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com. keep the store. listen to. the play. below in welcoming rostock i'm peter all about the growing sand storm in the arab middle east has changed sweeps the region to saudi arabia and new and outside influences u.s. president barack obama says he supports democracy and the aspirations of the people does this apply to the kingdom of saudi. can. live. to discuss his situation in saudi arabia i'm joined by ali alyami in washington he is the executive director of the center for democracy and human rights in saudi arabia in dubai we cross to robert jordan is a former u.s. ambassador to saudi arabia and now we take our bots and in london we go to bill body out one is the editor of the al goods i b newspaper and another member of our

cross talk team. the hunger all right gentlemen this is crosstalk that means you can jump in anytime you want if i go to you mr ambassador in dubai could how would you describe what's going on in saudi arabia right now in light of the uprisings and what some people are calling the arab the arab awakening in the region. i think there's a lot of anxiety right now and i just came back from a visit to both riyadh and the eastern province there is concern of course particularly about the shia day of rage that has been called for friday i think it remains to be seen how thank you that will be but there's a tremendous amount of anxiety about the youth bulge about the lack of jobs to some degree about corruption and to some degree about just the basic competence of the government so there are there are some there are some bright chambre there are things could be ignited i think overall the king is very well beloved in saudi arabia and that's that's on the plus side but there are many mixed signals coming

out of saudi arabia right now i'm going to you in london are the cows coming home to do to coming back to kind of haunt the what we've seen in the region for the last forty years i mean this is been a coddled regime by the west particularly the united states i mean we hear president obama supporting democracy do you think he supports democracy in saudi arabia i don't believe he does support democracy is there any b.s.o. there a.b.l. was like a holy cow for the american administration is they would like to that family to continue the new bad that you know of a legion of human rights that bad because of freedoms there so that american old was actually grooming as i'll be royals to last and then have a listen to their grievances of the saudi people and the problem is not that actually among the shia in the eastern province that the problem is among the young saudis there are fifty two percent of the saudi population under the age of twenty five so those people really do keep it all one great deal of them where you can in

the west and they can see that unemployment is more than twenty percent in one of the wealthiest country in the middle east so twenty percent there pop where you know unemployment this is it's including women because women are not allowed to work and old jobs just very selective sic there's over of that society so i believe this is the lead. very many people are really good i'm playing there and they want changes to be placed i mean political team is that government that i mean the king of saudi arabia who actually is a reformist until now he did not introduce proper reforms he still believes that he can bribe his people by giving them. salaries increases or by or promising that. they're set in the world for the people who are for housing benefit or something like that but for the political reforms it's still far away i mean if i go to an washington should the people of saudi arabia have the same freedoms that

america and its western allies claim should be for egyptians for chinese ins for libyans i mean is is saudi arabia just so different and so separate and so exceptional. no i do agree with what ambassador jordan. annoyed on top on most of what they say and it is not shy it's issue this is a people's issue especially in the u.s. sixty seventy percent of the relation below the age of twenty five years old so this is a new generation of people are truly ambassador to jordan and i discussed this briefly when he was he gave a talk in washington d.c. or russia on a washington institute. so that it has another exception on what's happening in there out of all it is going to accomplish. one of the i made a cons like a twat of a certain about a month like a twelve hour i like to talk to my. it is

a when you get a shot of people who are a good thing they're all value the use of any given as a tool of oppression and discrimination and. expropriation they are rejecting one family all. the surge in general this showed you people are a victim at this point and has been there are victims of struggle within the royal family itself you have some royals. and not of who do not want to change the status quo at all and have somebody like that is turned on her son and can go out the law and has daughters who are in favor of some cause my think. reform to shut people up and file it in this deal on families shows today i want to start to listen include a piece of all i was starting a process of some kind of elections i would start a process of constitutional monarchy because that's the only way to save the

