three strategies those that the wrote about but i still will implode like a baby right michelle's off the gossipy director of the center for research on globalization and that's going to do it for now i want to thank you so much for watching and christine for as i will be back in ninety minutes. issues that so much there's a huge decision. in the markets in the middle east in the making as the west on the past the focus on security over democracy in the region and here's. the thing. the thing that the things the same.

reason you believe just in something instance acknowledged some of. the future coverage. can't. stand. alone and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle the new middle east in the making has the west gotten past its focus on security over democracy in the region and as the west particularly washington learned anything about the process of change in the arab middle east over the past three months. can.

you discuss the events in the arab world i'm joined by a bellicose lifer in cairo he's a professor emeritus at the american university in cairo in paris we have so i had my job he is a professor of middle east studies at the american university of paris and in washington we cross to rich galen he's a republican strategist and former press secretary to dan quayle and another member of our crosstalk team on the hunt all right gentlemen this is cross talk to me this means you can jump in anytime you want i've done i'd like to get you to tell you in our cairo first we just heard that nato is still thinking about a no fly zone over libya it's going to take a little bit more time to think about it but they are thinking about it so if that in mind the events that have gone on in the country that you're in right now in egypt tunisia and what's going on in the gulf has american foreign policy adjusted in western foreign policy adjusted enough to the changes that are occurring in the region well in

a rhetorical level they haven't just rhetorical the president united states has spoken out very much about sympathy with the urge for. overthrowing with oratory and regimes having to baucus and put on the actual field of action. and you know doing some relief work for the. libyan help please gyptian expatriate workers get out of libya but they have not been certainly are not playing a leading role in the thing in standing by this new movement the french are the first who have recognized the national council of the libyan insurgents who are fighting gadhafi not the americans and the french have spoken out very clearly that they favor a no fly zone and the americans have said will stay on the table everything's on the table although the secretary of defense was very negative in his remarks about it just a few days ago so i would say rhetorical e

a productive but in terms of actual. terms of x. action. practice no i don't see any alteration carla's going to paris and if you're a raiders ok i say go to paris real quick here the enemy can ask you a lot of people are looking for conspiracy theories in one night and what's going on in the these movements in the in the greater middle east in the arab world specifically here but one could also say the americans and western capitals really don't really have much of an idea what to do but i definitely agree with the fact that what's happened in many arab countries surprised everyone there is a reversible phenomenon now due to urbanization to the fact that there is a large youth population in the region aspiring for freedoms for democracy for dignity the role of communication and of social virtual connections through a twitter facebook you tube and many other facilities and i think there is something new now and the accumulation of years of this quarter's. operating with the.

with the wall of fear being destroyed by all these these people in the public places in the streets in their sense of humor and mainly in their determination to and with the last decades of this partisan and corruption in the arab world the western capitals are just behaving or are reacting slowly even if hopefully they will continue welcoming these kind of changes and trying to build the new relationships with the arab world but in what concerns the b.r. i think the reactions are slow the good quality of the qaddafi regime is not faced by very firm positions and clear messages and i think the knife no fly zone should have been discussed weeks ago as much as other things are also being discussed and measures should be taken more and more to and with these attacks on his population

which were in washington what do you think about that is washington reacting quickly enough is it understand the processes that are going on here is a valid point how is this did you know this can everybody flat footed but for a lot of regional specialists they would have said we told you so. well everybody can say that now but i mean you know in a hundred years they that young man has set himself on fire in tunisia may you know go down with with the guy that shot the archduke ferdinand is as this is a spark that nobody thought was going to be a spark but nobody nobody saw this all coming anybody i want to see the writings of people who said this was going to happen six months ago or eight months ago i don't believe it but from the u.s. point of view there's a couple of things and i'm not speaking for all three hundred million americans i'm speaking for one. on the one hand i'm not sure what the national interest is to the u.s. in interfering in in what's going on in libya the much less i mean if need to wants to institute

a no fly zone it be interesting to see under what authority the they do that there is we may not like the government but there is a government there on the other hand i think there is not one movement going on if you look at what's going on across in bahrain that is much i think more a sectarian issue between the shias and the sunni's than it is. a rebellion against an autocratic government which is not frankly that all that on about it authoritarian although there is a obviously a an economic difference so so i'm not sure this is all one movement i think they were are people are taking advantage and i use that in a positive way taking advantage vantage of the situation as they find it to try to effect change it to their benefit but what's going on in libya is certainly not at all the same as what's going on in stable crain i don't find how do you encounter again i mean we just heard national interest and presumably american national

