he's for instance on t.v. dot com. if. hello thanks for joining us she watching our to you from moscow one story dominates the news japan has been devastated by a massive tsunami after the biggest earthquake in the country since records began one hundred forty years ago at least three hundred eighty five people are reported dead but that number looks set to still buildings ships even passenger train were washed away some remain unaccounted for a new quake measuring six point six percent in the last few hours causing tokyo

skyscrapers the shake again there's major concern tonight over damage caused to the fish nuclear plant the pressure inside the reactor has been building it's raised fears of a radiation leak pan's nuclear safety agency says to reduce the pressure of radioactive vapor may be released but this poses no danger to the public right now. but of course keep you up to date with what's happening in japan but next it's people of cross talk and today peyton is guest debate what's a stake in the ongoing crisis in the arab world is coming up after this quick break . cooling you the latest in science and technology from the realms. we've gone to the future of coverage. keep.

chloe and welcome to cross dot com peter lavelle the new middle east in the making has the west gotten past its focus on security over democracy in the region and has the west particularly washington learned anything about the process of change in the arab middle east over the past three months. can. you discuss the events in the arab world i'm joined by belak slifer in cairo he's a professor emeritus at the american university in cairo in paris we have so i had my job he is a professor of middle east studies at the american university of paris and in washington we cross to rich galen he's a republican strategist and former press secretary to dan quayle and another member

of our crosstalk team on the hunt all right gentlemen this is prostate i mean this means you can jump in anytime you want how dull i pity you to keep you in our cairo first we just heard that nato is still thinking about a no fly zone over libya it's going to take a little bit more time to think about it but they are thinking about it so that in mind the events that have gone on in the country that you're in right now in egypt tunisia and what's going on in the gulf has american foreign policy adjusted in western foreign policy adjusted enough to the changes that are occurring in the region well the rhetorical level they have a just we're tour the present united states has spoken out very much about sympathy with the urge for. overthrowing with oratory and regimes having to caucus and pull on the actual field of action. you know that doing some relief work for the. libyan help please gyptian expatriate workers get out of libya but they have not been certainly are not playing

a leading role in the say in standing by this new movement the french are the first to have recognized the national council of the libyan insurgents who are fighting gadhafi not the americans and the french have spoken out very clearly that they favor a no fly zone and the americans have said we'll stay on the table everything's on the table although the secretary of defense was very negative in his remarks about it just a few days ago so i would say rhetorical e a productive but in terms of actual in terms of x. action. practice no i don't see any alteration all right let's go to paris and if you regulars ok i'm going to paris real quick here then i'm going to ask you a lot of people are looking for conspiracy theories in one night and what's going on in the these movements in the in the greater middle east in the arab world specifically here but one could also say the americans and western capitals really don't really have much of an idea what to do and i definitely agree with the fact

that what's happened in many arab countries surprised everyone there is a reversible phenomenon due to urban ization to the fact that there is a large youth population in the region aspiring for freedoms for democracy for dignity their own of communication and of social virtual connections through twitter facebook and many other facilities and i think there is something new now and i can relation our fears of the supporters and aren't just operating with the. with the wall of fear being destroyed by all these people in the public places in the streets in their sense of humor and mainly in their determination to and with the last decades of their supporters and corruption in the arab world the western capitals are just behaving or are reacting slowly even if

hopefully they will continue welcoming this kind of changes and trying to build a new relationships with the arab world but in what concerns libya i think the reactions are slow the growth of the qaddafi regime is not faced by a very firm positions and clear messages and i think the knife no fly zone should have been discussed weeks ago as much as other things should have also been discussed and measures should be taken more and more to and with his attacks on his population which were in washington what do you think about that is washington reacting quickly enough is it understand the processes that are going on here is a valid point i mean is there you know this kind everybody flat footed but for a lot of great regional specialists they would have said we told you so. well everybody can say that now but i mean you know in a hundred years they that young man that said in a soft on fire in tunisia may you know go down with with the guy that shot the archduke ferdinand is as this is a spark that nobody thought was going to be

a spark but nobody nobody saw this are coming anybody i want to see the writings of people who said this was going to happen six months ago or eight months ago i don't believe it but from the u.s. point of view there's a couple of things and i'm not speaking for all three hundred million americans i'm speaking for one. on the one hand i'm not sure what the national interest is to the u.s. in interfering in in what's going on in libya. the much less i mean if need a wants to institute a no fly zone it be interesting to see under what authority the they do that there is we may not like the government but there is a government there on the other hand i think there is not one movement going on if you look at what's going on across in bahrain that is much i think more a sectarian issue between the shias and the sunni's than it is.

