these are the images seeing from the streets of canada. today. without a life from moscow recapping our top stories the crisis at the fukushima power plant in japan worsens as reports say a partial nuclear meltdown is under way for the country struggles to tackle the damage caused by the earthquake the official death toll has risen so were four thousand as for the survivors below zero temperatures are compounding the nightmare for over half a million left his place. and as radiation levels continue to rise japanese authorities claim there's no imminent threat to people's health and the country's track record of covering up past nuclear problem is makes many doubt the official

version of events. and in libya pro-government forces are retaking more land from the rebels and while the un is set to discuss imposing a no fly zone over the country a measure of opposed by most states. i'll call my colleague bill dawn will be here in about half an hour's time but i'll talk. now questions whether the arab countries currently protesting against their regimes but actually whether or not they'll get what they want or whether they even know what they want coming up next . we'll. bring you the latest in science and technology from the realms. of the future. can.

start. to think. a low and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle the arab world the power of people's hopes and the deadly reactions of tyrants what are the prospects for progress towards a more democratic arab middle east or tunisia egypt leading the way or are libya and saudi arabia still the norm and what role if any should the west play. can start. to discuss the sea change in the arab world i'm joined by let me sunday on the in amman she's a middle east analyst and journalist in london we go to taji mystify he's from his global islamic political party and in fresno we go to raymond he but i am he is an

associate director from the middle east forum and author of the al qaeda reader and another member of our crosstalk team on the hunger all right folks this is cross talk means you can jump in anytime you want to let me see if i can go to you first in amman right now we have a lot of things going on in the arab world right now we have a crackdown in bahrain we have the saudi forces that went in over a twenty four hours ago as we sit down for this discussion it has been reported that a protester killed one of the saudi troops we have mr gadhafi pushing further and further east as the west of the western world there is if it should intervene or not and given past history there are good reasons for that so what's the direction here isn't a norm in the greater middle east are we just stuck in a huge sandstorm and we don't know which way it's going to go. where is the sense of excitement and euphoria that has engulfed their poor of unhealth the arab world few weeks ago is being replaced by deep concern and fear that this two issue is degenerating into civil strife especially after the setback for the revolutionaries

in libya and there is fear now that. the uprising in the in behind him could. and. would sit with intervention could deteriorate into and out and so did behave any conflict and she arsenic conflict so we are at a crossroad today and we're all very concerned ok if i can surely you can turn to you now raymond and our fresno where do you see is in a sandstorm i mean we just heard there are a number of things that are going on do you see a particular direction or are we still can't tell yet. i think we still can tell i think we need to try to adopt a more panoramic vision and try to take lessons from history and what i mean by that is we are in the early stages of the revolutions across the arab world we're watching history in the making in fact this is the sort of stuff that will actually

make it in the history books as opposed to so much of the other things that make major headlines every day but what we need to keep in mind is revolutions you know we're watching the first few months not not even we haven't even got a year in all that we're watching and if you look at earlier precedents from other nations other revolutions whether it's the american revolution the french revolution the russian revolution you'll find that there was bloodshed in the beginning but you know there was no way to predict how things ultimately end up it takes oftentimes a decade before you really see how all this will eventually turn up the fact is there is a lot of contending factors contributing to what we're watching and we're only aware of it oftentimes just a small aspect and i'll just give you one example i'm in touch with people in egypt and many people and in different parts of egypt and they give me their taken a lot of them are intimately related to what's going on and speaking to these people you'll find that each one of them has a different take one of them will tell you that what's really going on is primarily

the youth of egypt and that this is a good thing and that this will ultimately hopefully devolve into our company into a democracy then you have another person who lives a few miles away who's convinced that the muslim brotherhood is ultimately behind this and point the strings when you have other people talk about the egyptian military which in the media in america is in a way ironically has been touted as this great substitute for mubarak and then other more sober thinkers who are there are telling you that in many ways they're actually worse and not much has changed and if you really do go on the ground in egypt you'll find that there's a lot of of the same exact corruptions any sort of. if you. it's case kind of it was a if i'm going to taji there well we already have a precedent early in the in this process here if the revolutionary process if we can call it that we have we have. a seeming rip support for democratic forces have been called them democratic forces in egypt in tunisia

