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a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune into cars report. more news today violence is once again flared up. these are the images the world is seeing from the streets of canada. shining corporations are today. look. can't. stand. alone and welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle libya within the great arab awakening a one off detour for the maintenance of western military and political intervention

in the arab world when it comes to libya and the arab world what is the difference between humanitarian aid and western geopolitical interests. to. discuss libya and the great arab awakening i'm joined by islam qassam in the hague he is a strategic analyst at the hague center for strategic studies in cairo we crossed the exiting sugar fisher he is a visiting distinguished lecturer at the american university in cairo and in san francisco we have eric harris he is the founder and managing editor of antiwar dot com all right gentlemen this is cross talk you all have different points of view and i want my viewers to see them ok eric if i can go to you and kind of maybe change the direction of discourse at least from western media and looking at libya and what is going in the in the arab world i mean it's taken back a few months we have tunisia we have egypt ok then we have the crackdown in bahrain

we have so the arabia suddenly disappears more or less from western media it is essentially invaded another country and shut off the protest movement there and now we have libya and mr gadhafi well a very colorful figure i can look at all of our ages here we know him quite well he's been brought into the cold and now he's back in the deep freeze here and mr gadhafi the new hitler of the region if i can use that term he's become very convenient for a lot of interests number one slow down the the reform movement the democratic reform movement in the arab world we have again western intervention in a muslim country and we have dictatorships that are saying well who had stood that the military is back to to create order where there is chaos and you know libya is the epicenter what do you think of that narrative of my being too extreme. no i don't think so at all i think that one of the reasons that obama has gone into libya is to distract people from the fact that the united states supports most of

these dictators and certainly we don't want to have any sort of comparison with bahrain where we are supporting the government against the protesters and i mean in the military intervention in libya here i mean there was no public debate at least in the united states very little in europe i mean i can remember all of many of the wars all twenty three of the military interventions in wars since the collapse of the soviet union and this one there was no debate in the united states whatsoever we just woke up he said one morning and we have another military operation in the in the in the arab world i mean so they really can't even surface circumvented what bush did bush started from scratch drummed up a war and this time there was not even a media debate about it. that's right this is really unprecedented obama has built upon the usurpations of previous presidents and gone into libya without

any approval from congress without any consultation really from congress and when he was running for president in two thousand and seven he said the president has no right to go into another country unless they are threatening an immediate attack on us without consulting and getting the approval of congress ok islam in the hague if i could go to you who are these rebels in libya because the deeper i look into this because we called the democratic opposition i don't know why they were called democratic we don't know much about their credentials except for their former loyalists who could davi and some dissidents and then there's some people out there that are saying the great number of the people from. in the in iraq that fatah and a coalition forces a good number of them were libyans coming from eastern libya and they were working with kind of i mean those are not very good credentials for democrats democrats and

reformers is it. well we know something about the opposition we know some of them are judges some of the marquee teachers some are one are businessmen so we are defected generals from the. army so we know something about them but what we also know is that they want to they want to get rid of qaddafi they want to have a different political regime in libya and their demands are legitimate ok oh if i can islam if i can stay with you i mean so would you throw in the democratic determined democratic because you just mentioned a lot of people don't want to get rid of gadhafi ok fair enough i mean getting rid of gadhafi you say on many people's agenda here but is that in the name of democracy or is it just a land grab opportunist or oil realignment eccentric fetter i mean again you know the labels thrown out there a lot but is there any substance to. well these are two different issues the first issue is his intervention about. other european

or western interest is the intervention itself legitimate or not so that's one issue the second issue is what's going to happen after. this is what and will happen so these are two different issues the first the first issue i think we have to remember what was happening in libya just three or two three days ago the death of forces where on the doors open ghazi had the intervention did not take place. benghazi it would be completely taken over by. god it would have been thinking completely over. so that's the first issue the second issue is what is going to happen after that we do hope and we are thinking and we are planning for we were talking about democratic transition you're right we don't know but this is this is at least the hope of the of the opposition this is the hope of the rest of the

