let's look. at the. markets why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy cause reports on r.g.p. . is all false now i hear a mosque a this is all it seems there's one story dominates from today japan has been devastated by a mouse an army officer begins to think of the tree wreck will be down the hundred on forty years ago thousands of police on higher ground buildings and ships all washed away and at least ninety five in the reported dead of the number of rising all the time police in japan are a portion of the hundreds of bodies that the found drowned in the city of sendai the capital of the worst hit regions the same area south of a massive explosion at

a petro chemical plant the whole pacific region including russians call reached is on tsunami alert of massive waves threaten to beat other be on the japanese coast. next people about his guests cross swords and out of a changing go away. we'll . bring you the latest in some instances. from the realms. of the future of coverage. can.

follow me and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle the new middle east in the making has the west gotten past its focus on security over democracy in the region and as the west particularly washington learned anything about the process of change in the arab middle east over the past three months. can. you discuss the events in the arab world i'm joined by a delicate slifer in cairo he's a professor emeritus at the american university in cairo in paris we have so i had my job he is a professor of middle east studies at the american university of paris and in washington we cross to rich galen he's a republican strategist and former press secretary could dan quayle and another member of our crosstalk team go on the hunger all right gentlemen this is cross talk to me this means you can jump in anytime you want i'm done i'd like to get you to tell you in our cairo first we just heard that nato is still thinking about

a no fly zone over libya it's going to take a little bit more time to think about it but they are thinking about it so you thought in mind the events that have gone on in the country that you're in right now in egypt tunisia and what's going on in the gulf has american foreign policy adjusted in western foreign policy adjusted enough to the changes that are occurring in the region will have a rhetorical that will they have been just rhetorical the president united states has spoken out growing much about sympathy route the urge for. overthrowing with oratory and regimes having democracy but on the actual field of action. you know doing some relief work for the. libyan help please gyptian explain to workers get out of libya but they have not been certainly not playing a leading role in let's say in standing by this new movement the french are the first to recognize the national council of the libyan insurgents who are fighting

gadhafi not the americans and the french have spoken out very clearly that they favor a no fly zone and the americans have said we'll stay on the table everything's on the table although the secretary of defense was very negative in his remarks about it is if you days ago so i would say rhetorical e they were drafted but in terms of actual. terms of x. action practice no i don't see any alteration right let's go to paris the out if you irregulars ok i'm going to go to paris real quick here then i can ask you a lot of people are looking for conspiracy theories and one of them what's going on in the these movements in the in the greater middle east in the arab world specifically here but one could also say the americans and western capitals really don't really have much of an idea what to do. no i definitely agree with the fact that what's happened in many countries surprised everyone there is an irreversible phenomenon due to urbanization to the fact that there is

a large youth population in the region aspiring for freedoms for democracy for dignity the role of communication and of social virtual connections through twitter facebook you tube and many other facilities and i think there is something in new now and the accumulation of years of this partisan aren't just operating with the. with the wall of fear being destroyed by all these peace people in the public places in the streets in their sense of humor and meaning in their determination to end with the last decades of this partisan and corruption in the arab world and the western capitals are just behaving or are reacting slowly even if hopefully they will continue welcoming these kind of changes and trying to build the new relationships with the arab world but in what concerns libya i think the reactions are slow the brutality of the qaddafi regime is not faced by very firm

positions and the clear messages and i think the knife no fly zone should have been discussed weeks ago as much as other things should have also been discussed and measures should be taken more and more to end with these attacks on his population which we're in washington what do you think about that is washington reacting quickly enough does it understand the processes that are going on here is a valid point i mean just you know this kind everybody flat footed but for a lot of regional specialists they would have said we told you so. well everybody can say that now but i mean you know in a hundred years they put young men that set himself on fire in tunisia may you know go down with with the guy that shot the archduke ferdinand is as this has a spark that nobody thought was going to be a spark but nobody nobody saw this are coming anybody i want to see the writings of people who said this was going to happen six months ago or eight months ago i don't believe it but i am from the u.s.

