for the we've got it's. the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers on. down have lost cadences parts of japan are being swamped by a may just an army after being struck by the country's strongest earthquake on record more than sixty all of their families and the fleeing to higher ground to escape the considerable damage there have been several powerful aftershocks in the entire pacific region is on tsunami and. in all the news heavy fighting is being reported in libya as colonel gadhafi supporters try to force rebels down to

key areas the locals warn that media exaggeration is stoking foreign intervention while nato and leaders hold more emergency talks. next with cross talk and state he and his guests debate what's at stake in the only growing crisis in the arab world. will. remain you the latest in science and technology from around the world. we go to the future. can.

chloe and welcomed across town peter lavelle the new middle east in the making as the west gotten past its focus on security over democracy in the region and has the west particularly washington learned anything about the process of change in the arab middle east over the past three months. can. you discuss the events in the arab world i'm joined by belak slifer in cairo he's a professor emeritus at the american university in cairo in paris we have siad my job he is a professor of middle east studies at the american university of paris and in washington we cross to rich galen he's a republican strategist and former press secretary to dan quayle and another member of our crosstalk team gail on the hunt all right gentlemen this is process this means you can jump in anytime you want i don't like to get you to do you a not cairo first we just heard that nato is still thinking about a no fly zone over libya it's going to take

a little bit more time to think about it but they are thinking about it so is that in mind the events that have gone on in the country that you're in right now in egypt tunisia and what's going on in the gulf has american foreign policy adjusted in western foreign policy adjusted enough to the changes that are occurring in the region well on a rhetorical level they have a just rhetorical the president united states has spoken out very much about sympathy with the urge for. overthrowing the authoritarian regimes having to put on the actual field of action. you know doing some relief work for the. libyan it to help please gyptian expatriate workers get out of libya but they have not been certainly are not playing a leading role in the say in standing by this new movement the french are the first who have recognized the national council of the libyan insurgents who are fighting

khadafy not the americans and the french have spoken out very clearly that they favor a no fly zone and the americans have said will so on the table everything's on the table all the secretary of defense was very negative in his remarks about it just a few days ago so i would say rhetorical e they've adopted but in terms of actual. terms of x. action. practice you know i don't see any alteration right let's go to paris the out if you're a regular is ok i'm going to paris real quick here then if i can ask you a lot of people are looking for conspiracy theories in one night and what's going on in the these movements in the in the greater middle east in the arab world specifically here but one could also say the americans and western capitals really don't really have much of an idea what to do and i definitely agree with the fact that what's happened in many arab countries surprised everyone there is a reversible phenomenon now due to urbanization to the fact that there is

a large youth population in the region aspiring for freedoms for democracy for dignity the role of communication and of social virtual connections through twitter facebook you tube and many other facilities i think there is something new now and the accumulation of years of this partisan are just operating with the. with the wall of fear being destroyed by all these pieces built in the public places in the streets in their sense of humor and the in their determination to and with the last decades of this partisan and corruption in the arab world the western capital are just behaving or are reacting slowly even if hopefully they will continue welcoming these kind of changes and trying to build the new relationships with the arab world but in what concerned i think the reactions are slow the brutality of the qaddafi regime is not faced by

a very firm positions and clear messages and i think the knife no fly zone should have been discussed weeks ago as much as other things should have also been discussed and measures should be taken more and more to and with his attacks on his population which were in washington what do you think about that is washington reacting quickly enough as it understand the processes that are going on here is a valid point how is this did you know this kind everybody flat footed but for a lot of regional specialists they would have said we told you so. well everybody can say that now but i mean you know in a hundred years they have that young man that set himself on fire in tunisia may you know go down with with the guy that shot the archduke ferdinand is as this has a spark that nobody thought was going to be a spark but nobody nobody saw this all coming anybody i want to see the writings of people who said this was going to happen six months ago or even months ago i just don't believe it but from the u.s. court of view there's a couple of things and i'm not speaking for all three hundred million americans i'm

