tv [untitled] March 23, 2011 5:30pm-6:00pm EDT
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approach their approach has been very heavy handed and we've talked about this and they're in a run by people don't you aren't even from there and even stuff like like like radio free europe or the old man of the old school radio sometimes the old school penetration like radio can get through this jamming you know and we don't even know about what's going on with social media social media has worked in places like tunisia where you have a population the educated and already pretty much you know on that wireless n y five wireless and wired to in china you have a whole population there but it can what do you what are you being to the chinese that is chris chambers a professor at georgetown university and that's going to do it for more on the stories we covered go to r.t. dot com slash usa and christine for now thanks for watching. in canada and the us that it is legal for you to get
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a bubble bath on your baby that contains a known carcinogen something that causes cancer and most of the trying to write another book independents day are sponsored by in the spirit and most of the great places a call for coffee just today an average cancer drug prescription costs nearly one thousand six hundred dollars a month oh my god nobody with cancer in my five therefore i protest. because ninety to ninety five percent of cancers hurts people with health funny history of cancer a pharmaceutical industry spends about fourteen percent of their budget on research and development and about thirty one percent for marketing and administration. in fact there are more pharmaceutical industry lobbyists in washington d.c. and members of congress. to.
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a. mum. can. start. to think. along in welcome to cross talk and people about targeting libya is this a mission to protect innocent civilians or a rush for regime change with no plan for the people the war against gadhafi and the law of unintended consequences. can. start. to discuss what is happening in libya i'm joined by our dallas leifer in cairo he is a professor emeritus at the american university in cairo in london we have sami ramadani he's a senior lecturer in sociology at london metropolitan university and in washington
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we cross to bradley blakeman a professor of public policy and politics at georgetown university and former deputy assistant to president george w. bush and another member of our crosstalk team elena hunger all right a bell i'd like to go to you this is crosstalk you've been on the program before and you know how it works here i'll be very blunt with you over the last few hours well let's go back a week ago and then let's look at the last few hours a week ago a military intervention of any kind seemed rather small i want to use the word remote but small and now a week later we're in a war and is it regime change and what about the law of unintended consequences. well officially it isn't gene change officially this is an intervention to prevent the massacre of civilians one of the decisive one of the things that was very decisive i think in the the shift in the position of the american president and also the security council was when colonel
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gadhafi went on the air and said he would be merciless when he stormed benghazi and that was in the middle of his offensive his counter offensive pushing the rebel forces the insurgent forces back and he went on the air and said we will go room to room house to house we will be merciless and so at that point. because of various pressures that have to do with domestic french politics british are very whatever the world global television i mean global television is a force in itself for moving people in certain directions there was this decision this has to be put a stop to and the basis of getting it through the security council and then again the meeting in paris was that this is not a region change this is protecting the civilian population now you can argue and i would pray that is the case that is in order to protect a civilian for instance benghazi was being heavily shelled by artillery and tank
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fire civilians ok so all of the airstrikes by those forces out but the same thing is happening elsewhere and it could be argued that if if you white out if they asked rights wipe out the very instruments which is heavy artillery tanks airpower that had been killing civilians meaning rebel civilians and thousand by the rebels this might create a more even playing field and there will be really regime change but the regime change is not going to come from nato it's not coming from the united nations it's not coming from the brits the french it will be coming from a armed libyan people who rose up first peacefully and then when they got fired down in the streets shot down in the streets of tripoli they took our bonds and they are the ones of his regime change they're the ones we're going to have a. the question is can they do it ok well if gratifying i go to you in washington i mean it is turning into a regime change isn't it because we the west has chosen sides it's chosen sides i mean it's pretty to protect people that is the resolution from the united nations
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security council but to protect people it is going to have to defeat military forces that could potentially harm people i mean this is this is a mission creep isn't it well first and foremost the professor's right that our mission is to protect innocent lives the innocence of libya that is our core mission having said that certainly we're involved in regime change what you're seeing in our coalition is not only to protect the innocent lives of libyans who are being persecuted by their own government and their own leader but our mission is to remove gadhafi either dead or alive let's face it that is not anybody that is in the ad is that it isn't a u.n. resolution though see this is what i'm getting is not the u.n. yeah but the u.n. record resolution is pretty vague and leaves it leaves it up to interpretation as to what exactly we are empowered to do with our allies and i can tell you this you heard from our attorney general today in washington eric holder you've heard from
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our president several times that this guy must go and ok because a lot of that is business are you ok whose business is it to get rid of gadhafi sam if i can go to you here because this is you know going from the right to protect to regime change in the course of a few hours it looks like. well that's what i've always suspected i think the united states. returns on promise to control libya libyan oil remember that throughout the middle east there are enormous up evils and generally these up peoples are calling for democracy freedom and crucially for independence and democracy and independence goes contrary to us interests in the region getting controlling the region getting to cheap oil supporting israel and so on are all proud it is and i don't think protecting civilians is a priority at all as the facade that's the excuse that's being used to to wage yet
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another war remember what happened in iraq you think. oh hey sanny do you think that could duffy should remain and that he should be guarding his own people and committing atrocities on your own people as i would you know i don't think i should let me show it to be a serious issue i mean i had sammy going to let me finish you but you you interrupted me i'd interrupt you the path is a ruthless dictator but it's for the libyan people to overthrow gadhafi just like it's for the people talk or throw mubarak for the bad i need people to overthrow their king bahrain is a small island about six hundred thousand barrels knees that are being killed tortured nurses and doctors are getting arrested prevented from treating the injured it is they had quarters of the fifth fifth fleet of the united states is practically a u.s. colony so did times move in out the behest of u.s.
