crosstalk is coming up here in r t but first let's check in on the headlines explosions and heavy gunfire gone with the accountable for for like with coalition airstrikes showing no sign of abating experts are pointing up a lack of strategy and coordination among the allied forces. and halting japan's of counter the reactors of a quake damaged fukushima power plant that's rising black smoke from the evacuation of workers and firefighters i love of radiation have already reached tokyo with

people being advised not to drink tap water. and belgium has for a political record out the country's been great by deadlock over forming a new government for almost a year doesn't make tensions feel separatists nudes many experts say the e.u. member states may break up triggering a domino effect in the area. next as promised staying cross-talk neutral about his gas if there's more to the un military involvement in libya than meets the eye . please. liz. can. still. be.

chloe unwelcomed across town peter lavelle targeting libya is this a mission to protect innocent civilians or a rush for regime change with no plan for the people the war against gadhafi and the law of unintended consequences. can. still say. to discuss what is happening in libya i'm joined by a dallas lifer in cairo he is a professor emeritus at the american university in cairo in london we have sami ramadani he's a senior lecturer in sociology at london metropolitan university and in washington we cross to bradley blakeman a professor of public policy and politics at georgetown university and former deputy assistant to president george w. bush and another member of our cross talking yelena who got ha right a bell i'd like to go to you this is cross talk you've been on the program before and you know how it works here i'll be very blunt with you over the last few hours

complain about let's go back a week ago and then let's look at the last few hours a week ago a military intervention of any kind seems rather small i don't want to use the word remote but small and now a week later we're in a war and is it regime change and what about the law of unintended consequences. well officially isn't gene change officially this is an intervention to prevent the massacre of civilians one of the decisive one of the things that was very decisive i think in the shift in the position of the american president and also the security council was when colonel gadhafi went on the air and said he would be merciless when he stormed benghazi and that was in the middle of his offensive his counter offensive pushing the rebel forces the insurgent forces back and he went on the air and said we will go room to room house to house we will be merciless and so at that point.

because of various pressures that have to do with domestic french politics british or american whatever the world global television and the global television is a force in itself for moving people in certain directions there was this decision this has to be put a stop to and the basis of getting it through the security council and then again the meeting in paris was that this is not region change this is protecting the civilian population now you can argue and i would pray that is the case that if in order to protect a civilian for instance benghazi was being heavily shelled by artillery and tank fire civilians ok so the airstrikes wipe those forces out but the same thing is happening elsewhere and it could be argued that if if you wipe out if there are strikes wipe out the very instruments which is heavy artillery tanks air power that had been killing civilians meaning rebel civilians in towns held by the rebels this

might create a more even playing field and there would be really seen change but the regime change is not going to come from nato it's not coming from the united nations it's not coming from the brits the french it will be coming from a armed libyan people who rose up first peacefully and then when they got fired down in the streets shot down in the streets of tripoli they took on and the other ones in this region change they're the ones we're going to have a. the question is can they do it ok but if gratifying i go to you in washington i mean it is turning into regime change isn't it because we the west has chosen sides it's chosen sides i mean it's pretty to protect people that is the resolution from the united nations security council but to protect people it is going to have to defeat military forces that could potentially harm people i mean this is this is a mission creep isn't it well first and foremost the professor is right our mission is to protect innocent lives the innocence of libya that is our core mission having

said that certainly we're involved in regime change what you're seeing in our coalition is not only to protect the innocent lives of libyans who are being persecuted by their own government and their own leader but our mission is to remove gadhafi either dead or alive let's face it that is not anybody that is in the ad this guy isn't a u.n. resolution though see this is what i'm getting is not the u.n. yeah but you were of the resolution is pretty vague and leaves it leaves it up to interpretation as to what exactly we are empowered to do with our allies and i can tell you this you heard from our attorney general today in washington eric holder you've heard for president several times that this guy must go and ok but is it or that is their business ok whose business is it to get rid of gadhafi sam if i can go to you here because this is you know going from the right to protect to regime change in the course of a few hours it looks like. well that's what i've always suspected i think the

united states and britain's own problems is to control libya and libyan oil remember that throughout the middle east there are enormous up evils and generally these up evils are calling for democracy freedom and crucially for independence and democracy and independence goes contrary to u.s. interests in the region getting a controlling the region getting the cheap oil supporting israel and so on are all priorities and i don't think protecting civilians is a priority at all as the facade that's the excuse that's being used to to wage yet another war remember what happened in iraq you think it's a good way of snow yes although they say me do you think that khadafi should remain and that he should be bombing his own people in committing atrocities as your own people is that would you know i don't think i'll just let me let me say show me

