the. keys money. mission street now in the palm of your. it certainly doesn't sound like a ceasefire so as that is being ignored in the battle lines are being drawn and redrawn in libya will have a live report from on the ground in tripoli. mindful of the risks and costs of military action we are naturally reluctant to use force to solve the world's many. still it seems sometimes we will so what else did president obama tell us about libya and could there be more your future. and the rosenberg trial it's been sixty years since julius and ethel rosenberg were convicted of espionage but the

jury's still out on what they've done for humankind we'll debate. hey there it's tuesday march twenty ninth work am in washington d.c. i'm christine freeze out there watching our t.v. . well i want to start with libya now we're after a rapid advance rebels there are now being pushed further back from the outskirts of colonel qadhafi his hometown there are reports of heavy bombardment gunfire being used by pro-government forces just by claims that a cease fire is in place are just paul's there are reports now from tripoli. let's often choose day with we now explosions here in the capital city of tripoli i was actually indoors when it happened and i can tell you that we have windows of the building visibly so this is the tenth straight day that tripoli has been the target

of coalition airstrikes and as i'm speaking to you here in a few gunshots just coming to my right now it's not only tripoli but also the city of misrata that has been hit increasingly so by these coalition planes this also is the last rebel held stronghold in the midst of libya but the latest reports that there is of the rebels off fast losing ground it's very difficult as foreign journalists to ascertain exactly what's happening in misrata because the fighting there has been going on for almost a month and we have simply been unable to enter the downtown area of the city the doctors there telling us that it is already days that the hospital ran out of medical supplies that they have been forced to turn patients away that government's micah's all standing on the roofs of buildings and literally shooting at anything that needs and that some of the government tanks that are shelling are actually shaming into residential areas now one of this is happening on the one hand there's this war of all ends and ammunition there is another war that's taking place parallel to it and this is the war of propaganda it is interesting that the

pentagon has been given almost daily accounts in terms of its operations here in libya but only now has it made mention of its propaganda claims and these are essentially planes that fly over in battle towns and cities they drop leaflets and they bore cross messages urging people to stop supporting gadhafi to lay down arms and to return home it doesn't really seem to be anything decisive on the horizon serving off now in terms of the front line which keeps shifting just forty eight hours ago it certainly looked as if the rebels were making a quick yvonne's ultimately here on the capital city of tripoli not only have they been stopped at gadhafi stronghold of sirte prepared not actually being pushed back and the latest word we have is that they are in the town of bin jawad but even those kind of reports. keep changing if you always with some of course suggesting that they've actually been pushed even further back to russell and greg the problem with the rebels is that they simply do not have enough weapons not only that but that the britons they do have are insufficient and old and this is why we hear

rebels calling to the international community to number large step up the airstrikes and number to supply them with more weapons they won't miss if they are receiving reinforcements of these weapons from the egyptian border we're also hearing that as gadhafi forces would cheat and as they run away in face of impending in strikes they leave a lot of weapons and ammunition behind that the rebels of unable to take and use themselves but certainly the opposition need is very much a hoping that they will be a willingness expressed by the international community to continue to be involved in the company here because certainly without that international involvement the rebels really did not stand a chance of even reaching tripoli that was largely correspondent hala slayer in tripoli all right so we are on day eleven now in libya and the latest report has the cost of five hundred fifty million dollars i don't know about you but i can think of a few things right here at home that five hundred fifty million dollars could serve well the debate about libya is one with many layers but certainly one of those layers is the cost and one pretty well known lawmaker says that money should be

polled congressman dennis christen she's here in studio to talk about that and i know congressman you wrote a letter to the president last week talking about a few of your frustrations about what's going on and you said pretty bluntly i want to pull this funding talk about this. since congress wasn't consulted on whether to go to war and the only real power congress has here to assert it's the people's representatives is to stop funding now when you say congress wasn't consulted i mean the president did meet with leadership in both houses didn't he well you can meet with a few leaders but there are five hundred thirty five members of congress the constitution of the united states makes it abundantly clear in article one section eight that the war powers as it's put in the hands of the congress this is not an academic issue by the way because what we have is a president who basically is assumed as a matter of executive privilege the war power and this has grave implications for

