things they don't tell you about capitalism and that's going to do it for now for more on the stories we covered go to our web site r t dot com slash usa or are you tube page you tube dot com slash r.t. america and christine for sound. thanks i'm robin here broadcasting live from washington d.c. coming up today on the big picture.

used today is once again. these are the images the world has been seeing from the streets of kandahar. can. follow in a welcome across town peter lavelle decision time what endgame looms for the conflict in libya what are the ultimate aims of the u.s. and its allies what is best for people on the ground in libya and are we dealing with a shovel who. can. discuss

the cut off points of the coalition effort in libya i'm joined by horace campbell in syracuse he's a professor of african-american studies and political science at syracuse university in london we go to justin crump he is the c.e.o. it's a building an international risk assessment company and in new york we have eight greenwald he is the associate editor of commentary and another member of our crosstalk team yelling the hunger all right gentlemen this is prostate that means you can jump in anytime you want just if i can go to you first as we sit down at this virtual table right now nato still hasn't decided how this effort in libya is going to proceed that means the americans are still kind of left hanging in the lead right now even though we're told that the americans want to back away turkey seems to be very resistant to extending the mandate and the british are saying that the air campaign in libya is successful meaning the libyans can libyan government can no longer really cannot at all control its airspace so in a sense the policy here is one if we look at the one hour if we look at the

resolution that the united nations security council passed so where do we go from here because in a strange way there is success but i guess it's not successful for some members of this coalition if there isn't regime change. i think we've got a very good point the military campaign was always going to be leading in a way certainly in terms of a no fly zone. defenses were pretty poor twenty five years ago when they faced the americans in eldorado canyon. so much so that in fact a russian general visit off to his to inspect one performance has been so bad there not been upgraded since so to be honest the strategic air defense out into the mediterranean off the coast of libya was never going to be a significant problem for allied air forces and certainly the air force in a very old aircraft cold war era across the most part already suffering from a lot of bases from a lot of spares not going to be a problem the problems are always going to be in the alliance itself and the unity

of effort. even between britain and france i think you've seen some of that with the french launching you know actual strikes almost before everyone got started so in a paris conference a week ago so when you put all that together you can see some of the major trouble is behind the scenes and the most controversial thing of all being the attack on ground targets. actually very very hard to do without causing casualties collaterally even with people on the ground without people on the ground incredibly difficult to try and accurately target coffee's forces in urban areas in amongst the rebels using the same equipment so i mean that's going to the really big challenge and opposition so force the strategic easy campaign against big military targets it's only going to get more controversial horace is is this just going down the path of just a full blown military intervention the invasion of libya with use of ground forces this is part of the game plan all along because just the pointed out the

obvious because its. interpretation is that beating them the libyan air force was never going to be a big problem for the united states and its nato allies the real feeling want to do is change the regime in there in that will happen with an invasion a ground invasion of eventually. and that is not the or. that was not the a mandate and we must call on all members of the security council to go back to the secretary-general to ensure that need to withdraw from libya the military objectives need these objectives are not aligned to the political objectives of the transitional national council. or put in the room for western involvement in africa by. is new stalk and its act to massacre as a people ok if i can go to aid. a but i to ask you look at this resolution that was passed by the united nations security council and it's open

ended so where we are the united nations security what i'm saying is the people that are implementing it right now the united states and and primarily nato countries they can say there's no there's no deadline for us to achieve what we want to achieve so i mean at this point the united states and nato are not satisfied with the outcome because it is we speak right now and things are changing very quickly in the country there's a stalemate right now i wouldn't call quite a stalemate but i put worst we're certainly i haven't heard quite the triumphal language that you quoted at the beginning my understanding is is that commanders are speaking positively saying things are moving in the right direction certainly degraded could offer these defenses tremendously but that that that fulfilling the mission is really some some days or even weeks away in general i'm