international community it's been in cairo if i can go to you with me on western intervention here and again as we're sitting at his virtual table there's still different interpretations of what who's doing what you've got the united states is doing with its coalition partners what nato is doing i'm not sure if ministers are close even knows what he wants to do because he keeps changing his tune here but the very fact that there's a military intervention still again in an arab country from western forces outside particularly united states is that going to take any any political outcome that is a result of this and i'm obviously i'm talking about the post khadafi period whenever that happens to happen. yes i think libya is actually a testing ground in the middle east and now for the how to deal with the protest movements that started in tunisia earlier this year we have seen as you said in the introduction we have seen tunisia and egypt going in a certain direction where the military basically refuse to use their military power

in order to crush the protest movement in libya we see the opposite model where the lot of the ruler and sticks to his guns literally and use them against their population now if this works because their fee managers will overcome and the opposition and to crush them using the army and to reestablish his grip on libya this will send a very clear signal to the others in the region who are watching very closely you can see in yemen already one cause there he started to use force the yemeni president shifted tactics and then you see behind me in which in my view cannot be understood without parts happening in libya so what is happening there of course it's about libya but it's also about the future of this protest movement in the region and this what makes it more important and this what makes it touches on the interest of the united states and europe and all those players who have interest in a stable more or less democratic middle east ok eric i mean when i look at the

resolution one nine seven three i do i've read it over and over again i don't see where the the the resolution the people that will enforce a resolution have the right to align themselves with anyone in libya but that is happen from the get go we see we see people from this opposition group the rebels working very closely with nato forces and that is not part of the resolution and what i'm getting at is this set a very dangerous precedent because the united states and its allies can go after countries and leaders it doesn't like but he could be silent as he can be bahrain is a very good example don't talk about saudi arabia again this is just another means for and i'm thinking about this transition that we're seeing in north africa the west wants to grab it in control it all over again it really is afraid of democracy in north africa. that's right the united states is not interested in democracy in the middle east or north africa unless it suits their purposes as admiral mullen

said a few days ago the big difference between libya and bahrain is that libya is an enemy and bahrain is an ally we don't have any consistent principles when it comes to intervention of the united states there isn't this one what do you think about that no principles. i disagree with this is a statement i think this is not really about the united states this is about libya . so what we have here is i agree with you it's only a green and the issue here is that you have the libyan opposition is asking for intervention. if you want to imply that the situation is very different well i mean there's lots of people asking for intervention i mean just because some group asks us to intervene doesn't mean that we should do it and in fact the united states has such a bad record of military intervention over the last fifty years i think we should just stay out of all of these countries but this is trade with all you know we have

and let me i'm determine their own futures. is love you want to reply to this is all right and i'm sorry and senile and jumping ahead in cairo i have been and i'm just saying i want you know i hate to intervene in in the debate about the american position and the administration and its critics if we bring the region's perspective here yes we would agree that intervention especially by western states in any arab or muslim country is not something that would be welcomed here but look at this it could have been much better if the international community that egypt and the others intervened earlier on when political interventions could have been in fact they're probably more effective and less costly in human lives and in material destruction than this but they did it nobody did and you know better than ever that you know it is when bates eric jump in go ahead go ahead go out there it would have been better if the united states had stayed out of this to begin with

we're the ones that have been propping up these leaders we have given millions of dollars to moammar gadhafi the last than the usa has yet to send us does that mean we cannot start doing the right thing how it's going to pull some ten thousand he's not around we beat up on his side and then we beat on the way out of that now but now we have the opportunity to do something very different and this is not about western intervention this is going to inflict a people united. but this is not about a day in the distance you've got ten members of the security call you can trust you john kerry or will you continue this discussion after a short break and after that story we'll continue talking about libya in the greater middle east a thirty. story .