our democracy and i know one of your other criticisms is simply that using the military is not a good strategy to deal with humanitarian issues talk about the bombing that has occurred through and in large no fly zone where the no fly zone mandate was expanded to go after could reach troops and then expand it further to help the rebels as they move towards tripoli that bombing is there's no way you can avoid civilian casualties and so what we're doing here is enlarging humanitarian crisis with more people becoming refugees with more as civilians put at risk of injury or death due to the bombing there are some who share your criticisms and there are others who say you know what it's not just libya where this is happening we're going to go into libya let's not be hypocritical let's go into this exam let's go into yemen let's go into craig and the president for the first time i

think responded to that in his speech last night let's listen to what he said it's true that america cannot use our military wherever repression occurs. given the cost and risks of intervention we must always measure our interests against an infraction but that cannot be an argument for never acting on behalf of what's right so we said we should measure our interests in against the need for action what do you think are some of the interests he was talking about. i'm not sure because secretary gates meet the press there were no. vital american interests he said there were interest but not quite right and i thought the interests at stake on the other hand secretary clinton said in another interview on sunday that provide all interests of our nato allies including

france and great britain were at stake well you know what. if we're going to use the nato charter to invoke the united states' involvement and not go to the night go to the united states congress if we're going to use the u.n. without going to the u.s. congress the arab league coordinate with france and great britain and now check with the u.s. congress we've lost our way here but i want to thank congressman and france and great britain obviously they have been pretty outspoken that they think this is a good idea a lot of the other option here does this president obama say you know what france great britain you go ahead we'll just sit this one out where we have to ask who are you who are we helping percival where and where is this headed because. there are questions raised about who these rebels are and whether or not they have in fact been involved in operations against the united states in iraq and perhaps in afghanistan we've been in this situation in afghanistan one day we help people and

the next day they shoot at us if we are cautious about military intervention so blow back their charm was johnson johnson wrote famously about is sure to happen in libya we are we are in the middle of a war here and one does not see an end to it and i know that there are people on both sides of the aisle in congress who share your sentiment i know that congressman ron paul has talked a little bit about why he agrees with you and i know his son just came out with a statement let's take a listen to what he said. the problem with sending u.s. military to help rebels in libya or anywhere else is that we are taking sides in a conflict and on behalf of the people whom we know nothing about. when or if there is regime change in libya what kind of leadership exactly will replace could offer who are the libyan rebels exactly senator rand paul republican from kentucky

talking about that sort of playing with kind of what you said which is we don't really know much about these people you're saying there's a possibility that the rebels could turn around could say you know what we want to fight the civil war ourselves talk a little bit about what senator rand paul said as it relates to what happens next well. it's been pointed out that in iraq we didn't have an exit strategy in libya appears that we don't have an entrance strategy and when the when we enter into that when we when we help accelerate the chaos. and in creating more chaos which we think somehow we're going to be able to direct the outcome it's this same hubris that has visited the united states and iraq the same hubris that keeps us penya and in afghanistan causes us to believe that somehow we are

going to wreck events and the outcome in libya we cannot do that nor do we have the right to determine who the leader of libya should be as of noxious as market afy may be it is not for us to leave the people of libya of his regime. let's talk about a lot of comparisons have been drawn to this war to other wars that we've been involved in in the past in other wars that were involved in now but we think about iraq and you know president bush has said that he hopes to get as many people on board as possible but it wasn't as easy as he thought it would be and in this case president obama does have the u.n. does have nato does have other countries wasn't this a better situation because he did have the approval and you know as he says he the u.s. is playing a supporting role where you could actually argue even though it was questionable that. the mandate that he assumed that president bush did in fact go to the

united states congress in october of two thousand and two to gain their permission to attack iraq unfortunately the case they made was false now he put together what was called the coalition of the willing we don't know how willing people are in those coalitions nor do we know how willing the twenty eight members of nato the twenty two members of the arab league the fifteen members of the security council were approached to go to war have been in this in this coalition i will say this. ministration of time to see all these people didn't have time to check with the united states congress and constitutionally mandated all right certainly you've you're doing a lot of work here on this issue and so many more congressman dennis kucinich so much thank you so much for joining us and to me when we saw earlier in the show our own policy clear on the ground in tripoli and hundreds of journalists remains to cover the day to day events there to help the rest of the world can grasp on what's

