moves to. destroy. already killed nearly one hundred civilians.

libya last week. a whole series of. nuclear. debate. today he and his guests will debate the difference between. a western geo political interests. q.

hello and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle libya within the great arab awakening a one off detour for the maintenance of western military and political intervention in the arab world when it comes to libya and the arab world what is the difference between humanitarian aid and western geopolitical interests. and you can. discuss libya and the great arab awakening i'm joined by islam qassam in the hague he is a strategic analyst at the hague center for strategic studies in cairo we cross the editing should go fish or he is a visiting distinguished lecturer at the american university in cairo and in san francisco we have eric harris he is the founder and managing editor of antiwar dot com all right gentlemen this is cross talk you all have different points of view and i want my viewers to see them ok eric if i can go to you and kind of maybe

change the direction of discourse at least from western media and looking at libya and what is going in the in the arab world i mean let's take it back a few months we have tunisia we have egypt ok then we have the crackdown in bahrain we have so to arabia suddenly disappears more or less from western media it is essentially invaded another country and shut off the protest movement there and now we have libya and mr gadhafi well a very colorful figure i can look at all of our ages here and we know him quite well he's been brought into the cold and now he's back in the deep freeze here but mr gadhafi the new hitler of the region if i can use that term he's become very convenient for a lot of interest number one slow down the the reform movement the democratic reform movement in the arab world we have again western intervention in a muslim country and we have dictatorships that are saying who had good that the military is back to to create order where there is chaos and you know libya is the

epicenter what do you think of that narrative am i being too extreme. no i don't think so at all i think that one of the reasons that obama has gone into libya is to distract people from the fact that the united states supports most of these dictators and certainly we don't want to have any sort of comparison with bahrain where we are supporting the government against the protesters and i mean in the military and intervention in libya here i mean there was no public debate at least in the united states very little in europe i mean i can remember all of many of the the wars all twenty three of the military interventions and wars since the collapse of the soviet union and this one there was no debate in the united states whatsoever we just woke up he said one morning and we have another military operation in the in the in the arab world i mean so they really can't even circus circumvented what bush did bush started from scratch drummed up

a war and this time there was not even a media debate about it. that's right this is really unprecedented obama has built upon the usurpations of previous presidents and gone into libya without any approval from congress without any consultation really from congress and when he was running for president in two thousand and seven he said that the president has no right to go into another country unless they are threatening an immediate attack on us without consulting and getting the approval of congress ok islam in the hague if i could go to you who are these rebels in libya because the deeper i look into this because we have called the democratic opposition i don't know why they're called democratic we don't know much about their credentials except for their former loyalists to khadafi and some dissidents and then there's some people out

there that are saying that a great number of the people from. in the in iraq coalition forces a good number of them are libyans coming from eastern libya and they were working with kind of i mean those are not very good credentials for democrats democrats and reformers is it. well we know something about the opposition we know that some of them are judges some of them are teachers some of them are businessmen some of whom are defected generals from the. army so we know something about them but what we also know that they want to they want to get rid of qaddafi they want to have a different type of political regime in libya and their demands are legitimate ok well if i can islam if i can stay with you i mean so would you throw in the democratic term democratic because you just mentioned a lot of people that want to get rid of gadhafi ok fair enough i mean getting rid of gadhafi you say on many people's agenda here but is that in the name of

democracy or is it just a land grab opportunist or oil realignment eccentric setter i mean again you know the labels thrown out there a lot but is there any substance to it well these are two different issues the first issue is this intervention about land to grab an oil and other other european or western interests is the intervention in itself legitimate or not so that's one issue the second issue is what's going to happen after. this is what indeed will. so these are two different issues the first the first issue i think we have to remember what was happening in libya just three or two three days ago a definite forces were on the doors of benghazi had the intervention did not take place benghazi would be completely taken over by. guys who would have been taken completely over by qaddafi so that's the first issue the second issue is what is going to happen after we do hope and we are thinking and we are planning for we