country and to several family itself ok mr ambassador i mean a lot of the these ideas being floated about in people being imprisoned in saudi arabia for speaking out. just for the very ideas that have been just mentioned here but there's still an enormous amount of written rigidity with it's also been mentioned this program bribing the people with such a huge aid package like thirty six thirty seven billion dollars again the exceptionalism because i mean the young people of saudi arabia see exactly what's going on in the region and they're aspiring it's somewhat they do the same thing but we don't see the royal family really giving much ground there i mean there's a conflict in the in down the road no matter how you look at it. i think there is a conflict in this one that they're going to have to pay attention to i would just say this about the financial package each year usually around the summer they come up with a financial package not unlike this they delayed this year because the king had been hospitalized after surgery and so while it looks like a bribe in

a way this is a program that they've instituted over the years and i've seen the king's interest in solving some of the problems of poverty and so i don't think i would be quite as cynical about it but at the same token by the same token i think it's very important for us to recognize that we've had these discussions with the saudis for a number of years it's ironic in a way that the administration of george w. bush was perhaps the first to raise the freedom agenda i was in their face over issues related to human rights religious freedom and freedom for women we finally at about the time i left office in two thousand and three talking ago and then the crown prince announced that they were going to start having elections for half their municipal councils well that hasn't turned out as announced and they haven't gone forward with a larger program which i think is most unfortunate they need to get back with that program they need to start empowering to people and they need to start the building blocks of democracy you don't just have elections overnight but what they need to

do is have freedom of assembly greater freedom of the press freedom to speak out and freedom to dissent and not be thrown in jail for it if i go to you and in london and i guess i'm going to be very cynical right here is that the royal family doesn't have any need to change because it knows it's apologists in washington will back to the wall it doesn't matter if did it's about democracy it's about human rights it's about oil and what the saudi royal family wants it's going to get. well actually yes i agree with you but you cannot rely on american support for ever knew about or called egypt he was the closest ally of the united states and he signed peace treaties with israeli or maintain them and he was a peace broker listening to the american patients and you know he was a good boy despite that the american could do nothing to him to keep him in power when the people revolted against his religion they same thing applies to all the saudi yes the american are very happy with their relation with the saudi the saudi

arabia of for example one of the shortage of export from media they've increase their production to more than nine million barrel a day it is through also the saudi help america and to remove saddam was in from power by the saudi people are the people who can decide the future of the united states foreign policy in the region and also about you know the existence of the strength of their royal family so i think that american should push very hard on this i'll get a family not now but long time ogle to reform itself to actually respond to put an end to the corruption to instate the rule of law i just underlined is there all of low the equality the justice that that transparency that election election not only them on a civil council but also that you know the parliament the we need our parliament there's a very good to represent the people and we need a constitutional of one of the key they're not actually the royal family contrary controlling every drop every investor and they see every. business so we have to

consider the saudi people personally i was shocked when i am going to have seen the love so they're visiting the shanty towns around riyadh and he actually could not walk because of the sewage industry it's also he was shocked to see injured there which is the biggest second biggest city in saudi arabia and the rounding and flood simply because there is no sewage system there and many people were killed killed were. because of that so i think that american lifted too late for the saudi people for the saudi even ruling family to say to them look enough is enough you have to care about your people only if i go to you in washington that's a very good point here because in looking at all these regimes that are failed are failing or will fail in the arab world that the united states is particularly just focused in on dictators elites and forgotten about the people and you think that's the same process as we just heard from washington is that washing is never really seen the people at all due respect to be ambassador on the program its focus has

always been the regime in keeping it in place and i live here in washington and have it for a while in the states and i have. you know the administration that i go to and have said you know would be about the top positions in that ministry and frankly speaking i don't think i'm not an apologist for the american government i think we've got lots of lousy things in the middle east including support. but i think that the american ministrations at least got a plea or probably a day they push they push this idea government by saddam gordon is absolutely bush administration did more to promote democracy and our board and the administration in this country and bob literally they're going to need to for andre's and obama and clinton is to do exactly what bush said publicly support the people already and i mean right here we're going to do a short break here and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on

saudi arabia stay with art. and. observe nature and discover is buzy. the communicate with the wild. test yourself and become free and. see what nature can give you the nazi. wealthy british style stock.