interest but for the last forty years america had a nap the national interest of having dictators in the arab world and now that is coming to an end so i kind of go back to my question there i mean america's never. been really prepared for any democratic arab world because they never thought about it are never really want to destroy it i mean if you don't think that's correct if you go back to the bush doctrine i mean he specifically we've heard a lot about the bush doctrine in the past invasions of countries illegally on a dollar go ahead you know exactly i mean all different we can only talk about any money money variance or whether it's or not doesn't go ahead auction we're going to tell anybody in second cairo doctrine was specifically aimed at trying to promote democracy is still that was derogatory even he signed it or so ok the dollars go right ahead well i wrote what you're asking for added what do you think a no fly zone is this using force i think i made against a no fly zone of dollars please go ahead. look at the the difference let's see

what's so strange and odd about this is that we went into iraq. number one under. false pretenses right. you can argue well we didn't know that they were false but they were false and we will mean despite the hostility of the entire arab world unlike nine hundred ninety one when we were part of a larger violence with syria morocco egypt all contributing troops it was a reliance with arabs to save kuwait you know to liberate kuwait from saddam hussein from the into iraq from iraq from saddam hussein in one thousand nine hundred one all right and that had a broad arab police the arab states were backing us now we in it went directly in invading. iraq after nine eleven we had the whole arab population the arab street as you would want to say the arab public opinion was

against us and not a single arab state sit alongside with us and yet we intervene there now here you have libya on the other hand we are arab sentiment i would say just judging from egypt in the fact that i see libyan flags being sold on the streets now as with the by living in flags i mean the old libyan flag which has been resurrected by the insurgents as a symbol against the flag that gadhafi introduced and i see them being sold everywhere now in cairo it's funny because i was saying yourself it's nice to see you get a libyan flag and i have a feeling that the insurgents have massive support especially among the young people who cause the think the majority of the arab world now and and the other i'm not going to be are they going over to help out are it your are young egyptians going to get in cars and four and going over to help out where they have been running medical supplies on this very have already been playing outside of their own well that's a very different issue but what if they are so weary of this let them let them put themselves in the sand and we have another guest to it again we have

a guest and then if i go to you one of the reasons what i'm trying to get at this question is because. the west has a dilemma in dealing with this issue because b.b. because i can see the pros and cons of all of this but at the same time there's the west because you could see other people in the arab world saying see they're determining outcomes again and that's why it's the legacy for that is that it creates a lot of inspiration hearings. i did not hear everything that was said because they were called by the. ok but. i think there are set of clear clarifications that are needed we cannot put everything together putting behave in egypt and saying that each is different and just simplifying issues as was done i think in the when there are definitely vertical divisions in the society between the shia and the sunni but this is not the under reason for what we are seeing

today there is a democracy deficit in bahrain and all serious studies show that in yemen there are also some vertical divisions that are not confessional between sunni and shia that could have some tribal aspects between the north under south but also there is a great democracy deficit the huge one in libya today what is happening is not a civil war or just a movement of rebellion that is using violence against the regime there is a very this particular and criminal regime in place since one thousand nine hundred sixty nine and that has been involved in many crimes inside libya and outside libya personally i'm not asking and i'm not interested in an american clear position or the french because we are talking about the u.n. system about the international community that has the legitimacy and has the obligation to intervene in these kind of situations and the governance of the double standards of the bush administration or of the obama administration or of

the french administration of all of most of the other broad installations who also or all out of administrations also have their own double standards i'm saying that in the real politics definitely this exists but the united nations should have based on its bylaws based on the regulations on resolutions on the international humanitarian law and geneva conventions and there are set of things that are that have been marginalized for decades i think this is a crucial moment to bring them back and we have to jump in here gentlemen we're going. sorry and when we come back we'll go to rich after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the uprisings in the arab world stay with r.c. . keep the story .