speaking for one. on the one hand i'm not sure what the national interest is to the u.s. in interfering in in what's going on in libya the much less i mean if need to wants to institute a no fly zone he'd be interesting to see under what authority the they do that there is we may not like the government but there is a government there on the other hand i think there is not one movement going on i would if you look at what's going on across in bahrain that is much i think more a sectarian issue between the shias and the sunni's than it is. a rebellion against an autocratic government which is not frankly well that are now thought of authoritarian although there is a obviously a. an economic difference so so i'm not sure this is all one movement i think they

were are people are taking advantage and i use that in a positive way taking advantage vantage of the situation as they find it to try to effect change it to their benefit but what's going on in libya is certainly not at all the same as what's going on in sable crane though if i go to you in cairo again i mean we just heard national interest and presumably american nationalist interest but for the last forty years america had not a national interest of having dictators in the arab world and now that is coming to an end so i kind of go back to my question though i mean america's never. been really prepared for any democratic arab world because they never thought about it or never really wanted this right i mean if you i don't think that's correct if you go back to the bush doctrine i mean he specifically we've heard a lot about the bush doctrine in the past invasions of countries illegally on top dollar go ahead you know exactly i mean all different we can only talk about me and my money variance or what it's the sort of dollars go ahead doc said we're going to tell him go to the insect in cairo and we i mean i wish the action was specifically

aimed at trying to promote democracy is he still the post derogatory even he cited for sale ok the dollar go right ahead well i wrote what you're asking for added what do you think a no fly zone is this using force i think i mean the answer no fly zone of dollars please go ahead. look the the the difference let's see what's so strange and odd about this is that we went into iraq. number one under. false pretenses right. you can argue well we didn't know that they were false but they were false and we went in despite the hostility of the entire arab world unlike nine hundred ninety one when we were part of a larger lions with syria iraq wrote egypt all contributing troops it was an alliance with arabs to save kuwait you know to liberate kuwait from saddam hussein from militant iraq from iraq from saddam hussein in one thousand nine hundred one

all right and that had a broad arab the least the arab states were backing us now we went directly in invading. iraq after nine eleven we had the whole arab population the arab street as you would want to say the arab public opinion was against us and not a single arab state sit alongside with us and yet we intervene there now here you have libya on the other hand we are arab sentiment i would say just judging from egypt and the fact that i see libyan flags being sold on the streets now as the by libyan flags i mean the old libyan flag which has been resurrected by the insurgents as a symbol against the flag that gadhafi introduced and i see them being sold everywhere now in cairo is what it is i've said yourself be nice to see it get a libyan flag and i have a feeling that the insurgents have massive support especially among the young people who constitute the majority of the arab world now and and yet i am the only

one of you are they going over to help out or if you are you know egyptians going to get in cars and flame going over to help out where they have been running medical supplies aren't there visibly how good they are whether that's the sort of money well that's a very different issue but what if they are so well will any of this let them let them put themselves in the sand we have there against humanity what again we have a guest and then if i go to you one of the reasons what i'm trying to get at this question is that because. west has a dilemma in dealing with this issue because because i can see the pros and cons of all of this but at the same time does the west here because you could see other people in the arab world saying see they're determining outcomes again and that's why it's the legacy for that is that it creates a lot of inspiration hearings. i did not hear everything that was said because there were two i didn't. ok but. i think there are sort of clear clarifications that are needed we cannot put everything together in egypt and

saying that each is different and just simplifying issues as was done i think in back when there are definitely vertical divisions in the society between the shia and the sunni but this is not the under reason for what we are seeing today there is a democracy deficit and all serious studies show that in yemen there are also some vertical divisions that are not confessional between sunni and shia that could have some tribal aspects between the north under south but also there is a great democracy deficit the huge one in libya today what is happening is not a civil war or just a movement of rebellion that is using violence against the regime there is a. very this part they can criminal regime in place since nine hundred sixty nine and that has been involved in many crimes inside libya and outside libya personally i'm not asking and i'm not interested in an american clear causation or the french

because we are talking about the u.n. system about the international community that has the legitimacy and has the obligation to intervene in these kind of situations but it garners of the double standards of the bush administration or of the obama administration or of the french administration of or of most of the other broad inspiration's who are also hold out of administrations also have their own double standards i'm saying that in the real politics definitely this exists but the united nations should have based on its bylaws based on the legal ations on resolutions on the international humanitarian law and geneva conventions and there are set of things that are that have been marginalized for decades and i think this is a crucial moment to bring them back and we have to jump in here gentlemen we're going. sharp break and when we come back we'll go to read chapter a short break we'll continue our discussion on the uprisings in the arab world stay with our see. the slum can