that i had sammy going to let me finish you you interrupted me i didn't hear the gaddafi is a ruthless dictator but it's for the libyan people to overthrow gadhafi just like it's for the egyptian people to avert a throw mubarak for them but i need people to overthrow their king bahrain is a small island about six hundred thousand barrel a nice they are being killed tortured nurses and doctors are getting arrested prevented from treating the injured it is the headquarters of the fifth fifth fleet of the united states is practically the u.s. colony so did tons move in out the behest of u.s. support where is where is the protection of civilians in bahrain where is it in yemen this this war on libya is not about qaddafi it's not about the libyan people it's about controlling a very strategic country. rich. three that supplies the west supplies europe with

very cheap oil they have reached agreement with the truth tater and two thousand and four the united states britain france italy bury her ability to have been backing him to have even been arming them some of the planes bombing that were bombing people in libya where french made some of the weapons he's using are western major so don't don't go running don't talk to me about about this is hypocritical of this abdalla jumping. no priest precisely this is the point they already have the oil there was so cozy was receiving kentucky several almost two months ago so it isn't about oil because get out these bit was rehabilitated and as part of the you know it's been pocketing his share of the oil and the always been flowing not only is it will know about who or what people have risen. his people have risen and these people are not controlled by the united states the area nice

state is moving in with their with some european powers to provide millions of people over there if things are a girl's even the rebels will be out of the mercy of the united states the endgame is to divide libya and pretty soon ok that's a very good point gentlemen let me jump in here just point if i go to brad ok bret the interesting point it's been brought up here what if this current military operation however you want to call it isn't successful meaning khadafi isn't just thrown just in thrown out have we the west western powers partitioned libya is that is in anyone's interest a partition or are they going to forever protect benghazi in other areas this is what i'm getting at is the law of unintended consequences i mean what if you can't get rid of gadhafi with planes alone. well look that's going to be right we don't know how this thing is going to play out bullshitting we know what it's going to play and before we go and no we should have no doubt there's anybody how does anybody know how

a war is going to turn out we hope that we are not you know right decisions were put on the right you assets towards that towards that decision but look and nobody has a crystal ball but one thing is for sure and that is khadafi must go he must go and we've already made that decision with our allies and now we've got to see it through we've made a mistake in in gulf war one one we freed kuwait we should have removed that dictator at that time it was our mistake shame on us we didn't do it so we had to wait a number of years to get the job done the second time but to the iraqi people are you are you to the libyan people to be jumpin go ahead. me tell you what i semi-colon t h l i tell you i shall i tell you why the united states did not remove saddam in ninety nine to one because there was a massive upheaval in iraq an uprising and uprising was us as well as on to side they would rather keep saddam down than have the iraqi people can throw in nonsense dr gonna say i cover it is me or hell to marry someone like you if you were your

son no he wanted me like we didn't eliminate the reason why we did a lemonade saddam hussein in gulf war one is because we made a deal with our coalition partners in order to maintain our cold notion that we would remove a could do was remove saddam from kuwait i would be the end of our nation is helicopter gunships you have you have air cover over iraq there was that no fly zone in iraq but you are allowed to use this helicopter gunships to go knocking people down peter i don't hear aki and i said i know what i'm saying is about ok. go ahead before we go to the brain go ahead thirty alter the fact ok two two things first iraq ninety one i covered it all right i covered first the n.b.c. and then for the saudis and the uprising in kurdistan the last and in this. south it is the shiite uprising the south was not anti american just the opposite right when george bush out heels on the radio and said rise up the south in the north rose up the trouble is that we americans be trained that read that uprising and

we're paying the price for that and then why do we betray it i don't know the i'll tell you why i don't know why because we were counting on the generals themselves the iraqi general staff to overthrow sadam and that was really that really our deal with adults because they we here in we were extraordinarily. rough sign and try to shore stuff siaca deal with that with general general sort of plan for this is not easy there are many others are veterans he goes along go ahead sammy know he knew the rag article you look it's return incredible written in a horse course on go to general schwarzkopf he reached the deal with the generals allowing the guns had all right gentlemen let me jump in here we're going to go to a break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on libya state mccartney.