a rebellion against an autocratic government which is not frankly all that odd but i thought it authoritarian although there is a obviously a an economic difference so so i'm not sure this is all one movement i think there are people are taking advantage and i use that in a positive way taking advantage vantage of the situation as they find it to try to effect change it to their benefit but what's going on in libya is certainly not at all the same as what's going on in state a crane i don't find out to you in cairo again i mean we just heard national interest and presumably american nationalist interest but for the last forty years america had a nap the national interest of having dictators in the arab world and now that is coming to an end so i kind of go back to my question though i mean america's never . really prepared for any democratic arab world because they never thought about it are never really want to destroy it i mean if you i don't think that's correct if you go back to the bush doctrine i mean he specifically we've heard a lot about push talk in the past invasions of countries illegally on

a dollar go ahead you know exactly i mean all different we can only talk about any money money variance or words it's the start of the dollar go ahead auction we're going to tell in the audience are you leaving i just actually was specifically aimed at trying to promote democracy is still the push drugs even the military side is more so ok the dollars go right ahead well iraq going what you're asking for added what do you think a no fly zone is this using force i think i mean the answer no fly zone of dollars please go ahead. but look the the difference that's what's so strange and odd about this is that we went into iraq. number one under. false pretenses right. you can argue we didn't know that they were false but they were false and we will mean despite the hostility of the entire arab world unlike ninety ninety one when we were part of a larger lions with syria morocco egypt all contributing troops it was

a reliance with the arabs to save kuwait you know to liberate kuwait from saddam hussein from militant iraq from iraq and saddam hussein in one thousand nine hundred one or later and that had a broad arab police the arab states were backing us now when we went directly invading iraq after nine eleven we had the whole arab population the arab street as you would want to say the arab public opinion was against us and not a single arab state sit alongside with us and yet we intervene there now here you have libya on the other hand we are arab sentiment i would say just judging from egypt and the fact that i see libyan flags being sold on the streets now as well good by living in flags i mean the old libyan flag which has been resurrected by the insurgents as a symbol against the flag that khadafi introduced and i see them being sold everywhere now in cairo it's funny because i've saved myself a nice to see it get

a libyan flag and i have a feeling that the insurgents have massive support especially among the young people who constitute the majority of the arab world now and and yet i'm not going to be are they going over to help out or if you are young egyptians going to get in cars and flame going over to help out while they have been running the local supplies one per visit three hundred years really really outside of that sort of good well that's a very different issue. if they are so aware any of this let them with weapons put themselves in the sand we have their gas to do it again we have a guest in paris then if i go to you one of the reasons what i'm trying to get at this question is that because. west has a dilemma in dealing with this issue because because i can see the pros and cons of all of this but at the same time there's the west here because you could see other people in the arab world saying see they're determining outcomes again and that's why it's the legacy for that is that it creates a lot of it in my decision. i did not hear everything that was said because they

were trying to deny her. ok but. i think there are set of clarifications that are needed we cannot put everything together putting behavior in their lead egypt and saying that each is different and just simplifying issues as was done i think in that there are definitely vertical divisions in the society between the shia and the sunni but this is not the only reason for what we are seeing today and there is a democracy deficit and all serious studies show that in yemen there are also some vertical divisions that are not confessional between sunni and shia that could have some tribal aspects between the north under south but also there is a great democracy deficit the huge one in libya today what is happening is not a civil war or just a movement of rebellion that is using violence against the regime there is

a. very this project and criminal regime in place since one thousand nine hundred sixty nine and that has been involved in many crimes inside libya and outside libya personally i'm not asking and i'm not interested in an american clear position or the french because we are talking about the u.n. system about the international community that has the legitimacy and has the obligation to intervene in these kind of situations and the governance of the double standards of the bush administration or of the obama administration or of the french administration of all of most of the other very ministrations who also know a lot of administrations also have their own double standards i'm saying that in the real politics definitely this exists but the united nations should have based on its bylaws based on the regulations on resolutions on the international humanitarian law underneath the conventions and there are set of things that are that have been marginalized for decades i think this is a crucial moment to bring them back and we have to jump in here gentlemen we're