from our hero. we hear it because our country outs that. god promised them the smilin belongs to. will if they are still going to be thinking. gone chosen people will not believe that god is real stake as you say look at this that is this for you guys and this guy this is for you. to go on are this is our. research my them. up and look. around them up at. the top. they tell me i've been here broadcasting live from washington d.c.

coming up today on the big picture. the i'm. a. lead. the a. welcome back to crossfire i'm going to mind you we're talking about the changes going on in the air a. little. the a. but first let's see how the russians view of events in the arab world. the political crisis in the arab world have been shaking the world for almost three

months people in the streets of arab capitals protest calling for democratization of their societies still many believe demonstrators knots leeks press public this content rather than clear political goals the russian public opinion research center our citizens what drives the rest in the region forty five percent see poverty unemployment and hunger and the report fourteen percent believe people are dissatisfied with long ruling wieters thirteen percent say rigidity authoritarian regimes in flames the people and eight percent think it is all because of corruption however the political implications of the protests should not be underestimated as it is not clear what role extremist forces play in this turbulent region peter. ok richard to go to you and me before the break you want to jump in there so you have an opportunity to do it right now go ahead where i want to talk

a little bit about that my friend in paris is the love for the u.n. if they could i think the khadafi regime has been so horrible for so long and i agree it has been horrible for a long time then we're we're have the other arab states been we're of the other the across the magreb and through the middle east the african union know everybody wants somebody else to do it and not only that but the u.n. is allowed libya libya to have a seat on the on the un human rights council for lo these many years just the other day they finally got around to suspending them from it but the u.n. is is is it's fine to have it we play alive you pay a lot everybody pays a lot to keep it there i think it's fine to have it but anybody who thinks that the u.n. can somehow solve these kinds of fast these kinds of brushfires that spring up around the world that have any kind of impact is reading a different history than i've read here though if i go to you maybe we have to. rich just said there well where was the consensus against these type of regimes

where most of the regimes were paid off by washington so i guess that's why there wasn't much of a consensus there maybe now we have an opportunity for a new government's new peoples to be able to speak the will of their own people on the ground and things might be a bit different i think we all hope they will be go ahead well i think what you can say is that. that would not. protest against could that is our outrage it's prior to this regimes that shared something in common with them and i don't think it's us funding because some of those regimes didn't have us funding we need you i mean it's egypt that was is the one that's been drawing tremendous money from the united states but certainly not of the countries like algeria you know but they all shared together was authoritarian systems and a demographic problem of young people for whom there's no work because this is not been the great concern and you know all those issues that the russian public mentioned are interesting because they're all true and they all intersect there's

a connection between corruption and the fact that you don't have a viable economies going and the lack of north korean system which makes the corruption that much easier and then sold me all of the reasons they mention including the first reason which is can we forget that that this all started as a a protest of a combination of poverty and police brutality the poverty that was this university graduate high school graduate over in tunis. and then his his frustration with the police not letting him make a simple living selling lettuce and tomatoes in the street hours and the same here what preceded the tar here tucker your screen there and we've lost sight of this because so much attention has been focused on the political but what preceded tucker your square revolutions you want to call it was the fact that there's been tremendous unrest in the industrial cities of egypt outside of cairo which have

been growing up brutally strikes were broken up brutally and the youth movements that made here the most important one april sixth movement was precisely in alliance with that working class movement against social injustice of the lack of a decent minimum wage. the fact that social services under the neoliberal economy were have been undercut for men. in the last five minutes so the russian public has a very very good understanding of what's going on here and if i go back to you in paris here where do we move forward because i mentioned something i think is very very important here because the media is limited resources are limited people are obviously focusing in on libya but all through the region things continue to boil paint things continue to change and where do you think it's going i mean because again we like to call people use people democratic forces and all that and we saw that and in egypt because it was very well televised but i mean i can see it's really right now against oppression what is the next step as they continue. yeah

two things first one if i think the argument that we heard from our friend in washington about the fact that q. and system is another history similar to what this particular seems used to say when we're talking about human rights about universal values they would say if you believe in this you are in another track of history and i think law international law you and sister you understand you shuns are the only legitimate to make an isms that article denies universally unfortunately however the other guns of some super powers and at the same time the refusal of many arab states and third world states and european states and everywhere to accept them and to respect them all the time and much unlike the u.n. system it is a moment now a crucial moment to bring back to international relations the legitimate and legal mention that it should have especially in a world where more and more powers are emerging and it needs some new equilibrium to be said as for the region i think i said really beginning to tell you exactly in