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support where is where is the protection of civilians in bahrain where is it in yemen this this war on libya is not about gaddafi it's not about the libyan people it's about controlling a very strategic country an oil rich. three that supplies the west supplies europe with very cheap oil they have reached agreement with the truth kate and two thousand and four the united states britain france and italy very happily tate it could have been backing him back even being part of some of the planes bombing that were bombing people in libya where french made some of the weapons he's using are worse than major so don't don't go don't talk to me about that about this is hippocratic oath of this ideology. no priest precisely this is the point they already have the oil there was so close he was receiving khadafi several although
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not two months ago so it isn't about oil because kicked out these bit was rehabilitated and is part of the you know it's been pocketing his share of the oil and he always been flowing not only is a war about who are the people people have risen. his people out risen and these people are not controlled by the united states and israel and i states is moving in with their with some european powers to provide millions of people all over the region if these arrivals even the rebels will be out of the ministry of the united states the end game is to deprive libya and to to ok that's a very good point gentlemen let me jump in here just point if i go to brad ok perhaps the interesting point has been brought up here what if this current military operation however you want to call it isn't successful meaning khadafi isn't just thrown isn't thrown out have we the west western powers partitioned libya is that is in the anyone's interest a partition are they going to forever protect benghazi in other areas this is what
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i'm getting at is the law of unintended consequences i mean what if you can't get rid of gadhafi with planes alone. well look that's going to be right we don't know how this thing is going to play out politically we knew it was going to play as we can we don't know we how should have known how did this anybody how does anybody know how a war is going to turn out we hope that we are not you know right decisions were put on the right you assets towards that towards that decision but look and nobody has a crystal ball but one thing is for sure and that is khadafi must go he must go and we've already made that decision with our allies and now we've got to see it through we've made a mistake in in gulf war one one we freed kuwait we should have removed that dictator at that time it was our mistake shame on us we didn't do it so we have to wait a number of years to get the job done the second time but who the iraqi people are you are you the libyan people to me jump in go ahead it's really tell you why sammy tell you i shall i tell you why the united states did not remove saddam and nine
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hundred ninety one because there was a massive upheaval in iraq on the uprising and the uprising was to us as well as and to saddam they would rather keep saddam down than have the iraqi people can throw it on science friday nonsense i covered it was before he was in new zealand arguing you were all give us a reason why we didn't eliminate the reason why we did a lemonade saddam hussein in gulf war one is because we made a deal with our coalition partners in order to maintain our coalition that we would remove if he would loosen down from kuwait that would be the end of our mission is helicopter gunships you have you have yes air cover over iraq there was that no fly zone in iraq but you are allowed to use there's alec up got a gun ship to gun the people down peter i don't hear rocky and i know what i'm saying is about ok abdallah in cairo yesterday in cairo go ahead before we go to the break away and sort of the fact ok ok two two things first iraq ninety one i
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covered it all right i covered first the n.b.c. and then for the saudis and the uprising in kurdistan and then the last and in the . south and he is the shiite uprising the south was not anti american just the opposite right when george bush he was on the radio and said rise up the south in the north rose up the trouble is that we americans be trade that grab that uprising and we're paying the price for that and then why do we betray it i don't know because tell you why i don't know why i because we were counting on the generals themselves the iraqi general staff to overthrow sadam and that was the that we are dealing with that is because they knew we had a we were tracking the barrel still shows who have signed short shorts curbside to deal with that with general general sold on its presence is not really running out is there a battle as he goes along go ahead sam the newly formed. look at its return incredible ridden a horse cross to own book genera shores cross he reached
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no objective another conflict has started immediately after the un resolution on libya was adopted the coalition started to implement it resolution nine hundred seventy three imposes a no fly zone over libya and measures to protect civilians from walmart his forces at the same time there are those who see this as another military intervention of war the russian public opinion research center says the attitude of citizens towards the un thirty eight percent said they have positive feelings and another twenty nine percent feel negative towards their organization with this in mind russian state from voting on the un security council resolution what will happen in libya remains open question. ok brian i'd like to ask you the first question here goes down to nation building country building hasn't the west had enough of that
