educated and already pretty much on that wireless and why fly wireless and wired to it in china you have a whole population there but again what do you do you being to the chinese that was chris chambers professor at georgetown university and all the time we have but for more on the stories we covered go to r.t. dot com slash usa or youtube dot com last r.t. america and christine for example have a great time. the latest in science and technology from the realm. of the future are covered.

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blow in welcome to crossfire computer lavelle targeting libya is this a mission to protect innocent civilians or a rush for regime change with no plan for the people the war against gadhafi and the law of unintended consequences. came to the streets. to discuss what is happening in libya i'm joined by our dallas leifer in cairo he is a professor emeritus at the american university in cairo in london we have sami ramadani he's a senior lecturer in sociology at london metropolitan university and in washington we cross to bradley blakeman a professor of public policy and politics at georgetown university and former deputy assistant to president george w. bush and another member of our crosstalk team here on hunger all right adela i'd like to go to you this is crosstalk you've been on the program before and you know how it works here i'll be very blunt with you over the last few hours complain about let's go back a week ago and then let's look at the last few hours

a week ago a military intervention of any kind seems rather small i don't want to use the word remote but small and now a week later we're in a war and is it regime change and what about the law of unintended consequences. well officially it isn't really gene change officially this is an intervention to prevent the massacre of civilians one of the decisive one of the things that was very decisive i think in the the shift in the position of the american president and also the security council was when colonel gadhafi went on the air and said he would be merciless when he stormed benghazi and that was in the middle of his offensive his counter offensive pushing the rebel forces the insurgent forces back and he went on the air and said we will go room to room house to house we will be merciless and so at that point. because of various pressures that have to do with domestic french politics british

library or whatever the world global television i mean global television is a force in itself for moving people in certain directions there was this decision this has to be put a stop to and the basis of getting it through the security council and then again the meeting in paris was that this is not a gene change this is protecting the civilian population well you can argue and i would pray that is the case that if in order to protect a civilian for instance benghazi was being heavily shelled by artillery and tank fire civilians ok so the airstrikes wipe those forces out but the same thing is happening elsewhere and it could be argued that if if you white out if the air strikes wipe out very instruments which is heavy artillery tanks air power that has been killing civilians rebel civilians in towns held by the rebels this might create a more even playing field and there will be really regime change but the regime

change is not going to come from nato it's not coming from the united nations it's not coming from the brits the french it will be coming from a armed libyan people who rose up first peacefully and then when they got fired down in the streets shut down in the streets of tripoli they took up arms and they are the ones that this region change they're the ones going to do have a. the question is can they do it ok well if gratifying i go to you in washington i mean it is turning into a regime change isn't it because we the west has chosen sides it's chosen sides i mean it's pretty to protect people that is the resolution from the united nations security council but to protect people it is going to have to defeat military forces that could potentially harm people i mean this is this is a mission creep isn't it well first and foremost the professor is right our mission is to protect innocent lives the innocence of libya that is our core mission having said that certainly we're involved in regime change what you're seeing in our

coalition is not only to protect the innocent lives of libyans who are being persecuted by their own government and are a leader but our mission is to remove gadhafi either dead or alive let's face it that is with anybody that is in the ad this guy isn't a u.n. resolution though see this is what i'm getting is not the u.n. yeah but the u.n. report resolution is pretty vague and leaves it leaves it up to interpretation as to what exactly we are empowered to do with our allies and i can tell you this you've heard from our attorney general today in washington eric holder you heard for president several times that this guy must go and anybody's order that he didn't have business ok whose business is it to get rid of gadhafi sammy if i can go to you here because this is the you know going from the right to protect to regime change in the course of a few hours it looks like. well that's what i've always suspected i think the united states britons on prongs to control libya libyan oil

remember that throughout the middle east there are enormous evils and generally these up he votes are calling for democracy freedom and crucially for independence and democracy and independence goes contrary to u.s. interests in the region getting a controlling the region getting the cheap oil supporting israel and so on all proudly tease and i don't think protecting civilians is a priority at all as the facade that's the excuse that's being used to to wage yet another war remember what happened in iraq you think. the world a sammy do you think that we should remain and that he should be bombing his own people and committing atrocities as your own people is that would you know i don't think i'll let me show let me say sheriff i mean i had sammy going to let me finish you but you you interrupted me i'd interrupt you the gaddafi is