libya how do you explain libya being a member of the un human rights how can you tell can you excuse that and we know that's just beyond you will live because definitely this is absolutely there are other states as well like levy are who are a dictatorship here and that. system is for everyone and i'd like to just i mean i . can ask richard question if i should be rich and if i can as they are clearly saudi and then all right i actually think that the violence. there are also states that violates you and result you should. through occupation and colonization like israel in the region and most arab regimes are also paper ships and they have in the past their seats in the u.n. these are problems that should be now dealt with in this new historical moment where more and more countries are joining democracy and universal values and leader today what should be done and in the region in general is in order to allow for a political democratic process to happen. it is to look at it seriously to support

all those who are involved and that's to give it some time to be tolerant towards it and not to classify it from the beginning whether it will become an islamist or not these are serious challenges of course but we can with lots of opportunities now we can open new doors and allow a new voices to emerge and to play a crucial role and i think if this is not the role of the legacy this the big way i'll give it a big bag united states the big bad united states is still sold the sole supporter of the military in egypt i believe that's correct to one point three billion u.s. dollars a year it has been forever if we stop that funding what do you think happens in egypt you know we're not asking for some things out of that one thing because the military council supporting is supporting the popular movement this isabella speaking from cairo nobody's asking americans stop that funding i think let me strike a printer i know who was there and nearly as your own parents. go ahead of where i

didn't say that sorry i misunderstood what i said valid i had no i'm talking about rick saying nobody about the egypt military being the beneficiary united states funding and yet they are no one would ask them to stop it now because and particularly now because the military is supporting the revolution and is in line with this democratic revolution but the point i want to make is this i think both the hearing relevant remarks from both paris and washington in the sense that in a ideal world yes definitely it should be the united nations that should be acting in this crisis but the fact remains that you have a security council which is the the body that it would have to authorize no flight and that's what we're talking about no flight we're not talking about boots on the ground the libyans want a new light zone because it was a no fly zone they can get food delivered they can get there they can keep

a libyan air force from attacking them and you can get medical supplies dropped is they now declare the government which means likely to be recognized planes could probably with land they're not asking put boots on the ground in the woods and not asking for american european arab troops on the ground they want to level playing field that they have a living level playing field i think we're going to see a new regime in tripoli but getting back to this so on one hand yes would be great if the u.n. would act but we know where you have a security council where there are two countries china and russia who were less indicated they opposed the free flight zone and they had vetoes so it has to be some other international body or an arab like it could be the arab league i wrote an op ed that was published here in cairo just really days ago telling each other naturally and how viable is that idea because i've heard that too and it would make sense because it's the region looking after itself and maybe for the first time the arab league could make sense. yes i agree in now what you need is

a country to play a leading role in demanding that the arab league acts like that and obviously that country should be egypt by all means egypt has just had a revolution of its own the army is is is he's acting sympathetically towards it it would seem to me that it's egypt should be demanding now act the arab league the media arab outlook and of course egypt would be the country that could best facilitate it because egypt has a very good air force that if i'm going to inherit if i were on the side of what i can if i go to paris or what about that idea instead of looking to the the great powers to solve the problems of the region because a lot of people say they were the fault of the of the root of some of the problems in supporting you cater you could you could you have a lot of if you have the region itself start policing itself yeah. first and i'm not i don't on the blame the others on the problems of the region i've always said and i've always written that the most of our problems are also the

product of the dysfunctioning of many aspects of our societies which would add to the interventions and the thought and it was about to go back to that the problem is that as in the us said before even in the region there are many in undemocratic governments in the arab region who would not see. a rationale or who would not justify the no fly zone because they consider that it is not that bad if gaddafi can stay for a while so that this movement would stop in libya and would not reach countries like syria or other places that fetus is a very very expensive machines are running out of time gentlemen here international community thanks to my guest today in cairo paris and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching this here r.t. see you next time and remember across. the. street. if you want to.

we hear it because our country out. god promised them this linda long stops. will if they are still going to be thinking. and gone chosen people will not believe that god is real estate ok it's not just for you guys in disguise as for you. this is. this for my.

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