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after iraq and after afghanistan because this looks like the again the law of unintended consequences ok if the u.s. and it looks like the u.s. and its allies have chosen to support the rebels ok ok that's what it looks like ok who exactly these people are is not very clear to me or it seems to anybody else ok but so the u.s. and its allies are making a commitment to somehow rebuild the nation of libya haven't we learn from our past experiences go right ahead. so we have to play the hand we're dealt and the hand it will develop is this we're seeing a complete meltdown of authoritarian rule in north africa and in the middle east what does the united states or allies do sit back and let it occur when people are rising up and asking for help and atrocities are being made against their of people by their own governments is that what america and our allies should do you know we need to stand with the people who are standing up against again or at their own we're going to hell with what happened and also it's not fair is what we heard also on the program what about bahrain we're not talking about them we're not protecting
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their rights and you're helping with it what about oh yeah man you know america me as well you know there are the places in the world where he will want to be free but it seems to go to a place like libya where there's oil and i'm not a person that usually raises that issue or oil first what do you think about that it is happening so i mean libya well its allies to sammy if i could go to you i mean going back to the nation building issue here i mean should the west be involved in this i think the road record is pretty poor to date. it's more like nation destruction and nation building they have destroyed iraq its entire infrastructure still produces less electricity that van and. their shared sewage water is being thrown into the water but for about thirty or more than a million more more than a million iraqis have big killed the iraqi state is not themselves course and the world this is you're making out here is actually she's going all out you go and check you go i'm checking that you rather have determined how we're going to check
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or sammy would you rather have also done your our yes or no no no i said amen terror here i love you all right gentlemen always relieved. that the gentleman we don't need we don't mean that is very we did it we don't really need the army it isn't a matter if saddam were in power of that's a that's an all tired no one here last time i was ideal you were going to go to war get high road gentlemen please yeah ok let's try the state. building of troops in the greater middle east when we see it i want to talk about is there how does this affect the democratic process that is awakening in the arab world which i think i hope all of us are support ok and and i would say the libyans deserve just as much but i think sami made a very interesting point is this nation building as a nation destroying go ahead of dollars ok let's let's talk about libya ok the spirit that in the uprising in libya is the same spirit in egypt however in the same spirit into this the differences that ben ali. repressive busy was corrupt as
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he was is not mad and and will barak repressive busy years and corrupt as he was was not mad but in the case of what started as a just this is sudden elsewhere as peaceful demonstrations were then fired upon mercenaries were brought in from sub-saharan africa firing on the people and so the people took off on now what i wish to answer sami is i wish we had a number of the interim government the provisional government in benghazi on this show. and he would say we have asked for these airstrikes because without these airstrikes you could talk all you want about iraq and nation building without these airstrikes then ghazi right now who would be now the people doing ghazi right now would be massacred just look at the footage today and al-jazeera and you see dozens of live at libyan army khadafi and tanks and armored cars heading to benghazi they were shelling benghazi and he promised he would he would be merciless so the point is the libyan arise and the libyan or insurgents themselves have asked and i was
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let me just run one of the point they had asked for intervention secondly how do you clarify this problem that the u.n. resolution is for protecting civilians and yet it's very clear that a number of us are cheering for the insurgency i certainly am i'm flying the old libyan flag now in my apartment and the way it is the united states should recognize the provisional government like france did then the united states participates in the u.n. operation which is no fly but it deals with and recognize a legitimate government and country can supply them with now because they want our arms ok are you trying to overthrow egypt mysie to the later examine you said you want to jump in so go right ahead. yes because you see this is all very nice nice to be a poet if it's a humanitarian mission i go back to my point which is that this is essentially dressed up as a humanitarian mission and the days and weeks to come will show that the libyan