going. sharp break and when we come back we'll go to rich after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the uprisings in the arab world stay with r.t. . the slate to keep the story . and. the. fixed so fast for. the first few. wealthy british scientists holds. on to the title of. markets why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy in the cause

a report on our. play the campaign against sterling. and the future. welcome back to crossfire computable true mind you were talking about the changes going on in the arab world. the i can see the same. but first let's see how russians view the events in the arab world. so the political crisis in the arab world have been shaking the world for almost three months people in the streets of arab capitals protest calling for democracy is ation of their societies so many believe demonstrators not sleek suppressed part of this continent rather than clear political goals the russian public opinion research center all citizens what drives the rest in the region forty five percent

see poverty unemployment and hunger and the root fourteen percent believe people are dissatisfied with long ruling leaders thirteen percent say rigidity after a terry and rejean inflames the people and eight percent think it is all because of corruption however the political implications of the protests should not be underestimated as it is not clear what raul extremist forces play in this terrible entry peter. ok richard to go to you and we before the break you want to jump in there so you have an opportunity to do it right now go ahead where i want to talk a little bit about that about my friend in paris is the love for the u.n. if they could die for the khadafi regime has been so horrible for so long and i agree it has been horrible for a long time then we're we're have the other arab states been we're of the other across the magreb and through the middle east the african union know everybody wants somebody else to do it and not only that but the u.n.

is allowed libya libya to have a seat on the on the un human rights council for lo these many years just the other day they finally got around to suspending them from that but the u.n. is is is it's fine to have it we pay a lot you pay a lot everybody pays a lot to keep it there i think it's fine to have it but anybody who thinks that the u.n. can somehow solve these kinds of fast these kinds of brush fires that spring up around the world that have any kind of impact is reading a different history than i've read here vilifying to you in cairo maybe we have to . riches there well where was the consensus against he's tied to regimes where most of the regimes were paid off by washington so i guess that's why there wasn't much of a consensus there maybe now we have an opportunity for a new government a new peoples to be able to speak the will of their own people on the ground and things might be a bit different i think we all hope they will go ahead well i think we can say is that we. would not. protest against kidnap is our

outrages prior to this or regimes that she had something in common with them and i don't think it's us funding because some of those regimes didn't have us funding or need you i mean it's egypt that was the one that's been drawing tremendous money from the united states but certainly not other countries like algeria no but they all shared together was authoritarian systems and a demographic problem of gun people for whom is no work because this is not been the great concern and you know all those issues that the russian public mentioned are interesting because they're all true and they all intersect there's a connection between corruption and the fact that you don't have a viable economies going and the lack of north oratory and system which makes the corruption that much easier and sold they all of the reasons they mention including the first reason which is power we forget that that this all started as a protest of the combination of poverty and police brutality the poverty that

forces university graduate high school graduate over in tunis. and then his in his frustration with the police not letting him make a simple living selling lettuce and tomatoes in the street hours and the same here what preceded the tar here qatar years square and we've lost sight of this because so much attention has been focused on the political but what preceded the year square revolutions if you want to call it was the fact that there's been tremendous unrest in the industrial cities of egypt outside of cairo which have been broken out brutally stripes were broken up brutally and the youth movements that made here the most important one april sixth movement was precisely in alliance with that working class movement against social injustice of the lack of a decent minimum wage. the the fact that social services under the neoliberal economy were have been undercut ferment. sleep in the last five years so the

russian public has a very very good understanding of what's going on here and if i go back to you and paris here where do we move forward because i mentioned something i think is very very important here because the media is limited resources are limited people are all obviously focusing in on libya but all through the region things continue to boil think things continue to change and where do you think it's going i mean because again we like to call people these people are democratic forces and all that and we saw that in in egypt because it was very well televised but i mean against its really right now against oppression what is the next step as they continue. yeah there are two things the first one if i think the argument that we heard from our friend in washington about the fact that you and system is another history is similar to what out of this particular genes used to say when we're talking about human rights about universal values they would say if you believe in this you are in another track of history i think international law