point of view there's a couple of things and i'm not speaking for all three hundred million americans i'm speaking for one. on the one hand i'm not sure what the national interest is to the u.s. in interfering in in what's going on in libya the much less i mean if need to wants to institute a no fly zone it be interesting to see under what authority the they do that there is we may not like the government but there is a government there on the other hand i think there is not one movement going on if you look at what's going on across in bahrain that is much i think more a sectarian issue between the shias and the sunni's than it is. a rebellion against an autocratic government which is not frankly all that are but i thought it authoritarian although there is a obviously a. an economic difference so so i'm not sure this is all one movement i think they

were are people are taking advantage and i use that in a positive way taking a bit of advantage of the situation as they find it to try to affect change to their benefit but what's going on in libya is certainly not at all the same as what's going on in st paul crane though if i go to you in cairo again i mean we just heard national interest and presumably american nationalist interest but for the last forty years america had a nap the national interest of having dictators in the arab world and now that is coming to an end so i kind of go back to my question there i mean america has never . been really prepared for any democratic arab world because they never thought about it are never really want to destroy it i mean if i don't think that's correct if you go back to the bush doctrine i mean he specifically we've heard a lot about the bush doctrine in the past invasions of countries illegally have a dollar go ahead you know exactly i'm not going for it we can only talk about it and you my money to his are words that he turned over to the know this doctor who was going to retaliate in sick in cairo really i mean i wish dr was specifically

aimed at trying to promote democracies and skilled was drug free even he was very sorry that for silicate of dollars go right ahead iraq going what you're asking for and what do you think a no fly zone is it's using force i think i mean and so no fly zone of dollars please go ahead and look the the the difference that's what's so strange and odd about this is that we went into iraq. number one under. false pretenses right. you can argue well we didn't know that they were false but they were false and we winning despite the hostility of the entire arab world unlike one nine hundred ninety one when we were part of a lot of july ends with syria iraq wrote egypt all contributing troops it was an alliance with the arabs to save kuwait you know to liberate kuwait from saddam hussein from late into iraq from iraq and saddam hussein in one thousand nine

hundred one already and that had a gross error of the least the arab states were backing us now we in it went directly in invading. iraq after nine eleven we had the whole arab population the arab street is you would rather say the arab public opinion was against us and not a single arab state sued along side with us and yet we intervened there now here you have libya on the other hand we are arab sentiment i would say just judging from egypt and the fact that i see libyan flags being sold on the streets now as the i live in flags i mean the old libyan flag which has been resurrected by the insurgents as a symbol against the flag that gadhafi introduced and i see them being sold everywhere now in cairo it's funny because i've saved myself a nice to see it get a libyan flag and i have a feeling that the insurgents have massive support especially among the young people who constitute the majority of the arab world now and and yet i'm the only

one who are they going over to help out here are young egyptians going to get in cars and four and going over to help out where they have been running medical supplies on their visionary how good they are clothes that's the sort of really well that's another different issue. if they are so well where any of this let them let them put themselves in the sand and we have them there against humanity really again we have a cast and then if i go to you one of the reasons what i'm trying to get at this question has to be because. west has a dilemma in dealing with this issue. because i can see the pros and cons of all of this but at the same time there's the wester because you could see other people in the arab world saying see they're determining outcomes again and that's why it's the legacy for that is that it creates a lot of it was rational things. i did not hear everything that was said because they were trying to deny what ok but. i think there are set of clarifications that are needed we cannot put everything together putting behind in

their lead egypt and saying that each is different and just simplifying issues as was done i think in the way in that there are definitely vertical divisions in the society between the shia and the sunni but this is not the under reason for what we are seeing today there is a democracy deficit in bahrain and all serious studies show that in yemen there are also some vertical divisions that are not confessional between sunni and shia that could have some tribal aspects between the north under south but also there is a great democracy deficit the huge one in libya today what is happening is not a civil war or just a movement of rebellion that is using violence against the regime and there is a. very this public and criminal regime in place since nine hundred sixty nine it has been involved in many crimes inside libya and outside libya personally i'm

not asking and i'm not interested in an american clear position or the french because we are talking about the u.n. system about the international community that has the legitimacy and has the obligation to intervene in these kind of situations but it garners of the double standards of the bush administration or of the obama administration or of the first administration of all or most of the other very ministrations who also oh a lot of administrations also have their own double standards i'm saying that in the real politics definitely this exists but the united nations should have based on its bylaws based on the regulations on resolutions on the international humanitarian law and geneva conventions there are set of things that are that have been marginalized for decades i think this is a crucial moment to bring them back and we have to jump in here gentlemen we're going. sorry frank and when we come back we'll go to rich after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the uprisings in the arab world stay with our.