see. some other. plenty. plenty. more news today violence is once again flared up the from these are the images the world has been seeing from the streets of canada. for asians are. the lucky. for the full slum we've made some of the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers. play in the story. come

up with. the plug welcome back across sometimes people come to mind you were talking about the changes going on in the arab world. plugged in to the spirit of the celebs. but first let's see how russians view of the events in the arab world. the political crisis in the arab world had been shaking the world for almost three months people in the streets of arab capitals protest calling for democracy is ation of their societies still many believe demonstrators mostly expressed publicly is content rather than clear political goals the russian public opinion research center all citizens what drives the rest in the region forty five percent see poverty unemployment and hunger and the root fourteen percent believe people are dissatisfied with long ruling leaders thirteen

percent say rigidity of authoritarian regimes in flames the people and eight percent think it is all because of corruption however the political implications of the protests should not be underestimated as it is not clear what role extremist forces play in this turbulent region peter. ok richard school you were made before the break you wanted to jump in there so you have an opportunity you do it right now going well i want to talk a little bit about that about my friend in paris is the love for the u.n. if they could go through the khadafi regime has been so horrible for so long and i agree it has been horrible for a long time then we're we're have the other arab states been we're of the other the across the magreb and through the middle east the african union know everybody wants somebody else to do it there not only that but the u.n. is allowed libya libya to have a seat on the un the u.n. human rights council for lo these many years just the other day they finally got

around to suspending them from it but the u.n. is is is it's fine to have it we pay a lot you pay a lot everybody pays a lot to keep it there i think it's fine to have it but anybody who thinks that the u.n. can somehow solve these kinds of fast these kinds of brushfires that spring up around the world and have any kind of impact is reading a different history than i've read here don't if i go to you in cairo maybe reacted . it reaches there well where was the consensus against the heat of the regimes well most of the regimes were paid off by washington so i guess that's why there wasn't much of a consensus there maybe now we have an opportunity for a new government's new peoples to be able to speak the will of their own people on the ground and things might be a bit different i think we all hope they will be go ahead well i think what you can say is that we. did not. protest against the battles our outrages prior to this regime is that she had something in common with them and i don't think it's us funding because some of those regimes didn't have us

when they were needed i mean it's egypt that was is the one that's been drawing tremendous money from the united states for certainly not other countries like nigeria you know but they all shared together was authoritarian systems and a demographic problem of young people whom is no work because this is not been the great concern and you know all those issues that the russian public mentioned are interesting because they're all true and they all intersect there's a connection between corruption and the fact that you don't have or viable economies growing and the lack of north korean system which makes the corruption that much easier and sold me all of the reasons they mention including the first reason which is power we forget that that this all started as a protest of the combination of poverty and police brutality the poverty that there was this university graduate high school graduate whatever in tunis. and then his

in his stressed ration with the police not letting him admit a simple living selling lettuce and tomatoes in the street hours and the same here what preceded the tar here square and we've lost sight of this because so much attention has been focused on the political but what preceded that tucker your square revolution you want to call it was the fact that there's been tremendous unrest in the industrial cities of egypt outside of cairo which had been broken up brutally strikes were broken up brutally and the youth movements that need to hear the most important one april sixth movement was precisely in alliance with that working class movement against social injustice of the lack of a decent minimum wage. the the fact that social services under the neoliberal economy were have been undercut for men. in the last five years so the russian public has a very very good understanding of what's going on here and if i go back to you in paris or where do we move forward because i mentioned something i think is very

very important here because the media is limited resources are limited people are obviously focusing in on libya but all through the region things continue to boil think things continue to change and where do you think it's going i mean because again we like to call people use people are democratic forces and all that and we saw about an in egypt because it was very well televised but i mean i can see it's really right now against oppression what is the next step as they continue. yeah there are two things the first one if i think the argument that we heard from our friend in washington about the fact that you and system is another history is similar to what this particular genes used to say when we're talking about human rights about universal values they would say if you believe in this you are in another track of history i think international law you and. you and resort you shuns are the only legitimate to make an isms that article denies universally