were talking about a democratic transition you're right we don't know but this is this is at least the hope of the of the opposition this is the hope of the rest of the international community as we've been in cairo if i can go to you with me on west. intervention here and again as we're sitting at this virtual table there are still different interpretations of what who's doing why did what the united states is doing with its coalition partners what nato is doing what i'm not sure of ministers are close even knows what he wants to do because he keeps changing his tune here but the very fact that there's a military intervention still again in an arab country from western forces outside particular united states is that going to taint any put to any political outcome that is a result of this and i'm obviously i'm talking about the post khadafi period whenever that happens to happen. yes i think libya is actually a testing ground in the middle east now for the how to deal with the protest

movements that started in tunisia earlier this year we have seen as you said in the introduction we have seen tunisia and egypt going in a certain direction where the military basically refused to use their military power in order to crush the protest movement in libya we see the opposite model where the lot of the ruler is sticks to his guns literally and use them against their population now if this works if the manager is to overcome the opposition and to crush them using the army and to reestablish his tight grip on libya this will send a very clear signal to the others in the region who are watching very closely you can see in yemen already one cuz if you started to use force the yemeni president shifted tactics and then you see behind me in which in my view cannot be understood without lots happening in libya so what is happening there of course it's about libya but it's also about the future of this protest movement in the region and

this what makes it more important and this what makes it touches on the interest of the united states and europe and all those players who have interest in a stable more or less democratic middle east ok eric i mean when i look at the resolution one nine seven three i do i've read it over and over again i don't see where the the the resolution the people that will enforce the resolution have the right to align themselves with anyone in libya but that has happened from the get go we see we see people from this opposition group the rebels working very closely with nato forces and that is not part of the resolution and what i'm getting at is this set a very dangerous precedent because the united states and its allies can go after countries and leaders that doesn't like but it can be silent if they can be bahrain is a very good example don't talk about saudi arabia again this is just another means for and i'm thinking about this transition that we're seeing in north africa the west wants to grab it in control it all over again it really is afraid of democracy

in north africa. that's right the united states is not interested in democracy in the middle east or north africa unless it suits their purposes as admiral mullen said a few days ago the big difference between libya and bahrain is that libya is an enemy and bahrain is an ally we don't have any consistent principles when it comes to intervention or the united states doesn't islam what do you think about that no principles. yeah i disagree with this is statement i think this is not really united states this is about libya. so what we have here is i agree with you totally agree. and the issue here is that you have the libyan opposition is asking for intervention. if you want to point out that the situation is very different well i mean there's lots of people asking for intervention i mean just because some group

asks the u.s. to intervene doesn't mean that we should do it and in fact the united states has such a bad record of military intervention over the last fifty years i think we should just stay out of all of these countries this is crazy with no you know we have and left me to determine their own future is what we want to replace this is all right and i'm sorry to see you know and jump in go ahead in cairo go ahead jump in and i'm just saying i want you know i hate to intervene in in the debate about the american position and the administration and its critics if we bring the region's perspective here yes we would agree that intervention especially by western states in any arab or muslim country is not something that would be welcomed here but look at this it would have been much better if the international community is a region and the others intervened earlier on when political interventions could have been effective probably more effective and less costly in human life and in

material destruction than this but they did it nobody did it and you know bad as you know it is with aids eric jump in go ahead go ahead go out there and it would have been better if the united states had stayed out of this to begin with we're the ones that have been propping up these leaders we have given millions of dollars to moammar gadhafi over the last. seconds you know with the fed does that mean we cannot to start doing the right thing. and i'm going to do the same thing. well you round we beat up on his side and then we beat on the heels of that not but now we have the opportunity to do something very different and this is not about western intervention this is united states. but this is not about day united states you've got ten members of the security of color you can who are already. here we're going to continue this discussion after a short break and after that story we'll continue talking about libya in the greater middle east

a part. there is not enough space for them on the ground. down to. get things nonexistent under the sun. through the gap of adrenaline. discover deeply hidden secrets. they are seeking.