going on kate harmon snow is a veteran war correspondent joining us from williamsburg massachusetts hey there you know i'm wondering if your take on this as you've been watching the coverage of libya certainly we've been getting some mixed messages from the ground rebels have taken over sirte and they're being pushed back but sort of challenges do you think journalists in libya are facing. well first of all if you're operating with the rebels you're either side you're operating with you're an embedded reporter you need better work or target for war journalists and being embedded means you can only cover one side of the conflict honestly or else you're going to be shot quite frankly u.s. military would not allow anyone to operate is going to tell the story of u.s. military bombings of hospitals for example that happened in libya killings of innocent civilians as soon as they do that's the end of their invented relationship with u.s. military other journalists who work independently in war zones like iraq or afghanistan have been targeted and eliminated by their coalition forces meaning western forces meaning nino you know written etc because they've been reporting

more honestly but what happens so it's impossible to be an independent journalist to some degree it's just it's really an information propaganda war serving a very imperious to gender at this point i wanted to talk to you i know that you've done a lot of reporting and africa from what i understand but you know war reporting and reporting in tough regions there can be a lot of similarities i'm wondering your thoughts on exactly what's going on in libya in terms of the challenges that these reporters are facing i mean you talked about some of them you know being embedded the challenges reporting fairly but what about you know other stuff the safety and other things that they deal with. well i work in afghanistan and congo uganda in ethiopia as war reporter each of which were conflict zones at the time in particular afghanistan is well known in the congo it can be more dangerous you're faced with you know if your problem is most your many journalists out there are not not honest they're not going to tell the truth if you

tell the truth you can't consider who you're working with and how that's going to play out it becomes very difficult to present an honest picture of the events you have to be able to pay for protection or work with somebody to protect you so i mean you have the united states military or with the rebels as i said otherwise you don't you potentially face the possibility of being shot or exploded by one of these u.s. tomahawk attacks for example because they're indiscriminately killing this is not targeted well well positioned well targeted attacks these are indiscriminate killings of civilians and military targeted military installations as well as hospitals etc so journalists face that you know that probably playability i think that's a good point caper you bring up i mean it is extremely difficult and if we just look around what's going on the world right now there's a lot that needs to be covered and i think you make a good point that in order to cover it fairly you need to be independent however it's nearly impossible to be independent in a region where it's just too dangerous what's the answer here how do we get

a fair assessment about exactly what's really going on what's the same thing with anything else we have to remove the money from the politics remove the money from your reporting and remove your money from the government and reason the government officials in the united states government allowing this to happen this indiscriminate killing of people in afghanistan iraq congo ethiopia where you for example is because the money that has bought them off from the tens industries which are profiting from this or from the other corporations that are going to make money on it whether it's coca-cola was interest in sudan or in guard for significant or whatever it's the same thing with journalists journalists are there with a paycheck they're there with support from some institution whether it's the new york times or the. national. grady or whoever to get some sort of level of support and most journalists can operate without that because if you don't have any money you don't have any support how can you do this work and that's the basic bottom once a financial financial aspect which then determines censorship and the private profit motive just keeping with the you know specifically dealing with libya we just had

congressman percentage on here we heard from senator rand paul i want questions about exactly who the rebels are this is a group of people that the u.s. has gone in to work with to protect the fighting for democracy but there are starting to be questions raised about who they are and if they'll stay loyal to the u.s. than nato forces any insight into that in terms of how that's been covered from the ground. but if the rebels comprise four significant components of the rebel so-called rebel and take it out the movement in libya and that would be the popular uprising component is definitely a popular uprising people disaffected by forty years of dictatorship and seen cannot be rule serving american interests for example since two thousand and four or serving british interests for longer than that in corporate interests nothing coming back to the country so there's a popular component and there's a cia backed component some of these rebels the national front for the salvation of libya he's guys were recently working with the cia in sudan and in early one nine

hundred eighty s. against other factions of the united states was fighting against that time and now they show up in libya they had meetings in washington in the last two years and they had meetings in london before these events unfolded on twentieth of february and there's an islamic fundamentalist component which seems to be these islamic radicalism radicals who have some association with britain and the united states and israel prior to february twentieth two thousand and eleven and that means they've been used by the u.s. and its agents to serve interests in different places such as in afghanistan prior to the u.s. invasion meaning with the taliban so this is an islamic fundamentalists so there's a national component is the cia component is not in fundamentalists and then you've got some gift disaffected. military from could get out his regime themselves would be again part of the disaffected popular uprising component but the question is where do they get their backing right certainly some interesting points made and a good time to talk about it as we reach they alive and in libya keep comments now