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if you. still. want to. welcome your stuff i'm curious about to remind you we're discussing libya's future. stars. ok eric i'd like to talk about the logic of humanitarian assistance and military intervention what about the ivory coast what about the sudan over the last decade or so what about bahrain today why aren't why isn't there just a huge storm you know wisco protect these poor people they've been rising up for our freedoms looking for help lead pleading for help and no one helps them militarily no one intervenes for them but when we have

a group of unknown people i'm sorry i'm not going to let these rebels off in libya until we know who we are who they are i mean you had the mujahideen you had costs of oh you had you know ok all of these were not nice people and we knew he knew it at the time and we knew it after the fact so and kind of what you're saying jumping in way too quick before we know what's going on so humanitarian aid is only useful when it has a geopolitical interest am i being too cynical no and humanitarian thievin use the term humanitarian aid when you're talking about bombs is ridiculous this is not like we're sending them food or or some kind of real aid we are killing people and we're killing people on both sides we're killing libyan government troops who are defending their own country i mean they are doing what they pledged to do and we have no right to aim to not only when they are now but it but it can secure a defender jeem this is not what they're paid to this is not their mission their military

a lot of money and many have already told me i'm already able to read the letter and help why does not mean it's always the united states go ahead and. but you know it was a finish your military and should stay in the military the u.s. military should stay out of all of these countries and the fact that we're not intervening is not you know much more not we are situations in life they are very close and this is why aren't we in the i really hope i think they are you having a liaison where you've been is you go first go first pay go ahead the question is the question is asked yourself three days ago what would you like to see if your forces they can hold our benghazi then just think about the consequences of this. don't know why do you think how it goes if you're taken over by i think i know these i didn't from aids has no business the united states have no business trying to tell the libyan people or the people in other countries of that region how they

should conduct their affairs and the united states has a one hundred percent sailing record of intervention we go in there and we mass everything up and that's exactly what we're going to now and when you go to libya during the revolution and only once and use a lead in cairo where you're going to hand off to me you know we don't have an alert here we're going to go we're in cairo let me yes all right now eric again i think the principle you're defending is perfectly sound but i'm a little bit worried about the self-righteousness of the principle when you apply it then it turns into a disaster yes the united states has no business intervening in the middle east but the fact is since nine hundred forty five the united states is in the middle east it is there every day it's. in israel is doing is trying to fix the problems that

they create you know if you want to for laid it out if you want to pull the united we shall get out all my help i want you hardly the united states money and foreign aid to israel and we're out of the middle aged out from the oil business first put it out from the oil business first and let me see how this goes but there's the united states is going to remain engaged the fact too in the region then it cannot three negates its other responsibilities you can't just have business with the other three and he was buried and the real trend is the order of the sea of yasser troops should not be in there trying to defend us only also just the business. is all right there's a very good point is not going to be there so we should not it is like we're going to the hague it's a very interesting point that there's a grand there. you know it is again brings up a good point either gentlemen listen ok i mean if i didn't. say that let me kind of redefine the question here oh gentlemen please eric said you know the united states

should get out of the region ok eric if you don't mind i'll refine that a little bit maybe the united states it will stay in the region because it has been their business interests trade interests if united states should be determining political outcomes islam do you agree with that state i'm talking about the u.s. and no if oil or oil you're going i want a well developed area we should not be defending the or the american soil as we would or any other what is the idea in the middle east here and you know that you know the military is going to go away and the c.s. should be abolished islam the way i think it should be a law i have got to you've got the floor go ahead so i connect two points first of all the oil business libya is not saudi arabia libya produces less than two percent of the world so this is one thing this is really not about oil and specially when we're talking about the united states had this conversation been about maybe the entire conversation would be different their interest here is really not the u.s.