and even. talking to god. from. under the ground. download the official antti uplink ation to i phone or i pod touch from the i.q. saps to. watch on t.v. life on the go. see video on demand on t.v.'s minefield costs and r s s feeds now in the palm of your. question on the t.v. dot com. and you can see. the welcome in your arsenal concrete about to remind you we're discussing libya's future.

ok eric i'd like to talk about the logic of humanitarian assistance and military intervention what about the ivory coast what about the sudan over the last decade or so what about bahrain to today why are. why isn't there just a huge storm you know let's go protect these poor people they've been rising up for our freedoms looking for help lead pleading for help and no one helps them militarily no one intervenes for them but when we have a group of unknown people and i'm sorry i'm not going to let these rebels off in libya until we know we are who they are i mean you had the mujahideen you had cos of oh you had you know because these were not nice people and we knew we knew it at the time and we knew it after the fact so and kind of what you're saying jumping in way too quick before we know what's going on so humanitarian aid is only useful when it has a geo political interest and my being too cynical no and humanitarian to even use

the term humanitarian aid when you're talking about bombs is ridiculous this is not like we're sending them food or or some kind of real aid we are killing people and we're killing people on both sides we're killing libyan government troops who are defending their own country i mean they're doing what they pledged to do and we have no right to be going in there now but to answer you're a defender g.m. this is not what they're paid to this is not their mission the military option although many have already told me i'm already able to grab a letter and you know why do you i mean who are who is the united states go ahead erick finish your what they finish you want military and should stay in. the military the u.s. military should stay out of all of these countries and the fact that you're not in there means not you know much more you know your situation is why should the ivory coast. this is why are we in the ivory lot of they are having

a liaison where you just ban islam you go you go first go first at the hague go ahead the question is the question is ask yourself three days ago why would you like to see gadhafi forces taken over benghazi can you just think about the the coming of the consequences of the. i don't know what do you think how it goes if you're taken over by i think i know these are it inflates has no business the united states has no business trying to tell the libyan people or the people in other countries of that region how they should conduct their affairs and the united states has a one hundred percent sailing record of intervention we go in there and we mass everything up and that's exactly what we're going to do now and we'll go live to the revolution only as news you need to grow where you are going to hand off to me you know we kind of we don't have remains. we're in cairo.

yes all right now eric again i think the principle you're defending is perfectly sound but i'm a little bit worried about the self-righteousness of the principle when you apply it then it turns into a disaster yes the united states has no business intervening in the middle east but the fact is since nine hundred forty five the united states is in the middle east it is there every day it's. all there is doing is trying to fix the problems that they create and if you want to boil it out if you want to pull very. out all my hands i want you out of the united states and foreign aid to israel and we're out of the middle lane now from the oil business first pull it out from the oil business first and let me see how this goes but there's the united states is going to remain engaged defacto in the region and then it cannot be negates its other responsibilities you can't just have business with. you but eric and they are real

tears as they are to build the city of the house of troops should not be in there trying to defend us only also just the business so. there's a very good point is not going to go not be there we should not it is going to the hague that's a very interesting point that air france there. you know it's again brings up a good point to the gentleman listen up ok i mean if i do. go to the second let me kind of redefine the question arose gentlemen place eric said you know the united states should get out of the region ok eric if you don't mind i'll refine that a little bit maybe the united states it will save the region because it has been their business interest trade interests but the united states should be determining political outcomes islam do you agree with that statement i'm talking about the us know if oil oil is not a well developed terry we should not be defending the oil prices you are saying this or any other what is the idea in the middle east here i don't know that you

know the military is going to go away should be abolished islam but i am actually i have got to you've got the floor go ahead sir i'd like to make two points first of all the oil business libya is not libya produces less than two percent of the world output so this is one thing this is really not about oil specially when we're talking about the united states had this conversation been about saudi arabia maybe the conversation would be different their interests here is really not the u.s. of course it would be about the united states would be to that let me. finish please this is about if we're speaking about interest then we must speak about european countries and their interests not the united states the focus here on the united states i think is a bit misleading first of all france and the u.k. took the lead on libya not the u.s. u.s. it still does this moment why has it and in fact that involved obama wants to hand