unfortunately however the out against of some super powers and at the same time the refusal of many arab states and third good states and european states and everywhere to accept them and to respect all the time marginalize the u.n. system it is a moment now a crucial moment to bring back the international relations the legitimate and legal dimension that it should have especially in a word where more and more powers are emerging and it needs some new equilibrium to be said as for the region i think i said really the beginning as you recently in libya how do you explain libya being a member of the un human rights how can you tell can you excuse that i mean that that's just me and you will live it definitely this is absolutely there are other states as well like levy are who are a dictatorship here and. because system is for everyone and like just you know yourself you can ask richard question what should you know rich and if i can as they are currently studying and then i had late edition the indian that. there are

also states that violates you and result you shuns through occupation and colonization like israel in the region most arab regimes are also take the ships and they have in the past their seats in the un these are problems that should be now dealt with in this new historical moment where more and more countries are joining democracy and universal values in libya today what should be done and in the arab region in general is in order to allow for a political democratic process to happen. it is to look at it seriously to support all those who are involved in it to give it some time to be tolerant towards it and not to classify it from the beginning whether it will become an islamist or not these are serious challenges of course but we can with lots of opportunities now we can open new doors and allow a new voices to emerge and to play a crucial role and i think if this is not the role of the well just say this the big way i'll give it a big bad united states the big bad united states is still sold the sole supporter

of the military in egypt i believe that's correct to one point three billion u.s. dollars a year it has been forever if we stop that funding what do you think happens in egypt you know we're not asking for some things out of that one because i would because the military council is supporting is supporting the popular movement this is of no speaking from cairo nobody's asking americans stop that funding i think let me strike a minute i know who was there and nearly as your own parents. go ahead of dollars there i don't say that sorry always understood what i said that i had no i'm talking about rich saying nobody about egypt military being the beneficiary of the united states funding and and yet they are and no one would ask them to stop it now because and particularly now because the military is supporting the revolution and is is in line with this democratic revolution but the point i want to make is this i think both in rigging hearing relevant remarks from both parents and washington

in the sense that in a ideal world yes definitely it should be the united nations that should be acting . in this crisis but the fact remains that you have a security council which is the the body that he would have to authorize no flight that's what we're talking about no flight we're not talking about boots on the ground the libyans want a no fly zone because it has a no fly zone they can get food delivered they can get there they can keep a libyan air force from attacking them and you can get medical supplies dropped is they now declare a government which means it will be recognized planes could probably with land they're not asking for boots on the ground in the woods and not asking for american european arab troops on the ground they want to level playing field that they have a living level playing field i think we're going to see a new regime in tripoli getting back to this so on one hand yes would be great if the u.n. would act but we know where you have a security council where there are two countries china and russia hold more or less

indicated they oppose the free flight zone and they have vetoes so it has to be some other international body or an arab like we could be the arab league i wrote an op ed that was published here in cairo just three days ago telling each on the train how viable is that idea because i've heard that too and it would make sense because it's the region looking after itself maybe for the first time the arab league could make sense. yes i agree now what you need is a country to play a leading role in demanding that the arab league acts like that and obviously that country should be egypt by all means egypt has just had a revolution of its own the army is is is he's acting sympathetically towards it it would seem to me that it's egypt that should be demanding now at the arab league the need an arab outlook and of course egypt would be the country that could best facilitate it because egypt has a very good air force that if i grant you perry if i were honest i don't want to

come if i go to paris or what about an idea instead of looking to the great powers to solve the problems of the region because a lot of people say they were the fault of the at the root of some of the problems in supporting you cagers you could you could you have a lot of if you have the region itself start policing itself the. first and i'm not i don't on the blame the others on the problems of the region i've always said and i've always written that most of our problems are also the product of the dysfunctioning of many aspects of our societies which would add to the interventions and the foreign issues about to go back to that the problem is that as in the us said before even in the region there are still many non-democratic governments in the arab region who would not see. a rationale or who would not justify the no fly zone because they consider that it is not that bad it's got nothing can stay for awhile so that this movement would start in the bia

and would not reach countries like syria or other places that see this is very very expensive running out of time gentlemen he international community thanks to my dear city cairo paris and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here arche see you next time and remember across top. stories.

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