a ruthless dictator but it's for the libyan people to overthrow gadhafi just like it's for the egyptian people talk or to throw more barbaric for the bahraini people to overthrow their king bahrain is a small island about six hundred thousand barrel a nice they are being killed tortured nurses and doctors are getting arrested prevented from treating the injured it is the headquarters of the fifth fifth fleet of the united states is practically a us colony so we did time to move in our v.p. has stuff us support where is where is the protection of civilians in bahrain where is it to me a man this and this war on libya is not about gaddafi it's not about village b.m. people it's about controlling a very strategic country. rich. three that supplies the west supplies europe with very cheap oil they have reached agreement with the truth kate and two thousand and

four the united states britain france italy very happily pay to have been backing him to have even been arming them some of the planes bombing that were bombing people in libya where the french made some of the weapons he's using are worse than major so don't don't go right ahead don't talk to me about how about this is hypocritical of this abdullah jumping. no priest precisely this is the point they already have the oil there was so close he was receiving kentucky several almost two months ago so it isn't about oil because these bit was rehabilitated and it's part of the you know it's been pocketing his share of the oil and the oil has been flowing not only is a lower value of what people have risen his people have risen and these people are not controlled by the united states and the area united states is moving in with their with some european powers to provide millions of people all over the region

if these regal's even the rebels will be out of the ministry of the united states the end game is to divide libya and presumably that's a very good point gentlemen let me jump in here just point and i go to brad ok perhaps the interesting point it's been brought up here what if this current military operation however you want to call it isn't successful meenie khadafi isn't different isn't thrown out have we the west western powers partitioned libya is that is in the anyone's interest a partition or are they going to forever protect benghazi in other areas this is what i'm getting at is the law of unintended consequences i mean what if you can't get rid of gadhafi with planes alone. well look that's going to be right we don't know how this thing is going to play out what should we know what's going to play out before we go and no we how it should have no one out there is anybody how does anybody know how a war is going to turn out we hope that we i mean i know right decisions were put on the right you asset storage that towards that decision but look and nobody has

a crystal ball but one thing is for sure and that is khadafi must go he must go and we've already made that decision with our allies and now we've got to see it through we've made a mistake in in gulf war one one we freed kuwait we should have removed that dictator at that time it was our mistake shame on us we didn't do it so we had to wait a number of years to get the job done the second time but who the iraqi people are you are you the libyan people to be jumpin go ahead but it's me tell you why sammy tell you i shall i tell you why the united states both remove saddam and nine hundred ninety one because there was a massive upheaval in iraq an uprising and the uprising was to us as well as they would rather keep saddam done than have the iraqi people control iran send a strike on syria i covered his behavior in new zealand are you if you were on your side. we didn't eliminate the reason why we did a little eliminate saddam hussein in gulf war one is because we made

a deal with our coalition partners in order to maintain our coalition that we would remove the was removed saddam from kuwait i would be the end of our mission is helicopter gunships you're hot you're hot air cover over iraq there was that no fly zone in iraq but you are allowed to use this radical cleric gunship to gun the people down beat i don't hear rocky and i said and i know what i'm saying is about ok abdallah in cairo. in cairo go ahead before we go to the brain at thirty ok fact ok ok to two things first iraq ninety one i covered it all right i covered first the n.b.c. and then for the saudis and the uprising in kurdistan the last and in the. south in the shiite uprising the south was not anti american just the opposite right when george bush appears on the radio and said rise up the south in the north rose up the trouble is that we americans be traded that ground that uprising and we're paying the price for that and then why do we betray it i don't know the i'll tell

you why i don't know why i because we were counting on the generals themselves the iraqi general staff to overthrow sadam and that was the that we are dealing with adults because they are we here we were extraordinarily sure of sign shrike shore's deal with that with general general solid plan and its presence is largely around the main areas are apparently goes along go ahead samenow the newly formed article you are look at threaten incredible person in a horse course on go we can are assured scrub here is the deal with the generals allowing as saddam's trial right gentlemen let me jump in here we're going to go to a break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on libya state with dark me. steve.

the so. slim. lead.