sort of a fan of ok believe can i ask you what is the success what is success in your mind in this campaign what is success. successful to getting gadhafi toppling that regime if we if we were to simply. whole hold off a massacre this this go round which which we are doing and which which the u.s. and its allies should should be commended for. what's what's what's to stop the next massacre and what's to stop gadhafi is retaliate ok justin if i can go to you i mean if we said we seize education of the military infrastructure of libya then what is the rationale to continue the the military campaign i mean they're taking out so many tanks that so many trucks ports ability act why that has something to do with the no fly zone i don't understand i mean you continue to go after the infrastructure i mean then there cannot be another so-called massacre can there

well i don't know very well could be in fact. you know as you just referred to the ambiguity over the mission itself and certainly you know very clearly i think you know u.s. british foreign policy objectives would be to remove the duffy's regime u.n. security council resolution one hundred seventy three fall short of that clearly but it does have the mandate in the open ended mandate to protect civilians and so that's what much of this comes down to and that's what opens the door for this debate about the end state and all the controversy flowing from that but frankly i think if we look at previous no fly zones the remarkably ineffective. fly zone of those near chiefs compared to be a little no fly zone over iraq did have better achievements but look at the length of time that these operations went on for and again the air force wasn't really causing the damage the rebels it was it was symbolic you know i think it was important to the rebels that this was gone and they got this sort of level of support the arab league back that up the fact that the u.n. resolution went beyond that and you can open up the ground component is is going up

troubling aspect and i really think that you know again you can bomb the infrastructure you can cause it just to go problems but you know it does pose the disco problems of its own because the length of space if you like between the various major cities and major fighting that's been happening in urban areas. but nonetheless i think that after his forces in misrata back on the offensive tanks on the street snipers are in the buildings and it's very hard for me to see what tactical air power is going to actually deliver against that in an urban environment you know with many civilians around without creating at least the impression of an ngo if not in fact causing casualties among civilians amongst the rebels and selves so this is this is the really awkward aspect for me is you know where it goes how you actually deliver on that without making the controversy an objection that exists already worsens you know horace i mean just in really pointed out some very important points here i mean no matter how you cut it this is a slippery slope isn't it it's a slippery slope and if you want you can be

a cynic and say yes no fly zones really don't work you have to go to the next step in maybe this was the rationale behind it in the first place. no no let's not use the word awkward let's be very clear britain france and russia were opportunistic in going into libya when they were the same persons selling arms to libya russia china and india have the key to their responsibility in the security council by giving susan rice that leeway to use very loose land which to get into libya we need to say very clearly that the united states britain and france must be seized from any further military involvement in libya and that it is not their rule to cut out regime change in fact what this would be doing is oculus strengthening the credibility of daffy to present himself as the peerless the transitional national council of libya must mobilize the people of libya to remove gadhafi it is the roar

of the game libyans and africans to remove gadhafi not the western europeans who got out the over the past forty one years horace brings up an interesting point i mean the countries of the i mean there is the international opinion is is it's closing in on this i mean russia china and other countries have said here enough is enough i mean that you're bombing campaign has achieved enough i mean it's what the u.n. resolution asked for it's not going further because there is a it is a perception in the world going now this is turning into exclusively the american nato operation. well that's that's often the way these things go because let's be honest russia and china are certainly against. the assisted toppling of dictatorial regimes for their own reasons. as far as i'm concerned mr putin should be ashamed of himself for for calling the

u.s. forces crusaders while they're over there helping the libyan rebels be able to say see i made a lot of people would say that he echoes the opinion of rosa spaniards and the receipt he would be actually isn't reflecting the opinion of so many billions of people in the world i mean again you see the west make a determining political outcomes in other countries in this is the perception of it here there's a there's a lot of people that have this law they've been i want to be transmitted go right ahead syracuse the general of the junk from syracuse presumes to know what the libyan rebels should be doing while the libyan rebels themselves are the ones that have asked for western assistance in this. or a soup or stew in really quite a very real quick before we go to the brink. yet at the point is you can only buy and persons in countries to invite foreign troops and the very arab league that

invited the west to enter into libya out of very same arab governments that are repressing that pantries in bahrain in countries such as algeria and such as morocco in saudi arabia so that our hearts are going to jump in here and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the bus action in libya state party. super bowl for the. sixteen years after me and first flight the flames and speed sprays original like brand new rockets needed new launch sites private companies