there's a lot of gathering over libya what to do about libya and certainly there is no strong american support behind the scenes things for saudi arabia so it really isn't a case by case basis isn't it and we're seeing different presidents set in different ways. they're all different cases but there is also a commonality and a commonality is the fact that whilst issues are still evolving and some facts have been established number one that the people want to have their voice heard the people demand change the slogan i shall beauty this carrot and leave them to people what a collapse of the system is uniform everywhere so what really we see on one level is a division between the people who have been oppress subjugated for years by western backed taters against the western backed rulers the reality in libya. and saudi other places he's a fight back by the rulers so really there's a clear division as to what the two sides are going forward and the rule is lost

forever no so these revolutions are works in progress but there will end up ultimately with the triumph of the people's will that's an inevitable force you cannot stop again but it's the u.s. and their allies and agents in the region are they fighting back now employ military force that cetera yes they are and that is to be expected so there is a lot still unfolding still to see but that the people want a new system in line with the values that believes that history free from the police state western interference and all about that are certainly been established right now where do we go from here what is the future lie this is the ongoing debate ultimately once we overcome this resistance by the rulers at the moment ok let me say that we don't have a very good president center in bahrain right now because it looks like the ruling class is going to say try to stay in power at all costs because they call it a security situation in the small island but you call in the military a thousand troops with tanks that mean that sounds very serious and we have

a report as we sat down here the violence has already started because of that incursion if we can put it that way yes i think i said i think that the arab leaders have. at first they were compelled. make to adapt and make changes and promise reforms but after they saw what happened in libya and the fact that the libyan president is ready to store his people and this country in order to stay in power they've been there really those unfortunately have been in power they've been to think that they could contain or crush. the uprising and this is what's happening in the hand at first the king. of the acted with violence with force then he promised reform then he called for dialogue and now he is. he is getting saudi arabia to help him crush their president in saudi arabia in the end but when but that doesn't mean that this is

the end of the illusion i think that a green with their others weaker from london is that new facts have been established that people are not going back they want accountable governments and they raided second thought ice what we have seen here is that people are it it certifies even to die in order to change the government or and to get more accountable governments to have more power sharing more say to put an end to repression and to put an end to corruption so we're going to see a big conflict between the people and the leaders and the and the regimes it has. the better is still at its beginning remain if anybody in fresno again how are they are is that a lot of these regimes i know there's a lot of them in there and they're in there some very nuanced differences among them but we hear the word reform and to what degree could a lot of the regimes reform to match the discourse of western what we would call western freedoms freedom of speech freedom of assembly. i would i would

argue not very well and similarly i'd like to actually go to. earlier point which goes to what you're saying which is that this is really the people's voice in the people's uprising and the people want to be heard and powers and i completely agree with that but i think it's very relevant for westerners to understand that when you hear these catchphrases which means people's voice or even the word democracy power sharing and you know more accountability that does not necessarily translate into what the western world understands as a democracy and what i mean by that is just just because you have the support of the people or what the people want as far as a majority will not necessarily translate into the understanding of a western secular democracy at all and i'll just give you some examples when you know when there are elections in algeria in one thousand nine hundred one is lists were completely poised to win when there were elections in for the people you know in the palestinian territories hamas and islamic state and you know classified as

a terrorist organization one so and this is i'm not trying to say that people should not have a voice be heard but i think it's important to keep in mind that these words which have a connotation to western ears do not necessarily mean the same thing they're sure that people want power and what they should be it's why and that's when i. go ahead let me jump in this is cross talk about why this is i don't think anyone if hamas wins it should have been given the chance to do it i mean it's not just because they sense not just in fact that in the end she are the biggest mistake was in ninety ninety one when this time aswan and there was a military intervention that soon become three into a cycle of violence and this is the same in palestine how must one and the word should have accepted that instead they were didn't accept the premise doesn't mean that they'd be messed up and that it is. not right this is going to be completely disagree. i agree i agree that if you want to be strictly fair about it yes the you

know the people want islamist regime and if you want to be objective that's their right but at the same time that does not mean the west should agree to that of a country or a movement like hamas is a terrorist organization so if the people wanted that's one thing. i like to just point out to my viewers that that the entire world does not look at hamas is a terrorist organization actually a small number of countries in the world look at the mosque as a terrorist or god. all right here on that point there is i mean john think i may jump in here after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the changing arab world stage with r.t. . yes

my name is daniel schmidt this is julian assange we're here to make a short presentation about the we can fix project. the first step in the fourth estate is to get information out about the real world. through him more on the matter. she refuses because you are going to be able to market. to find it difficult and you sauces and danger you would hunt me down and kill. this is exactly one of the reasons why we left the project because it has become more of a cult is all james bond with than the actual information. but thank you. so all the people around the won't. we.