it all but as a quick just read the paper i just read the press so this is really not an american war with. the united states military you know you know like a well known internationally and we know a deferential and a british where the leader is behind this operation not obama. not go bomb administration so what i see here is madness friends with the rebels i think you have to stay out of order as if i got a right to know what you have is a i want to go to i want to go to the i want to get this is a bull in the ok all right eric finish your point there's really no it's not going what i want to see a shop the u.s. ok the u.s. is a bull in a china shop you do not ask the ball to fix things you get him out of the china shop before you try and fix things as it is and if i go to you in cairo let's try to square the circle here because i don't think we can here we've had president obama coming out hillary clinton we've had european leaders cameron we have had

a cozy talking about freedom democracy all those nice things that we all like to hear about and we think about ourselves ok but how do you square that with military intervention by arming people can you bring all these wonderful ideas through the through the tube bombing people killing innocent civilians create creating political facts on the ground you with military use can you bring the two together . unfortunately yes you can bring the two together it's a sad situation as i said it's a policy that is far from being an idea the idea it would have been a much earlier intervention politically to prevent because if you from using his military to crush the civilians but now this is where we are you have a ruler who supported the war supported an all army to by the western states who is using those armaments and using this technical military know how in order to kill civilians this is what he's doing so the intervention now is in order to protect

the civilians it is not in order to assessed to assist bad as the. rabbit always trying to say we think everyone has the right only i would like to add i would like to add a few more things to this now the military intervention is necessary at this point to at this point in time but also we need to think about the. situation we need to be thinking about. the type of planning the type of organization that needs to take place the biggest mistake that only about worry i hear out of already planning libyan government ruction we did not have a development of plans in place so in the case of libya what needs to be taken place at this moment at the time that we are engaged in military intervention is also a second track in which the then you for construction for a transition to democracy for economic development is also taken place ok. and

where you can do it kerry as i am i going to niger that woman i'm sorry eric i'm going to ask your question that's my question too i mean again we know the united states and its allies go into iraq ok and i think everyone even even the hardcore neo cons at least admit today well we didn't have the endgame figured out too well ok and there was no public debate about libya whatsoever i mean is anybody have a clue about what the end game is going to be about because most people don't even have a clue. what we're doing right now is that if i go to you in cairo go ahead yes very quickly iraq is completely difference in the case of iraq the united states unilaterally decided to go into a country and change their g.m. they're against the advice of everyone in the region especially its own allies and also in europe so that's without a u.n. without a u.n. resolution and so on that was a total fiasco from day one until today that's a completely different operation with really more of our lives you have to better understand. say that again erica had the more the more

bullies you get involved the more you can rationalize it because no one has to take responsibility you know exactly the opposite when the intervention is done by a group of states who are responding to calls for intervention that is driven by the protection of what they are handing at least they are developing as around. ok as i want to ask you i mean if they are i don't i was out of town and you know men are and how i want everybody to answer the next question what is the fate of the democratic great democratic experiment that started in north africa islam i ask you because the west had some beautiful words over the last few weeks now they're dropping bombs what's the future of democracy now. well i think there is a good hole for it i think what we need to do is three three things first make sure the rebels are adal position are well armed the second thing we need to do is to

make sure that. when is. sanctioned to make sure that he does not have the financial and the military capabilities to fight back and third one is. to make sure that the opposition have the necessary training and organization to help them transition to democracy. the situation the. time eric i'm going to give you the last ten seconds go i don't think you're going to see democracy in libya any time soon right now i sorry you know we have to jump in we've run out of time there's been a great discussion many thanks to my guest today in the hague cairo and in san francisco and thanks to our viewers for watching if you darkie see you next time and remember crosstalk.

it.