see. the i'm. a. download the official allocation giong phone the i pod touch from the i.q. stamps to. one life on the go. video on demand on cheese minefield comes an r.s.s. feeds are now in the palm of your hands. on the t.v. dot com. if. me leave to.

see. a. problem. welcome back across our computer to remind you we're talking about the changes going on in the arab world. the egypt syria the i. but first let's see how russians view the events in the arab world. the political crisis in the arab world had been shaking the world for almost three months people in the streets of arab capitals protests calling for democratization of their societies still many believe demonstrators mostly express public this

content rather than clear political goals the russian public opinion research center all citizens what drives the rest in the region forty five percent see poverty unemployment and hunger and the root fourteen percent believe people. with long ruling leaders thirteen percent say rigidity are authoritarian regimes inflames the people and eight percent think it is all because of corruption however the political implications of the protests should not be underestimated as it is not clear what role extremist forces played in this terrible intreat you peter. ok richard codey you and we before the break you want to jump in there so you have an opportunity to do it right now going where i want to talk a little bit about my friend in paris is the love for the u.n. if they could i think the qaddafi regime has been so horrible for so long i don't agree it has been horrible for a long time then we're we're have the other arab states been we're of the other

across the ground and through the middle east the african union know everybody wants somebody else to do it there not only that but the u.n. has allowed libya libya to have a seat on the on the u.n. human rights council for lo these many years just the other day they probably got around to suspending them from there but the u.n. is is is it's fine to have it we pay a lot you pay a lot everybody pays a lot to keep it there i think it's fine to have it but anybody who thinks that the u.n. can somehow solve these kinds of fast these kinds of brushfires let's bring up around the world that have any kind of impact is reading a different history than i've read here bill if i go to you in cairo maybe reacted . rich just said there well where was the consensus against the side to regimes where most of the regimes were paid off by washington so i guess that's why there wasn't much of a consensus there maybe now we have an opportunity for a new government a new peoples to be able to speak the will of their own people on the ground and

things might be a bit different i think we all hope they will be go ahead well i think what you can say is that we. did not. protest against that is out outrageous prior to this or regimes that she had something in common with them and i don't think it's us funding because some of those regimes didn't have us when they were needed i mean it's egypt that was the one that's been drawing tremendous money from the united states but certainly not other countries like nigeria you know but they all shared together was authoritarian systems and a demographic problem with young people for whom there is no work because this is not been the great concern and you know all those issues that the russian public mentioned are interesting because they are all true and they all intersect there's a connection between corruption and the fact that you don't have a viable economy is growing and the lack of north oratory and system which makes the corruption that much easier and sold

a all of the reasons we mentioned including the first reason which is power we forget that that this all started as a a protest of a combination of poverty and police brutality poverty that crosses university graduate a high school graduate over in tunis. and then his in his stressed ration with the police not letting him make a simple living selling lettuce and tomatoes in the street hours and the same here what preceded qatar here qatar years square and we've lost sight of this because so much attention has been focused on the political but what preceded the square revolutions you want to call it was the fact that there's been tremendous unrest in the industrial cities of egypt outside of cairo which had been broken out brutally strikes were broken up brutally and the youth movements that may touch here the most important one and it will six will be was precisely in alliance with that working class movement against social injustice of the lack of

a decent minimum wage. the fact that social services under the new liberal economy will have been undercut ferment. slee in the last five years so the russian public has a very very good understanding of what's going on here that if i go back to you and paris here where do we move forward because i mentioned something i think is very very important here because the media is limited resources are limited people are obviously focusing in on libya but all through the region things continue to boil think things continue to change and where do you think it's going i mean because again we like to call people these people are democratic forces and all that and we saw that and in egypt because it was very well televised but i mean they can say it's really right now against oppression what is the next step as they continue. yeah two things first one if i think the argument that we heard from our friend in washington about the fact that you and system is another history similar to what our despotic regimes used to say when we're talking about human rights about