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discussing the current situation in saudi arabia kuwait taken against stupid. but first let's see what political outcomes russians expect for the arab world. one more infected while the people of saudi arabia kicks the fool sweeping the arab world cyber activists in the country are calling for demonstrations on march eleventh and twenty two to demand change and they kinda the russian public opinion research center asked citizens what could be the outcome of western astray sions in the middle east thirty eight percent believe in positive changes and think authorities will listen to the people twenty four percent see negative prospects saying authorities will only tighten the schools and another nineteen percent say nothing will change so the people are in the streets to demand political reforms release of political

prisoners more employment opportunities and greater freedoms but peter ok i did go back to washington are you want to finish off a point you made before going to the break go right ahead. yes. a lot of problem in this country is you're out of stock we're out of stock what the state. of so without a bad specialty because of its position i was there not to get rid us of petroleum but also i decided part of this country has had political islam well just like with this statement that he issue here yet at this point so the idea is more unstable than the ambassador would notice it is more unstable at this point and your time and the country's history so we are not. going to stay below eighty and we are not supporting democracy we and this country have to make a lot of myint and stop go along and decide what this country stands for and it is

a lot of the american i think values and that is the key. and we are i mean part of the world all right maybe that maybe the americans will start living up to their own words in the region in the view there's some optimism i mean least the u.s. backed up finally the people of egypt i know to the impasse that are here this friday at least according to a facebook account seventeen thousand saudis are going to have their day of rage on friday at the same time ten thousand saudi troops and police forces are moving into the east so it doesn't sound like the regime is interested in dialogue is it well they're interested in stability to start with and i think they're interested in a peaceful dialogue you have to be ready for whatever comes out they don't know what to expect none of us do we can't really predict i will say this though king abdullah started the national center for dialogue several years ago he has built i think an institution out there is intent on finding dialogue between sunni and shia

between male and female when young and old and i think we need to respect that effort has gone far enough certainly not but it doesn't mean that they're not interested in dialogue name merely because they have security and police force. assembled for what has been announced as a large rally ok if i'm going to have a bad habits die hard because just as we've pointed out through this program here is that i mean the use of force is the first reliance that regimes like this like to use and as we speak right now it's raging in libya people don't give up so easily it appears and there's no reason in the world why the the royal family and so you arabia is this going to say oh yeah we should sit down and have a dialogue that hasn't happened what why would it happen now i mean they're just going to tighten their grip because that's what they know best and their american friends have supported them all along. that is the problem with the american administrations you know when they have the word bellow getting everything is small

with and finally saudi arabia but you know what's the outcome of this. and any reforms in the grounds that nothing at all even that very yellow is on the ground is completely different here you have more than one hundred twenty thousand young saudi who where if you created in the western united states in particular they have the highest degree from from highly respectable universities they went back to their country. the tool you know how the american adjourned democracy and going to human rights and enjoying transparency institutions and in their country it's completely corrupt country so this is the real problem is that their logo actually should tackle the demands of those people those people now they have they have the advantage of media they have their facebook grab the internet they have you know the freedom of expression outside the official outlets there so now they are saying you know why tunisia and manage to change very deem and to have reforms why does gyptian actually manage to change energy after two years of ruling so we can't do

it and if they don't want to change their the royal family they wanted to be can call it constitutional monarchy not actually you know autocratic monarchy as as as we have seen in have seen now so i think the problem is of the government there is cosmetically and there look it is not actually deeply rooted delegates not actually reach some sort of understanding some sort of actually satisfaction to that to the people themselves who are very very have a lot of grievances and their ground this is the problem of the talking about their local ok yes what what what happened after the yellow do we have elected parliament do we have actually reforms or do we have. reduced the corruption do we have people participating in that in order to turn in their very future and so this is the biggest question and now i think those people are going to. demonstrate in. saying look enough is enough we want our rights this is our wealth and this is our country we have to have a saying how this country should be run we should have good governance like

