. most of what they say and it is not. this is a certainty people's issue especially to you with sixty seventy percent of this early but relation below the age of twenty five years old so this is a new generation of people are truly ambassador jordan and i discussed this briefly when he was he giving a talk here in washington d.c. had been. rushed on a russian plan and stick to it. so as not are exceptional of what's happening and out of all it is going to accomplish. one of the i made a cons like that whether the government like whether i like a thought or not. there is

a new generation of people who are rejecting that all value is the use of freely given as a as a tool of operation discrimination. expropriation rejecting one family or all. the surge in general this where would you people are a victim at this point and has been there are victims of struggle within the royal family itself you have someone oils. and i have who do and i want to change the status quo at all and have somebody like christiane how son and can grab the law and his daughters who are in favor of some cause my think. for him to shut people up if i went in this deal on families shows today i want to start listening to the people i will start a process of some kind of elections i will start the process of constitutional monarchy because that's the only way to save the country and to save the oil family

itself ok mr ambassador i mean a lot of the these ideas being floated about in people being imprisoned in saudi arabia for speaking out. just for the very idea is that in just mentioned here but there's still an enormous amount of written rigidity with it's also been mentioned this program bribing the people with such a huge aid package with thirty six thirty seven billion dollars again the exceptionalism because i mean the young people of saudi arabia see exactly what's going on in the region and they're aspiring it's somewhat they do the same thing but we don't see the royal family really giving much ground there i mean there's a conflict in down the road no matter how you look at it. i think there is a conflict in this one that they're going to have to pay attention to i would just say this about the financial package each year usually around december they come up with a financial package not unlike this they delayed this year because the king had been hospitalized after surgery and so while it looks like a bribe in a way this is

a program that they've instituted over the years and i've seen the kings emperors in solving some of the problems of poverty and so i don't think i would be quite as cynical about it but at the same token by the same token i think it's very important for us to recognize that we've had these discussions with the saudis for a number of years it's ironic in a way that the administration of george w. bush was perhaps the first to raise the freedom agenda i was in their face over issues related to human rights and religious freedom and freedom for women we finally at about the time i left office in two thousand and three talking ago and then the crown prince announced that they were going to start having elections for half their minister councils well that hasn't turned out as announced and they haven't gone forward with a larger program which i think is most unfortunate they need to get back with their program they need to start empowering the people and they need to start the building blocks of democracy you don't just have elections overnight but what they

need to do is have freedom of assembly greater freedom of the press freedom to speak out and freedom to dissent and not be thrown in jail for it if i go to you even in london i mean i guess i'm going to be very cynical right here is that the royal family doesn't have any need to change because it knows it's apologists in washington will back them to the wall it doesn't matter if it's about democracy it's about human rights it's about oil and what the saudi royal family wants it's going to get well actually yes i agree with you but you cannot the law and american support for whatever iraqis must be robotic he was that close that starlight will be united states and he signed peace treaties with israeli all maintain them and he was a peace broker listening to. an american dictations and you know he was a good boy this played that the american could do nothing for him to keep him in car when the people revolted against his energy the same thing applies to the saudi yes the american are very happy with their relation with the saudi the saudi arabia

for example where there is shortage of export from media they increase their production toll more than one million barrel a day it is true also of a saudi help american to remove saddam hussein from power but the saudi people are the people who can decide the future of the united states foreign policy in the region and also that you know the existence of the strength of their royal family gene so i think that american should push very hard on the saudi royal family not now but long term mogul to be for itself to actually reform to put an end to the corruption put in state the rule of law i just underlined is that all offload the equality the justice that that transparency that election election not only that i'm going to simple council but also that you know the parliament the we need our parliament there's a very bitter present of people and we need a constitutional of one of the key they're not actually the royal family contrary controlling every drop every in benghazi every. business so we have to you know

to to consider the saudi people personally i was shocked when i am going to have seen king abdullah of saudi arabia visiting the shanty towns around but he actually could not walk because of the sewage industry it's also he was shocked to see him give that which is the biggest the second biggest city is already via a drowning and flood simply because there is no sewage system there and many people were killed because of that so i think that american lifted too late for the saudi people for the saudi eager ruling family to say to them look enough is enough you have to care about your people and if i go to you in washington that's a very good point here because in looking at all of these regimes that are failed are failing or will. feel in the arab world that the united states is critical you just focused in on dictators elites and forgotten about the people and you think that's the same process as we just heard from washington is that washington is never really seen the people of all due respect of the ambassador on the program its focus has always been the regime in keeping it in place and i live here in