welcome back to crossfire i'm peter lavelle remind you we're talking about the implementation of the u.n. resolution on libya. slim. but first let's see what russians think about this organization. with no debate and no objective another conflict has started immediately after the un resolution on libya was adopted the coalition started to implement it resolution nine hundred seventy three imposes a no fly zone over libya and measures to protect civilians from more modern forces and the same time there are those who see this as another military intervention of war the russian public opinion research center says that have to treat of citizens towards the un thirty eight percent said they have positive feelings and another

twenty nine percent feel negative towards their organization with this in mind russia staying from voting on the un security council resolution what will happen in libya remains open to question. ok but i'd like to ask you the first question here goes down to nation building country building hasn't the west had enough of that after iraq and after afghanistan because this looks like again the law of unintended consequences ok if the u.s. and it looks like the u.s. and its allies have chosen to support the rebels ok that's what it looks like ok who exactly these people are is not very clear to me or it seems to anybody else ok but so the u.s. and its allies are making a commitment to somehow rebuild the nation of libya haven't we learn from our past experiences go right ahead. we have to play the hand we're dealt and the hand that we're dealt is this we're seeing a complete meltdown of authoritarian rule in north africa and in the middle east

what is the united states paralyzed to sit back and let it occur when people are rising up and asking for help and atrocities are being made against their people by their own governments is that what america and our allies should do you know we need to stand with the people who are standing up against terror but we've got to help it happen and also and not fair is what we heard also on the program what about bahrain we're not talking about them we're not protecting their rights that we're helping with what about yemen you know america me to tell you that there are places in the world where people want to be free but it seems they go to a place like libya where there's all and i'm not the person that usually raises that issue or oil first or what do you think about that sami and soy in libya well it's how i see sami if i could go to you i mean going back to the nation building issue here i mean should the west be involved in this i think the road record is pretty poor to date. it's more like nation destruction than nation building they have destroyed iraq its entire infrastructure still produces less electricity than

. dictatorship sewage water is willing thrown into the water that's more that are there be more than a million more more than a million iraqis have been killed the iraqi state is not in serious course the world this is you're making out of your is actually if you go on you'll go and check you'll go i'm check that you rather have saddam and how we're going to check certainly would you rather have zero dollar our yes or no no no why saddam and kerry are looking all right gentlemen. we don't need it we have this very we did it we don't really need the our it isn't a better if saddam were in power of the it's our debts and our tired no one here in the us dollar that i do for you i would like to go to the high road gentlemen please yeah ok that was the state. building would be a sort of throw in the greater middle east when we see it i want to talk about is there how does this affect the democratic process that is awakening in the arab

world which i think i hope all of us are support ok and and i would say the libyans deserve just as much but i did sammy made a very interesting point is this nation building as a nation destroying go ahead a dollar ok let's let's talk about libya ok the spirit that animated the uprising in libya is the same spirit in egypt however in the same spirit in tunis the differences there ben ali. rep repressive busy was corrupt as he was is not mac and and will barak repressive busy years and corrupt as he was was not nag but in the case of what started as a justice it's not and also whereas peaceful demonstrations were then fired upon mercenaries were brought in from sub-saharan africa firing on the people and so the people took up arms now what i wish to answer sami is i wish we had a number of the interim government the provisional government in benghazi on this show. and he would say we have asked for these airstrikes because without these airstrikes you could talk all you want about iraq and nation building without these

airstrikes then ghazi right now would be the people benghazi right now would be massacred just look at the footage today and al-jazeera and you see dozens of little libyan army khadafi and tanks and armored cars heading to benghazi they were shelling benghazi and he promised he would he would be merciless so the point is the libyan uprising libya insurgents themselves have asked that was let me just one one of the point they have asked for incubated secondly how do you clarify this problem that the u.n. resolution is for protecting civilians and yet it's very clear that a number of us are cheering for the insurgency i certainly am i'm flying the old libyan flag now in my apartment and the way is the united states should recognize the provisional government like france did then the united states participates in the u.n. operation which is no fly but it deals with and recognize legitimate government and