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welcome. to remind you we're talking about events unfolding in libya. but first let's see what russians think about events in the region. the arab world . and the rest started in tunisia and egypt players across the region making a prognosis now is far from being easy since the arab world is changing its face every day and people in the streets show their power the russian public opinion

research center asked citizens what drives these people fortify percent think it's a low level of living standards fourteen percent say it's long term rulers thirteen percent blame verity and eight percent corruption claiming that people in the arab world. transformation and today change is the norm. ok justin and i to go back to you in london oh a lot of people around the world are saying that what was happening in libya is a civil war and why is the west choosing this civil war to intervene when there are other civil conflicts around the world and the obvious answer a lot of people would say a cynical one maybe it's always because there's a lot of other things going on the world the united united states and its allies don't intervene on but they do on this one and i'd like to point out there wasn't a whole lot of public discussion about it it happened very very quickly and you even have members of the u.s.

congress saying barack obama had no right to do that was no public discussion political discussion in the united states so for a country that likes to export democracy it wasn't very democratic process in the united states go ahead. sort of the aspect of the united states went to my more informed american brethren i think a lot of it depends around how you define war and conflict as to when congress can get involved. the key thing i really libya. i think the expectations were very high following on egypt continues here that libyan regime is going to be gone as well and we're going to see more of this arab spring. so there's a lot of focus on that and i think the recent investment went into libya which i don't just mean the financial investment all the corporate investment but actually some of the political investment that was into libya as a rube state in from the cold you know seen as suddenly on side no longer sponsoring terrorism made it more important and i actually think the scale events there is different to what we've seen in the rest the middle east perhaps up until

the last few days with events in yemen and syria which are changing i mean bahrain is not on the same scale there is not a mass armed uprising and open effective as we say civil war almost. on the scale there is in libya so that's why there has been so much focus on it you know just given all that emphasis and i think not to be seen as a failure and hence far more interest and also of course libya isn't on that sectarian fault line something other countries are where they sit between the sunni and the sheer divide which is you know the other major issue really and actually much harder to get involved in. a much more danger potentially more of a court martial in libya many ways was the easiest place to intervene and well that's that's kind of pathetic in a way if it's the easiest one to topple if i can go to you it looks it's clear that the international alliance led by the united states and nato have chosen sides in this conflict if you call it a civil war and not one of the things that's troubling is that if we do continue

seeing this deadlock or the stalemate if you agree with that term or not is that is the international community chosen to develop to recognize a new state inside of livio that the state has been gars the or something like that i mean if there are unintended consequences being played out here be carpetbaggers be the intent then you have to protect these people and is that the responsibility of the international community like another cost of all. right now with that's exactly why i'm i'm in favor for a for toppling the regime for a more pronounced end game here we cannot have an open ended protecting operation where where where we're flying over over of a bisected country indefinitely so that and i think it is the i think it is the obligation of free countries to to choose sides in these things and to choose the interest to choose the side for democracy against tyranny against despotism and and

as to the question of why libya and not elsewhere. it's a good one and and if we perhaps should be thinking about how we can shape these rivalries elsewhere whether through military means or not ok or supporting if i give him credit forces i can go around if i could say with nutrients if i could stay with us i mean isn't the track record of the west over the last decade particularly of nation building in the world expression in the greater middle east of the arab world pretty dismal. no not at all i think if you it's certainly it's certainly not spotless and it's a massive undertaking and it's been it's been done very imperfectly but that's not the same thing as saying it's dismal if you look at the region look to iraq where you see the sort of the only fledgling arab parliamentary democracy that's