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people will pay a very heavy price not only for these crimes and who has but also for this western intervention this will escalate this situation it will bring more bloodshed that out than less bloodshed and that is my point i to support any other semi you want to leave is beyond your earliest let's be really rather sorry for what i what i would rather sit back and look innocent only piled while you have your own people look at you when you look look let me finish a spray finish my point if you are really serious about freedom and democracy go and start with the places that you control but rain so we get rabia young man oh man jordan morocco egypt under mubarak you are now you are being hypocritical here all of these ruthless to you because you're pulling through the who is you know who was selling her insurance and and now you are moving and now you are
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moving in to destroy these countries even more to prevent their people waging their struggle themselves independence they want freedom they want democratic they want they don't want your bombers and tomahawk missiles all right to destroy a great country i didn't brand you had i did go to brag now gentlemen i did go to brad brad let's hypothetical ok no one can predict the future how far should this intervention go in libya based on the resolution of the united nations that maybe they'll need a new one but we have no fly it is we're speaking right now they're going to extend it most likely the u.s. is going to slightly back off and move pass it on to nato will see if that happens but i mean is there you know given what you've said on this program is there a logical one point time to put boots on the ground. i think boots inevitably will have to be put on the ground if the mission is to be successful method removal of gadhafi now will it be american boots hopefully not hopefully our allies and the arab league will pony up some troops so they're the first ones arabs are the first
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ones on the ground to free arabs we would love to see that here in america a more of a a backward approach where america will will provide the technology but arab nations first and foremost will provide the boots on the ground in order to stabilize libya that would be the best case scenario is this guy is gone and arab troops come in provide a provisional government for the people of libya and we move on ok abdullah and we don't know sami mentioned a whole litany of countries that the united states supports and the arab middle east that probably need a lot of reform i think we'd all agree with all those leaders are now all watching this what initiatives they have now to reform because if you don't reform you're going to get struck by the u.s. and its allies you see the logic around going on this it has it could have a very counterproductive could be very how to produce i would put it go ahead i would put it the other way i would put it the other way which is that every tyrant would be tyrants in the arab world if khadafi can get away with it can daffy can
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get away with nasty green his people as serbia was not serving the people of bosnia and almost got away with it if it weren't for intervention and that's why i find the discussion coming from sandy to be incredible i said if people go to benghazi now they certainly want to hear us right now you have an odd sort of a problem let's not really very liberally you know this is this is an arm of how the sudanese are to their own narrow saying what is the difficulty. i'm saying it isn't going to help then it isn't a very critical what could a more libyans you richard. oh like they completely who are against you you are obsessed with iraq iraq if we agree wholeheartedly and ninety was because you are the holder nearly america that of course is a loser just because we are are talking about everywhere what you are on that are not crimes in iraq and you are covered young girl in your eyes in afghanistan as well just look at live pictures now coming out of afghanistan today if your
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soldiers killing thousands of innocent of gun is not and this is demagoguery with this sort of we're here to talk about libya you want to do a show next week about iraq fine but we're here to talk about libya i don't care about intel that's really really sure about us policy ok brad i'd like to believe you when you think we should go you and i to go to you and watch in washington brad . what is that you think that the united states is trying to get on the right side of history here i'm not sure it's doing the right thing but i mean considering its long term backing of ben ali and we had moved mubarak and whatnot i mean the united states is trying to find its footing here and how we should treat a very radically changing environment in north africa right now which again i think most of us would agree with it's the right trends here but is the u.s. overcompensating does it have a plan do you think. well hopefully this president has a plan he's but he's and his administration have been waffling and flip flopping
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the last few weeks as to what exactly our plan is there is no defined end game for the united states and libya and that's why i say this is mission creep in one side our government is telling us that this is a humanitarian effort and the other side is saying regime change but i'm telling you this is regime change and it is helping the people of libya we're going to end who knows that remains to be seen but one thing is for sure and that is this we have a coalition together it's not the united states that's taking taking the front row for the first time the arab league has come and said an arab leader must go all reason all right you know in the passage i mean we've run out of time and i would invite you all to come to the program next week to see what is happening in libya many thanks to my guest today in washington and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember prostates rules.
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