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fact there are more pharmaceutical industry lobbyists in washington d.c. and members of congress. it's. the old. bringing you the latest in science and technology from around the world. we've got the huge earth covered. and the k.k.k. . and. you can. welcome back to crossfire concrete or a little tree mind you were talking about the implementation of the u.n. resolution on libya. and egypt. but first let's see what russians think about this organization. with no debate and

no objective another conflict has started immediately after the un resolution on libya was adopted the coalition started to implement it resolution nine hundred seventy three imposes a no fly zone over libya and measures to protect civilians from walmart his forces and the same time there are those who see this as another military intervention war the russian public at me a research center says the attitude of citizens towards the un thirty eight percent said they have positive feelings and another twenty nine percent feel negative towards their organization with this in mind russia abstained from voting on the un security council resolution what will happen in libya remains open to question. ok brian i'd like to ask you the first question here and it goes down to nation building country building hasn't the west had enough of that after iraq and after

afghanistan because this looks like again the law of unintended consequences ok if the u.s. and it looks like the u.s. and its allies have chosen to support the rebels ok that's what it looks like ok who exactly these people are is not very clear to me or it seems the anybody else ok but so the u.s. and its allies are making a commitment to somehow rebuild the nation of libya haven't we learned from our past experiences go right ahead. so we have to play the hand we're dealt and the hand it world out there is this we're seeing a complete meltdown of authoritarian rule in north africa and in the middle east what does the united states or allies do sit back and let it occur when people are rising up and asking for help in atrocities are being made against their people by their own governments is that what america and our allies should do you know we need to stand with the people who are standing up against but there are terrible could we got to help it happen and also not fair is what we heard also on the

program what about bahrain we're not talking about them we're not protecting their rights and you're helping with it what about o.p.m. and you know your economy as well you know that well in places in the world where people want to be free but it seems they go to a place like libya where there's oil and i'm not the person that usually raises that issue or oil first or what do you think about it sam and so i mean libya well its allies the sammy if i could go to you i mean going back to the nation building issue here i mean should the west be involved in this i think the road record is pretty poor to date. it's more like nation destruction than nation building they have destroyed iraq its entire infrastructure still produces less electricity that . dictatorship sewage water is willing thrown into the water that's for the more than the more than a million more more than a million iraqis have big killed the iraqi state is not themselves course and the world this is you're making out here is actually she's going all wrong you'll go and check you'll go and check that you rather have determined how we're going to

check me would you have or have done or how or yes or no no no why is it unfair here you are a gentleman no desire to leave. the gentleman we don't believe we have and we get this very we did it we don't really need the army this is no better if saddam were in power of the debts and i will tire no one here last time i was real you i would like to go to war get high road gentlemen please yeah ok let's just stay here the nation building in the greater middle east when we see and i want to talk about is that how does this affect the democratic process that is awakening in the arab world which i think i hope all of us are support ok and and i would say the libyans deserve just as much but i think sami made a very interesting point is this nation building as a nation destroying go ahead a doll ok let's let's talk about libya ok the spirit that and they did the uprising in libya is the same spirit in egypt however and the same spirit in tunis the differences that ben ali. rep repressive busy was corrupt as he was is not mad

and and will barak repressive busy years and corrupt as he was was not mad but in the case of what started as a just business started elsewhere as peaceful demonstrations were then fired upon mercenaries were brought in from sub-saharan africa firing on the people and so the people took off bombs now what i wish cancer sami is i wish we had a number of the interim government the provisional government in benghazi on this show. and he would say we have asked for these airstrikes because without these airstrikes you could talk all you want about iraq and nation building without these airstrikes then ghazi right now who would be mad at the people going crazy right now would be massacred just look at the footage today another jersey or and you see dozens of living libyan army khadafi in tanks and armored cars heading to benghazi they were shelling benghazi and he promised he would he would be merciless so the point is the libyan uprising libya insurgents themselves have asked and i was let

me just run one of the point they had asked for in the event secondly how do you clarify this problem that the u.n. resolution is for protecting civilians and yet it's very clear that a number of us are cheering for the insurgency i certainly am i'm flying the old libyan flag now in my apartment and the way it is the united states should recognize the provisional government like france did then the united states participates in the u.n. operation which is no fly but it deals with and are recognized legitimate government and control it can supply them when ever they want arms ok already training there over to georgia to missy to be later but examine you said you want to jump in so go right ahead. yes because you see this is all very nicely as if it's a humanitarian mission i go back to my point which is that this is essentially dressed up as a humanitarian mission and the days and weeks to come will show that the libyan