that's that's kind of struggling along and i think more u.s. involvement there will help it on its way ok horrid what do you think about that i mean. the united states is falling apart here but at the same time the united states is going around the world building countries i mean a lot of americans would like the american government to start rebuilding its own country you go ahead i mean nation building in the greater middle east outside intervention i mean we learned a lesson i must i must speak as someone from inside the peace movement. the united nations did not give need to a man be to change regimes in libya is a revolution going on in north africa and the middle east these revolutions are to overthrow the teeters who have been supported by the west for the past forty years these revolutions must be made by the people of north africa if we're going to have

a democratization process social justice and the billions of dollars used to provide employment for the people of north africa the united states cannot afford a military adventure in north africa as did did in iraq in fact the opportunism of the pentagon is such that initially there are calls to no fly zone but now they're using this exercise as a public relations exercise for the united states africa comma that africa rejects so is it that the west is attempting to establish a military base in libya to start the revolution in tunisia and egypt in the back let's be very clear that the west is not in support of democracy in africa they are not in support of democracy in yemen in bahrain in saudi arabia it is the west that is supporting one that most arcade governments in the world in saudi arabia so for the west we live in the united states of america when we are cutting back money for

teachers for education for schools for health for housing for environment we cannot spend a billion dollars on tom hartman says against libya it is up to the people of africa and it is amazing that in this discussion we have not discussed the role of the african union the united nations security council should be giving assistance to the african union for humanitarian assistance to libya that was the mandate of the security council of the united nations france and britain were in bed. with a good laugh it off the son finance succors his campy sour cause he is no in the lead to fight against this is a pork receipt of the highest order africans and this is a very. good reason to allow humanitarian disaster to take place go ahead a little has to go i had a very there's no there's no getting around the fact that the libyan rebels asked for our help that's plain and simple or if you want to reply that yes

i agree that the libyan insurrection forces ask for your help but we can also assist the libyan insurrection forces to say to them that it is very pass through move by the f.a.a. if they asked the west to come in to remove gadhafi for them then they would be puppets of the west when the well justin if i can go to you i mean i guess that's asking people to make a choice on the ground here i mean even i and i'm very very skeptical about this whole operation is you guys all can tell me i can understand rebels saying look i mean we're going to get massacred in the next forty eight seventy two hours can you stop that from happening and haven't we already done that isn't really the job according to the resolution been achieved and i think that's where the discussion is where we go next year. because the resolution isn't talk about any international force politically socially militarily supporting the insurrection in libya the

resolution doesn't say that that's a good point i think it's an important distinction all the talk in strategic space in the media space in the political space has been about this you know the intent for regime change has been stated. but actually if you look at the military operation is completely compliant with the u.n. security council resolution if you look at the reaction of the rebels on the ground to the sound of fifteen the way they reacted to the crew and the fact they were still celebrating a guy whose child was very seriously injured and he was injured as well and then fortunate so friendly fire x. and afterwards even they were actually still said you know we're supporting the americans they've come to help us so there is no getting away from the fact that what they want is and actually what's being delivered on the ground at the moment appears to be broadly in line the rebels need rebels one there's no evidence filling casualties i do suspect there will be some i think the inherent difficulties of checking around large amounts of explosives are such that they will be problems especially in

a less than intelligence. but not solely to one side i think. the level of the paper around the rest of these issues is very interesting i have to disagree about . the reasons. brought up just now about the whole issue of us being that. the rebels really did us this it is compliant and that's a really important point ok you want to jump in there probably the last comment of the program here i mean. is there any limits to support of the toppling of the regime in libya is very limited in your mind we just put boots on the ground i mean we do everything we can to get rid of gadhafi right and have force regime change go back to the old strategy. of the of course there are limits but we're nowhere near there yet it's very hard to topple a regime just using air power. so we were going to have to start to think of novel uses of american power projection in order to make this happen but yes there is

there is there is a limit we this is not worth a nother iraq that that that is that i'll concede that for sure but it would it need not escalate to that point all right gentlemen we've run out of time i'm going to have to jump in many thanks to my guests today in syracuse in london and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember crosstalk means.

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