q. welcome back to cross talk your little tree mind you were discussing new fault

lines in the arab world. q. but first let's see what russians think about all this the uprisings across the arab world are changing the face of the region people are demanding more dignity and greater political freedoms. lead to true revolutions and we'll live in a real change as events unfold the russian public opinion research center asked such as what is the most likely political outcome thirty eight percent think authorities will listen to the people twenty four percent said authorities are poised for greater tightening of their regimes and another nineteen percent do not believe in real changes in the region so what is the best name for the events being played out in the arab world. ok tetchy in london we were having an interesting discussion before the break about the nature of the. mocker see as it's understood

on the ground now it should should we be listening more closely on the ground what people want they are because israel and pointed out if you agree or disagree with him there's a certain western expectation of what democracy should mean as these events play out there is a difference between the two isn't there. absolutely there is when people on the ground they say democracy they do not mean they want to be like a front which bans muslim woman from wearing the headscarf they don't mean that they want to be like a pakistan or bangladesh so people come from particular perspective the arabs they're muslims they want for example polls show in two thousand and ten end of last year that they want to greater role for islam they don't want freedom of speech in the sense that you can insult the prophets of god whether that jesus or the prophet muhammad peace be upon them so i think really when people say democracy on the ground in the in the middle east right now they're doing two things one the right to elect their rulers to the right to

a culture the rulers without being thrown in jail and need to look to their values their history for a form of government that allows that democracy. to rule is and having a say and letting the rule is not the sole preserve of western democracy but what it all means is that they want secularism they want societies where religion doesn't have a role to play and i think western audiences are worse and worse and commentators maybe more precisely need to be very careful of trying to portray that what is good in the muslim world in the arab world has nothing to do with the realities on the ground which is a muslim population largely our population who have aspirations and don't want you emulate the west wholesale copy it's values copy it systems they want their own historical narrative of what agrees with their beliefs so for example you talk about the caliphate system as a sum of governance that would allow representation the rights of minorities an elected government this really is what they want not western secular liberal

democracy as most people understand in the west let me see if i go to you in amman and it's an interesting point there are right go ahead this is crosswalk jump right in. go ahead ma'am if i could just add to that first of all i do completely agree with what he said and i think we're on the same level of that and i do also the caliphate and i think you would agree with the fact. by and large these populations are muslim and that they would wish to see lawmakers sharia law implemented. what i would like to convey to the west is that this is not just simply a different form of government it is but historically and traditionally and one can argue doctrinally the concept of the caliphate and world view is fundamentally hostile to the non muslim world that does not mean it resurrects itself it will go . historically historically the caliphate well let me just let me finish historically the caliphate began in six thirty in arabia one hundred years later it

had spread to more and to spain and some pakistan through the jihad essentially through violence and conquest and it was consolidate in the very fact is that the muslim world as we know it today the overwhelming majority of it was conquered this is not western polemicist say this is in fact recorded in the most authoritative muslim arabic books so my point is that the caliphate and this is what i was trying to say earlier that sure people are free to pick whatever form of government they want and you know muslims or islam is can have that kind of government and objectively speaking that seems fair but that's why i'm saying the west needs to understand that if people get what they want which as the others were saying would be a caliphate these things are very much at odds with the ok with the concept of united nations for example go ahead jump in i know i disagree first for the everybody in tunisia in egypt and in the media have not been. they don't have any an islamist nature they are the material you know the arabs are muslim but they

have you since have nothing islamists they've been calling for an end to the governments freeing the fiefdom of the first free and fair elections and and. priest it's they understood these are universal values they are not simply western concepts secondly there is a very tiny minority discordant for the caliphate over the belief it is not really violent but people are not calling for it clifford they are more then they're not going for the believe it or leave islamic party is calling for a little of it and it has not been involved in any are there really is really the right i agree with that by the way. we're not. going to we have been working on the floor is what used it ok to. go ahead. i mean we have been on the ground environment is now going to zation the reporter we've been part of the demonstrations in tahrir square in tunis there's a point here the people are muslims what they lived under for