people will pay a very heavy price not only for these crimes and ruthlessness but also for this western intervention this will escalate this situation it will bring more bloodshed but other than less bloodshed and that is my point i to support any other semi and you want to leave is beyond your holiness let's be limited our court was where i would rather just back in like innocent only free piled high to be our own people and could you when you look look let me finish a spray finish my point if you are really serious about freedom and democracy go on start with the places that you control but rain so would the area be a young man or man jordan morrocco. under mubarak you are you are being hypocritical here all of these the ruthless to you could you put an arm through that who is you know who was telling her a journalist and and now we are moving and now you are moving in to destroy these

countries even more to prevent their people waging their struggle themselves independence they want freedom they want their locality they want they don't want your bombers and tomahawk missiles all right to destroy a great country i didn't brand you had i did go to brag now gentlemen i like to go to brad brad let's hypothetical ok no one can predict the future how far should this intervention go in libya based on the resolution of the united nations and maybe we'll need a new one but we have no fly it's as we're speaking right now they're going to extend it most likely the u.s. says it's good it slightly back off and move pass it on to nature we'll see if that happens but i mean is there you know given what you've said on this program is there a logical one point time to put boots on the ground. i think boots inevitably will have to be put on the ground if the mission is to be successful and that's the removal of gadhafi now will it be american boots hopefully not hopefully our allies and the arab league will pony up some troops so they're the first ones arabs are

the first ones on the ground to free arabs we would love to see that here in america a more of a backward approach where america will will provide the technology but arab nations first and foremost will provide the boots on the ground in order to stabilize libya that would be the best case scenario is this guy is gone and arab troops come in provide a provisional government for the people of libya and we move on ok abdullah and we don't sami mention the whole litany of countries that the united states supports and the arab middle east that probably need a lot of reform i think we'd all agree with all those leaders in our while watching this what initiatives they have now to reform because if you don't reform you're going to get struck by the u.s. and its allies you see the logic where i'm going on this it has it could have a very counterproductive and a very counterproductive would put it go ahead i would put it another way i would put it the other way which is that retiring would be tyrant in the arab world it's

good that he can get away with it can that he can get away with nasa during these people as serbia was not surprising the people bosnia and almost got away with it if it weren't for intervention and that's why i find the discussion coming from sami to be incredible i said it before i go to benghazi now they certainly want to write me i'm an odd sort of a problem i want to talk about libya the no no listen this is how much how is the sudanese are to there are no rules what is the difficulty. i'm saying here is a signal that it is it is critical we're going to kill more in libya and there is you richard. oh like they completely do you know who i'm just you you were obsessed with iraq iraq if we had gone to war smiley and ninety was because you are the holder nearly america that of course i am. talking about i remember what you were on that are not crimes in iraq i mean our coverage i'm going to get afghanistan as well just look at live pictures now not cover afghanistan today off u.s.

soldiers killing thousands of innocent that gun is not and this is a demagogue who wrote this it was sort of we're here to talk about libya you want to do a show next week about iraq fine well we're here to talk about libya i don't care about intel we're doing the show about u.s. policy ok brad i'd like to call you when you think we should we are going to go to you and watch in washington brad. what is it you think that the united states is trying to get on the right side of history here i'm not sure it's doing the right thing but i mean considering its long term backing of ben ali and we had mubarak and whatnot i mean the united states is trying to find its footing here and how we should treat a very radically changing environment in north africa right now which again i think most of us would agree with it's the right trends here but is the u.s. overcompensating does it have a plan do you think. well hopefully this president has a plan he's but he's and his administration have been waffling and flip flopping

the last few weeks as to what exactly our plan is there is no defined end game for the united states and libya and that's why i say this is mission creep in one side of the our government is telling us that this is a humanitarian effort and the other side is saying regime change but i'm telling you this is regime change and it is helping the people of libya we're going to end who knows that remains to be seen but one thing is for sure and that is this we have a coalition together it's not the united states that's taking taking a frog role in for the first time the arab league has come and said an arab leader must go all right isn't all right you know how it seems to me and we've run out of time and i would invite you all to come to the program next week to see what is happening in libya many thanks my guess now today in washington and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember prostitutes. can. still.

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