it can supply them with ever they want arms ok are you trying to go back to georgia to missy's you later examine you said you want to jump in so go right ahead. yes because you see this is all very nice nicely as if it's a humanitarian mission i go back to my point which is that this is essentially the rest of the humanitarian mission and the days and weeks to come will show that the libyan people will pay a very heavy price not only for these crimes. but also for this western intervention this will escalate this situation it will bring more bloodshed that i've been less gluck shed and that is my point i to support and you have to send me you are an elitist b. and you are leading us let's begin to lash out at the park was what i would rather sit back and look innocent only very cold but i don't think you are all people if you want to look a look let me finish a spray finish my point if you are really serious about freedom and democracy go on

start with the places that you could throw but rain so would be a rabia yes man oh man jordan morocco egypt under mubarak you are you are being hypocritical here all of these ruthless think they should put an arm through that who is you who was telling her a journalist and and now you are moving and now you are moving in to destroy these countries even more to prevent their people waging their struggle themselves independence they want freedom they want your locality they want they don't want your bombers and tom arkham asylum all right i destroyed a country i did in france who had to go to brag now gentlemen i like to go to brad brad with hypothetical ok no one can predict the future how far should this intervention go in libya based on the resolution of the united nations and maybe they'll need a new one but we have no fly it's as we're speaking right now they're going to extend it most likely the u.s. is getting slightly back off and move passed on to nature we'll see if that happens

but i mean is there are you know given what you've said on this program is there a logical one point time to put boots on the ground. i think inevitably will have to be put on the ground if the mission is to be successful and as the removal of gadhafi now will be american boots hopefully not hopefully our allies and the arab league will pony up some troops so they're the first ones arabs are the first ones on the ground to free arabs we would love to see that here in america a more of a backward approach where america will will provide the technology but arab nations first and foremost will provide the boots on the ground in order to stabilize libya that would be the best case scenario is this guy is gone and arab troops come in provide a provisional government for the people of libya and we move on ok i'm jealous and we'd go with sami mentioned a whole litany of countries that the united states supports and the arab middle east that probably need a lot of reform i think we'd all agree with all those leaders are now all watching

this what initiatives they have now to reform because if you don't reform you're going to get struck by the u.s. and its allies you see the logic i'm going on this it has it could have a very counterproductive very how to produce i would put it. i would put it the other way i would put it the other way which is that every tyrant would be tyrant in the arab world it's good that he can get away with it can daffy can get away with massacring his people as serbia was master king the people of bosnia and almost got away with it if it weren't for intervention and that's why i find the discussion coming from sandy to be incredible i said it before i go to benghazi now they certainly were you guys right then you haven't i'm sort of the problem let's how did i let you know listen this isn't i don't know how the tsunamis are concerned they're all saying what is the. i'm saying here is a signal then it is it is critical what kind of more libyans if you richard. oh you're like they completely who are against you you are obsessed with iraq iraq

if we agree wholeheartedly and i know he was because they are holding their own america of course is a loser just because we're not talking about everywhere while you're on the pile of crimes in iraq and you are covering your girl narrative afghanistan as well just look at the pictures not going out of afghanistan for a day or a few our soldiers killing thousands of innocent gov guy i mean this is demagoguery it was sort of we're here to talk about libya you want to do a show next week about iraq fine but we're here to talk about libya and i don't care about intel we're doing the show about u.s. policy ok brad i do believe you when you're going to go you and i to go to you and watch in washington brad. what is it you think that the united states is trying to get on the right side of history here i'm not sure it's doing the right thing but i mean considering its long term backing of ben ali and we have mubarak and whatnot i

mean the united states is trying to find its footing here and how we should treat a very radically changing environment in north africa right now which again i think most of us would agree with it's the right trends here but is the u.s. overcompensating does that have a plan do you think. well hopefully this president has a plan he's but he's and his administration have been waffling and flip flopping the last few weeks as to what exactly our plan is there is no defined and game for the united states and libya and that's why i say this is mission creep when one side our government is telling us that this is a humanitarian effort and the other side is saying regime change but i'm telling you this is regime change and it is helping the people of libya we're going to end who knows that remains to be seen but one thing is for sure and that is this we have a coalition together it's not the united states and staying taking the front row for the first time the arab league has come and said an arab leader must go all reason all right you know in the passage i mean we've run out of time and i would

invite you all to come to the program next week to see what has happened in libya many thanks to my guests today in washington and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching his feet are to see you next time and remember prostitutes. a target here broadcasting live from washington d.c. coming up today on the big picture.