you and. you underscore you shuns are the only legitimate to make an isms that article denies universally unfortunately however the other guns of some super powers and at the same time the refusal of many arab states and third world states and european states and everywhere to accept them and to respect them all the time much like the un system it is a moment now a crucial moment to bring back to international relations the legitimate and legal mention that it should have especially in a world where more and more powers are emerging and it needs some new equilibrium to be said as for the region i think it's a really beginning as you recently in libya how do you explain libya being a member of the un human rights how can you say how can you excuse that and we know that that's just beyond you live definitely this is absolutely there are other states as well like levy are who are a dictatorship the. system is for everyone and i like.

can ask richard question in washington you know rich if i can as quickly study under article i it's late edition. there are also states that violates you and result you shun through occupation and colonization like israel in the region most arab regimes are also shapes and have in the past their seats in the un these are problems that should be now then within this new historical moment where more and more countries are joining democracy and universal values and leave out today what should be done and in the arab region in general is in order to allow for a political democratic process to happen. is to look at that serious need to support all those who are involved and that's to give it some time to be tolerant towards it and not to classify it from the beginning whether it will become an islamist or not these are serious challenges of course but we can with lots of torch unities now we can open new doors and allow the new voices to emerge and to

play a crucial role and i think if this is not the will of the twenty three this is a big i wonder where they do that all the bad united states the big bad united states is still sold the sole supporter of the military in egypt i believe that's correct a one point three billion us dollars a year it has been forever if we stop that funding what do you think happens in egypt you know we're not asking for something about one thing because the military council is supporting is supporting the popular movement this isabella speaking from cairo nobody's asking americans stop that funding i think let me strike a printer and i who was there are nearly as if you're in paris. go ahead of where i didn't say that so you know misunderstood what i said it's a valid i had no i'm talking about rick saying nobody about the egypt military being the beneficiary denies states funding and and yet they are no one would ask them to stop it now because and particularly now because the military is supporting the revolution and as ins is in line with this democratic revolution but the point

i want to make is this i think both the rigging hearing relevant remarks from both paris and washington in the sense that in a ideal world yes definitely it should be the united nations that should be acting . in this crisis but the fact remains that you have a security council which is the the body that it would have to authorize no flight and that's what we're talking about no flight we're not talking about boots on the ground the libyans want a no white zone because it was a no fly zone they can get food delivered they can get they they can keep a libyan air force from attacking them and you can get medical supplies dropped is they now declare a government which means it will be recognized planes can probably even land they're not asking for boots on the ground in the woods and not asking for american european arab troops on the ground they want to level playing field that they have a living level playing field i think we're going to see a new regime in tripoli but getting back to this so on one hand yes would be great

if the u.n. would act but we know where you have a security council where there are two countries china and russia who world has indicated they oppose the free flight zone and they have vetoes so it has to be some other international body or an arab like it could be the arab league i wrote an op ed that was published here in cairo just three days ago telling each other naturally and how viable is that idea because i've heard actually when it would make sense because it's the region looking after itself maybe for the first time the arab league could make sense. yes i agree now what you need is a country to play a leading role in demanding that the arab league acts like that and obviously that country should be egypt by all means egypt has just had a revolution of its own the army is is he's acting sympathetically towards it it would seem to me that it's egypt should be demanding now. the arab league the needy

and arab outlook and of course egypt would be the country that could best facilitate it because egypt has a very good our force that if i'm going to impair him i know we're almost out of a time if i go to paris or what about that idea instead of looking to the great powers to solve the problems of the region because a lot of people say they were the the at fault the at the root of some of the problems in supporting you cater you could you could you have a lot of if you have the region itself start policing itself yeah. first i know i'm not i don't blame the others on the problems of the region i've always said and i've always written that most of our problems are also a product of the dysfunctioning of many aspects of our societies which would add to the interventions and the thought and it was about to go back to that the problem is that as in the. before even in the region there are many none democratic governments in the arab region who would not see. a rationale or who would not justify the no fly zone because they consider that it is not that bad if the buffet

can stay for a while so that this movement would start in the yard would not reach countries like syria like other places that still exist very expensive machines are running out of time gentlemen here in international community thanks to my guest today in cairo paris and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember across country. if you. still. want to.

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