a large part of the last hundred years is islam what created for minorities where we live side by side in places like egypt was the caliphate so in the new going forward should there be a discussion of vibrant discussion about what system of government should people desire and i think we definitely will because of that discussion what's the worst cannot do on their backers to try to ignore the islamic aspirations that the people who want to have. have a say in how they run their lives i think the danger that people in the west face is simply to say look it is not a conspiracy is intolerable well the worst mr keep out of things they've supported dictators for the last thirty years they are in no position western governments are in no position to try to tell the muslim world what you have i will be a state which guarantees people's rights a state which has a fantastic track record so what you cannot do is ignore this reality yes there are

other people who are not muslims in the region but let's engage in a vibrant discussion about what is the way forward is western liberal democracy the only system of government of the earth wasn't solved in the european crisis in terms of the use. zone in terms of wars in iraq and afghanistan so why should people look to liberal democracy as if the sun rises from the west of course it doesn't look at this history of what's compatible with their values and their beliefs and this is why islam of the color definitely features on the table if i get around in the end in fresno it's a very interesting point can we just have a muslim democracy instead of a western democracy i mean this it's always couched in these either or terms is that really necessary or is that an artificial dichotomy. well the point is you can have if you talk about it again we have to bring back the concepts of the caliphate the notion of democracy the western notion of democracy does not exist the caliphate the whole point is you have a leader. of the khalif and he's the he's the head. and so the point is

as we were discussing it as i agree i can understand why people muslims don't want to implement the work of the cycle or western world view and i also agree that this is not people tend to think whether there are westerners or muslims that their way of seeing the world is the universal way of seeing the world and that other people don't see it simply because they're misguided and i think that's kind of thinking needs to be adjusted to understand you know so other people there are systems that the west would seem completely antithetical but to them they genuinely like it and they believe that this is the truth and now when you bring something like islam into the mix now you're talking about a divine message so there's no divine theological element involved but the main point that i'm getting at is you can have. faith in all that and in and of itself if they want. to rule for example i don't think that's a problem except of course for the minorities the non muslims because there is a discriminatory element in shari'a law for non muslims but. international level on

an international level the concept the very concept of a caliphate is is hostile by nature to everything else. is according to. that islam needs to spread now i'm also agreeing with you that i don't think all of the people who are engaged in these uprisings want an islamist regime i do agree with that and i think a lot of them want to know what the west should really do is try to differentiate between those who do want. to live i'd like to be sure you would like let me say i want to ask you a question as we're running out of time here i mean this is a very interesting discussion but let's look at facts on the ground i mean we've all been to. what kind of democracy might be proper might be inappropriate or talk a lot about models but let's talk about facts on the ground i mean we see protesters in bahrain being who knows by the time by the end of this day what will happen to them has nothing to do with democracy if it's islamic or western that's called brute force. well i think there i think we are off the mark here people i

was talking about fear societies and what's happened in egypt and tunisia is so important to the whole arab world that people are telling these remission yuri's are telling all forces in the arab world whether they are islam is without a bit let's just say killer or liberal this thing on forces that from now on we want isn't a think system of government from now on if there are free elections no party where there is islamists or communists or leftists or whatever it is its ideology is it cannot win a prize that color so this is why this change that we are witnessing is huge and many people are not is still grasping this is the nature of the change this is a message to this list as well that you are part of their principle not you are what of this democratic process but but people have to respect in my particular party system i think this has been very clear in their message and i think that the

muslim brotherhood for example in egypt has understood the message and so far it has been compliant kate at least kate let me say going to jump in here i'd like to get in thinking but i do give the last word in london you have twenty five seconds go right ahead. well the change is on president to change the move forward there is an attempt to hijack this change was to the car was in support of this dictator is now in the background trying to have a change of faces but no fundamental change there needs to be a real change of the systems of the constitutions so that the people who are one have a future which is in line with their beliefs and their values and i don't believe that that is simply by emulating some secular liberal democracy you can. see here just listen we've just started what's going to be a very long discussion for the region many thanks to my guest today in amman london and in fresno and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember across time things. start. to think it's going to.