washington and have lived for a while in the states and i have. you know the administration and. you go to then have you know and be able at the top positions in that administration and frankly speaking i don't think i'm not an apologist for the american government i think we got some lousy things in the middle east including supporting dictators but to think that there are major. ministrations at least all that appealing. about appealing every day they push they push this idea government gordon is absolutely i wish administration did more coppa more democracy and out of board and the administration in this country and publicly what we need to fundraise and obama and clinton as to do exactly what bush said publicly support the people already and i'm going to join me right here we're going to go to a short break here and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on

saudi arabia stay with our. the observed nature and discovery speed. the communication with the wild. test yourself and become free from. see what nature can give you cannot see. the impact. the needs. and the radium

in day intensive the number of or the party goes to springfield artists. most dangerous. radiation that exists in the nature. of cars in the vicinity of known differentiated so produce is so much the genetic changes including the cancer leukemia. why didn't they muses the fleas don't have to have a college degree going to have to play for an education to understand. if you spread radioactive materials all over somebody's backyard that you got a problem. on from taking a seat. on the roof. welcome back to rostock on peter lavelle tree mind you were discussing the current

situation in saudi arabia the i'm going to. say. but first let's see what political outcomes russians expect for the arab world why don't more infected well the people of saudi arabia catch the flu. leaving the arab world cyber activists in the country are calling for demonstrations on march eleventh and twenty you could amend change and they can get the russian public opinion research center asked citizens what could be the outcome of mass demonstrations in the middle east thirty eight percent believe in positive changes and think listen to the people twenty four percent see negative prospects saying authorities will only tighten the screws and another nineteen percent say nothing will change still people are in the streets to demand political reforms release of political prisoners more important opportunity and greater freedoms better ok and i

didn't back to washington are you want to finish off a point you made before going to the break go right ahead. yes. a lot of problem in this country is you out of stock we ought to start with the state ability and so without a doubt specialty because of its position i was there not to get bring us out of petroleum but also at this time thought of this country has had quality it was not well to stick with the statement it key issue here yet at this point so i doubt it as more unstable and then by so that i would know this it has more unstable at this point and you time and a country's history so we are not. stabile eighty and we are not supporting democracy we and this country you have to have a lot of mind and stop go on and decide what this country stands for want to and it is a lot of democratic values and that is the key. and so doubt if you are on your part

of the world all right maybe that maybe the americans will start living up to their own words in the region in the view there's some optimism i mean least the u.s. backed up finally the people of egypt by going to the ambassador here this friday at least according to a facebook account seventeen thousand saudis what are we are going to have their day of rage on friday at the same time ten thousand saudi troops and police forces are moving into the east so it doesn't sound like the regime is interested in dialogue is it well they're interested in stability to start with and i think you're interested in a peaceful dialogue you have to be ready for whatever comes up they don't know what to expect none of us do we can't really predict it i will say this they were paying a bill or started the national center for dialogue several years ago he has built i think an institution out that is intent on finding dialogue between sunni and shia between male and female between young and old and i think we need to respect that

effort has it gone far enough certainly not but it doesn't mean that they're not interested in dialogue merely because they have security and police force. assembled for what has been announced as a large rally ok if i'm going to have. bad habits die hard because just as we've pointed out through this program here is that i mean the use of force is the first reliance that regimes like this like to use and as we speak right now it's raging in libya people don't give up so easily it appears and there's no reason in the world why the the royal family and so you radio is this going to say oh yeah we should sit down and have a dialogue that hasn't happened what why would it happen now i mean they're just going to tighten their grip because that's what they know best and their american friends have supported them all along. yeah that's the problem with the american administration is you know when they heard the word bellow getting everything is small with and fine and so there you go you know what's the outcome of this. and

informs them the ground nothing at all you know that they yell at is on the ground it's completely different here you have more than one hundred twenty thousand young saudi who where if you created in the western united states in particular they had the highest degree from from highly respectable universities they went back to their country they compare that to you know how the american adjourned democracy in going to who might arise and going transparency. and in their country it's completely corrupt country so this is the real problem that they're logout and should tackle the demands of those people those people now they have they have the planet of media they have that facebook grab the internet they have you know the freedom of expression outside of outlets there so now they are saying you know why tunisia and managed to change very dean and to have reforms why there's a gyptian actually manage to change energy after thirty two years of ruling so we can't do it and if they don't want to change their family they wanted to be can call constitutional monarchy not actually and you know autocratic monarchy as as as