universal values they would say if you believe in this you are in another track of history i think international law you and. your under what you shuns are the only legitimate to make on isms that article denies universally unfortunately however the other guns of some super powers and at the same time the refusal of many arab states and third world states and european states and everywhere to accept them and put a speck down all the time and marginalize the u.n. system it is a moment now a crucial moment to bring back to international relations the legitimate and legal mention that it should have especially in a world where more and more powers are emerging and it needs some new equilibrium to be set as for the region i think i said i don't think any recently in libya how do you explain libya being a member of the un human rights how can you see how can you excuse that i mean that that's just beyond you a living definitely this is absolutely there are other states as well like levy are

who are a dictatorship here and how does that play here because you our system is for everyone and like just me and i also started thinking ask richard question one should you know rich if i can absolutely study and then or as i explained finnish in the region that the violence. there are also states that violates your end result you shuns through occupation and colonization like israel in the region most arab regimes are also dictatorships and they have in the past their seats in the un these are problems that should be now then within this new historical moment where more and more countries are joining democracy and universal values and libya today what should be done and in the arab region in general is in order to allow for a political democratic process to happen. it is to look at it see this need to support all those who are involved in it to give it some time to be tolerant towards it and not to classify it from the beginning whether it would become an islamist or not these are serious challenges of course but we can with lots of

torch unities now we can open new doors and allow a new voices to emerge and to play a crucial role and i think if this is not the will of the legislators and big i wonder where they give you the really bad united states the big bad united states is still sold the sole supporter of the military in egypt i believe that's correct to one point three billion u.s. dollars a year it has been forever if we stop that funding what do you think happens in egypt you know we're not asking for some things out of the hundreds out because little as muscles are pouring is supporting the popular movement this is a double speaking from cairo nobody's asking americans stop that funding i think let me strike a no no no here was and nearly as you're an heiress. go ahead of their i didn't say that sorry i misunderstood what i said adela had no i'm talking about rick saying nobody about egypt's military being the beneficiary of united states funding and

and yet they are no one would ask them to stop it now because and particularly now because the military is supporting the revolution and is is in line with this democratic revolution for the point i want to make is this i think both in the region hearing relevant remarks from both paris and washington in the sense that in a ideal world yes definitely it should be the united nations that should be acting . in this crisis but the fact remains that you have a security council which is the the body that it would have to authorize no flight and that's what we're talking about no flight we're not talking about boots on the ground the libyans want a new light zone because it was a no fly zone they can get food delivered they can get they they can keep a libyan air force from attacking them and you can get medical supplies dropped is they now declared a government which means it will be recognized planes could probably would land they're not asking for boots on the ground in the words they're not asking for

american european arab troops on the ground they want to level playing field that they have a living level playing field i think we're going to see a new regime in tripoli but getting back to this so on one hand yes would be great if the u.n. would act but we know where you have a security council where there are two countries china and russia whole world has indicated they oppose the free flight zone and they have vetoes so it has to be some other international body or an arab like it could be the arab league i wrote an op ed that was published here in cairo just three days ago telling an interim the train how viable is that idea because i've heard that too and it would make sense because it's the region looking after itself maybe for the first time the arab league could make sense. yes i agree that now what you need is a country to play a leading role in demanding that the arab league acts like that and obviously that country should be egypt by all means egypt has just had a revolution of its own the army is is is he's acting sympathetically towards it it

would seem to me that it's egypt that should be demanding now at the arab league the need an arab outlook and of course egypt would be the country that could best facilitate it because egypt has a very good air force there to find really imperative i know we're almost i don't know if i go to paris or what about that idea instead of looking to the great powers to solve the problems of the region because a lot of people say they were the fall to the root of some of the problems in supporting you taters you could you could you have a lot of if you have the region itself start policing itself yeah. first and i'm not i don't only blame the others on the problems of the region i've always said and i've always returned to north of our problems are also a product of the dysfunctioning of many aspects of our societies to which would add to the interventions and the foreign issues about to go back to that the problem is that as in the. before even in the region there are still many non-democratic

governments in the arab region who would not see. a rationale or who would not justify the no fly zone because they consider that it is not that bad if gaddafi can stay for awhile so that this movement would stop in the and would not reach countries like syria or like other places that see this is very very explicit images are running out of time gentlemen here international community thanks to my guests a day in cairo terrace and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember across a couple. of. stories.

can. you're the.