everybody else ok again mr ambassador again with all due respect here i mean the americans certainly look like they're playing the game catch up when it comes to democracy in the arab world is that because it's all about iran and about israel security everything else can go by the wayside oh let's throw in oil too ok but you know oil iran israel that's what it's all about it democracy has never really been high on the agenda if it has been it's been lip service. well don't let me overstate it here but i think it's really about national interest and america's national interest is not the same as other countries' national interest certainly you have to have a reliable supply of oil to run an economy you have to have certain military capabilities and you have to have certain geopolitical capabilities and you have to recognize your allies are but having said that i go back again to what i think bush administration should be proud of and frankly what i'm proud of and that is that we got interface and we talked about human rights i have made speeches and i had

private discussions are for the last eight or nine years saying what you teach in your schools and what you preach in your mosque is not an internal matter it's a matter of our national security and it's a matter what right. these are statements that i've made publicly and there's a record of that so i think we've got to be fair on both sides here in that respect but clearly there is a national interest and clearly there's an issue about iran clearly there's an issue about oil and that's frankly wrapped into the concept of national interest which the president has sworn to uphold ok ali if i go to you again as we sat down in this program here there's speculation that oil is going to go up to two hundred dollars a barrel i mean you know for all the reliance of the united states had on. saudi arabia and opec and all that two hundred dollar a barrel that's going to break any kind of global recovery i mean it's an amazing vicious circle because of oil and because of a medieval regime in the middle east and. i just i would let

me let me go back to what the ambassador said the intent of the national interest it is we we don't want to look and to the side it would be people's national interest all of it anticipating it and at this globalized economy and spread of thought out of them a big stadium is a much sir down to be as the bashing for both. we have to understand that our national interest is going to depend on what also the best interests of the showed you. by continuing by continuing to support this up so you it. is not going to share our national interest anymore and that's what bush and condemn his allies said we should start. seeing that our national interest is going to depend up and stay ability and search and search and the gulf region as a whole and that's stable if you can only come when the people of that country are

the authors of their own destiny and times have changed now if anything happens in saudi arabia and ten of the oil prices it can be a catastrophe to the growth will economic recovery it will mirror what's happened under like a picnic. and frankly speaking and i am not for. violence but frankly speaking we should have acted mike faster then we do know and. you have two days three days to go had we done that and this is a brawl long disturbances in libya which is a creating problem with the oil prices at work never has haven't we and this country have to go and this side of the a.p. and all the our people are at a get think fourteen century of operation educate our ships and your money.

and this is in your heart of the world that we have to deal with and we've got to we've got to change we need to formulate a new policy. from what you just said i'm going to go to washington here but what do we do this week we just heard that obama should have told good after he got three days to get out the guard we should we say that to the royal family of saudi arabia yes i believe you know obama if he is going to say to look at that you have to be to leave your office i think you should apply the same rules to the saudi hundred apply the same rules to other gulf states and around kings given he cannot actually just be hypocrite and selective and his enemies or his democratic actually drive so i think the situation in saudi arabia is worse than the situation in tunisia for example or in egypt at least in egypt you have

a free press you have you know at least you know the free press you have elected parliament whether we disagree with it or not you know if you have at least some sort of a civil society is there you know that prosecutions of other religion is the minimum all would be in an existence so that you would look at this through issues or there may be either said there is no room. all of lho in that country and they knew that american administration always criticizing sort of anybody because of the lack of respect for other villages and also for the lack of cooperation and i'm going to jump in here you might have run out of time here but i'm sure we're going to come back to it a lot of happening in saudi arabia many thanks to my guest today in washington divine and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk was. taken.

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