we have seen in our scene now so i think the problem is the government there it is cosmetically their logo it is not actually bellowed it's not actually reach some sort of understanding some sort of actually satisfaction to that to the people themselves who are very very have a lot of grievances and their ground this is the problem of the talking about their local ok yes rotten luck what happened after the yellow do we have elected parliament do we have actually reforms or do we have. to use the corruption that we have people participating in that in order to turn in their very future and so this is the biggest question and now i think those people are going to. demonstrate in. streets saying look enough is enough we want our rights this is our wealth and this is our country we have to have a saying how this country should be run we should have a look at governance like everybody else ok again mr ambassador again with all due

respect here i mean the americans certainly look like they're playing the game catch up when it comes to democracy in the arab world is that because it's all about iran and about israel security everything else can go by the wayside oh let's throw in oil too ok but you know oil iran israel that's what it's all about it democracy has never really been high on the agenda if it has been it's been lip service. well don't let me overstate it here but i think it's really about national interest and america's national interest is not the same as other countries' national interest certainly you have to have a reliable supply of oil to run an economy you have to have certain military capabilities you have to have certain geopolitical capabilities and you have to recognize your allies are but having said that i go back again to what i think bush administration should be proud of and frankly what i'm proud of and that is that we got in their face i would talk about human rights i have made speeches and had private discussions are for the last eight or nine years saying what you teach in

your schools and what you preach in your mosque is not an internal matter it's a matter of our national security and it's a matter what's right and wrong these are statements that i've made publicly and there's a record of it so i think we've got to be fair on both sides here in that respect but clearly there is a national interest and clearly there's an issue about iran clearly there's an issue about a world and that's frankly wrapped into the concept of national interest which the president has sworn to uphold can we find her you can as we sat down in this program here there's speculation that oil is going to go up to two hundred dollars a barrel i mean you know for all the reliance of the united states had on. saudi arabia and opec and all that two hundred dollar a barrel that's going to break any kind of global recovery i mean it's an amazing vicious circle because of oil and because of a medieval regime in the middle east and oh it's. i guess i will i let me let me go back to what the ambassador said the intent of national dentist if i

did he is we we don't cloak and to these so it would be people's national interest all of it interests he it and this globalized economy and spread it out as i'm a big stadium is a much so down again as the bashing for both. we have to understand that our national interest is going to depend on what also the best interests of the showed you. by continuing by continuing to support this absolute undercover g.m. in surrey there are a bia is not going to say that of our national interest anymore and that's what bush and clinton is on i said we should start. seeing that our national interest is going to depend up on the state insert and show it out a bit under gulf region as a whole and stipulate it can only come one day people of that country are the authors of their own destiny and times have changed now if anything happens and

shirley al-arabiya and ted and of the oil prices it can be a catastrophe look to the grow economic recovery it will may of course happen and i like a picnic. and frankly speaking and i am not formally agins and violence but frankly speaking we should have acted might faster then we do know and look at me and said you have two days three days to go had we done that this is a brawl long this ted wells has in libya which is a creating the problem of the oil prices at work never has haven't we and this country have to go and the side of the people there our people are really getting fourteenth century of operation. and

this is in your heart of people that we have to deal with and we've got to we've got to king we need to formulate a new policy. chair a page from what you just said i'm going to go to washington here but what do we do this week we just heard that obama should have told gadhafi got three days to get out the guards we should we say that to the royal family of saudi arabia yes i believe you know obama if he is going to say to you have to leave your office i think you should apply the same rules to the saudi hundred apply the same rules to other gulf states and kings you know he cannot actually just be hypocrite and selective and his enemies or his democratic actually drive so i think the situation in saudi arabia is worse than the situation in tunisia for example or an egypt at least in egypt you have a free press you have you know or at least you know the only privily free press you

have elected parliament with or we disagree with it or not you know if you have at least some sort of a civil society is there you know that prosecutions of other religion is the minimum all being lonely existence so but that you're going to look at the story issues are very bad as i said there is no room. all of lho in that country and they make an administration always criticizing so in any event because of the lack of respect for other villages and also for the lack of cooperation and i'm going to jump in here you might have run out of time here but i'm sure we're going to come back to it a lot is happening in saudi arabia many thanks to my guest today in washington dubai and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember crossed our borders. and you. still. want.