of course it would be about the united states would be to. try to let me finish please this is about if we're speaking about interest then we must speak about european countries and their interests not the united states the focus here own do not in states i think is a good misleading person france and the u.k. took the lead on libya not the u.s. they used the u.s. and still this woman why has it and in fact. one so handed all that as a quick just read the paper i just read the press so this is really not an american lord of. the united states military you know you know like a we're going to try and shock we know of the french and the british where the leader is behind this operation not obama. not the one administration so what i fear is on the fringe liberals like you have to stay out of order as if i got it right now when you ask is of i want to go to i want to go to the i want us is

a bull in the ok all right eric finish your point is silly or something and i want to see a sharp the us ok the us is a bull in a china shop you do not pass the ball to fix things you get them out of the china shop before you try and fix things as it is and if i go to you in cairo let's try to square the circle here because i don't think we can here we've had president obama coming out hillary clinton we've had european leaders cameron we have had a cozy talking about freedom democracy all those nice things that we all like to hear about and we think about ourselves ok but how do you square that with military intervention by arming people can you bring all these wonderful ideas through the through the. bombing people killing innocent civilians create creating political facts on the ground you with military use can you bring the two together. unfortunately yes you can bring the two together it's a sad situation as i said it's

a policy that is far from being an idea the idea it would have been a much earlier intervention politically to prevent you from using his military to crush the civilians but now this is where we are you have a ruler who supported the war supported an army to by the western states who is using those armaments and using this technical military know how in order to kill civilians and this is what he's doing so the intervention now is in order to protect the civilians it is not in order to assessed to assist threat that is the and ideally always lead her to try to save their hand i would like to i would like to add a few more things to this now the military intervention is necessary at this point at this point in time but also we need to think about the. situation we need to be thinking about the plight of the planning the type of organization that needs to take place the biggest mistake that only was worried here i was already planning

libyan government action we did not have a development of plans in place so in the case of libya it was nice to be taking place at this moment time that we are engaged in military intervention there's also a second trial a track in which the then you for construction for transition to democracy for economic development is also taken place ok. and where you can do it kerry as am i going to show you and i did our i'm sorry eric i'm going to ask your question because my question to you i mean again we know the united states and its allies go into iraq ok and i think everyone even even the hardcore neo cons at least admit today well we didn't have the end game figured out too well ok there was no public debate about libya whatsoever i mean is anybody have a clue about what the end game is going to be about because most people don't even have a clue. what we're doing right now is if i go to you in cairo go ahead yes very quickly

iraq is completely difference in the case of iraq the united states unilaterally decided to go into our country and change their g.m. there against the advice of everyone in the region especially its own allies and also in europe so that's without a u.n. without a u.n. resolution and so on that was a total fiasco from day one until today that's a completely different operation with really marry your lawyers you have to better than the others or you can. say that again america had the more the more bullies you get involved the more you can rationalize it because no one has to take responsibility you know exactly the opposite when the intervention is done by a group of states who are responding to calls for intervention that is driven by the protection of their adding at least they are developing as iran aspen ok islam i want to ask you i want to they are but i want to know most of the time you know

minute and how when everybody to answer the next question what is the fate of the democratic great democratic experiment that started in north africa islam i ask you because the west had some beautiful words over the last few weeks now they're dropping bombs what's the future of democracy now. well i think there is a good hole for it i think what we need to do is three. things first make sure the rebels are all the opposition are well armed the second thing we need to do is to make sure that. when is. sanctioned to make sure that he does not have the financial and the military capabilities to. understand one is. to make sure that the opposition have the necessary training and organization to help them transition to democracy. the situation of course of that time eric i'm going to give you the

last ten seconds go. i don't think you're going to see democracy in libya any time soon great power a sorry i want to jump in we've run out of time there's been a great discussion many thanks so my guess again in the hague cairo and in san francisco and thanks to our viewers for watching as you darkie see you next time and remember crosstalk. rachel martin here broadcasting live from washington d.c. coming up today on the big picture.

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