i turned war correspondent thanks so much. well today marks the sixtieth anniversary of the day julius and ethel rosenberg were handed down a conviction for conspiracy to commit espionage for stealing a time advance secrets from the united states this was a ruling that would later lead to their execution we're talking about a time by hysteria anti-communism sentiment and fear of new developments in the making of the atomic man the rosenbergs case continues to be tied in history classes around the country as a significant and important event and also continues to be debated to this day and even yes on this program right here to discuss is brian becker national coordinator for the answer coalition and seaton martley president of less government so i'm going to start with you the case of the rosenbergs we've learned about it since we were young here in our schools in america was this justice served or a stain on american history. of trans groups and we were ninety one when. the

k.g.b. records released he was guilty and they got what they deserved execution for sharing secrets yes you're laughing over here brian what do you think what we're going to my grammar the the conviction of the rosenbergs and then their execution was of course we should remember the first time civilians had been executed in the united states for the activists it was conspiracy to commit espionage it was in fact the beginning of the mccarthy which i'm hearing thousands of people would have to leave the united states are tens of thousands lost their job many people who are communist or socialist we could prison simply for believing in socialism or communism and it was a hysteria and of course it was a complete legal lynching in all ways at all rosenberg as we know now from the record that we have seen was really held hostage they were hoping that her husband would name names and she was put in really as a as a pawn in this bigger hysteria so this was illegal lynching scene as brian said.

sort of a product of the time do you think that people today americans who had the intention perhaps of sharing secrets that they should be executed today yes depending upon what the secrets or for instance what the rosenberg shared about the manhattan project was certainly grounds for execution. you can laugh all you want but you know we had kids hiding under their desks for thirty years a byproduct of hysteria was yeah yeah another third of us history of the soviets are going to bomb they would not be they were not climbing under the gas from an american bar or actually only the americans ever dropped an atomic bomb let's not forget that i mean until the soviets had nuclear parity when the us had a monopoly on nuclear weapons they in fact use nuclear weapons against civilian cities and we after the soviets acquired the nuclear weapons which of course was a great great disappointment for the pentagon in fact no nuclear weapons we had venue and a great example where freedom loving people fifty thousand people died in over five

hundred thousand people died in north korea and korea and vietnam as a result of the parity use you. would judge cartman said when he sends the rosenbergs that he said you're responsible for all the deaths in korea because of that the soviets didn't have a nuclear weapon then north korea doesn't only would not have been in a conflict with south korea as if that was the reason it was a conflict in korea that's ridiculous. i would think i want to turn this back to you said even today that if somebody committed the same crime or is charged with committing the same crime that they should be executed today let me turn the tables and ask you about this one about americans working for the cia working in other countries trying to find out important secrets or information to protect this country if they're discovered by leaders of other countries are they then they'll be there without benefit of a trial but then if i should they be a lot of the at our disposal to work the rosenbergs so so i'm not asking if they will or won't i mean should they be executed in your mind americans doing what they think is right to protect this country working in dangerous situations you execute

on us by the other country or that's going to happen and you're not going to. another words another words first of all the rosenbergs did not give the nuclear secrets of the soviet union it each and every step of the way the united states said every major advance and so we technology had to be gleaned from certain spies the so the rows and rows to the extent if julius rosenberg was involved at all was low level the soviets the bug the nuclear weapon all states as you mentioned involve engage in stake they have informers the americans have thousands of informants and the soviets obviously did to the point of the matter is the rosenbergs were executed as part of an anti communist hysteria harry truman at that time in the time of their arrest sixty years ago he was the least parker were president during an unpopular war the korean war up until george w. bush suddenly there was a diversion the whole blame could be shifted to the communists that's the nature of the the politics of diversion the benefit of history i don't know of any congress history so much as an anti espionage hysteria and they committed us financially

gave away nuclear secrets and if we other secrets that would be the death of american agents and they deserved to go and they were all right speaking of giving away secrets that in some ways you could call the rosenbergs at least for what they're convicted of sort of the previous day's whistleblower certainly we talk a lot about whistleblowers today with the case and with ricki lake we talk about bradley manning who is accused not charged but accused of leaking classified documents to wiki leaks he has been treated. in many ways you could say tortured kept in solitary confinement who knows what else is going on over there and something coming out in the way he's been treated brian do you think this is a fair connection to say that in some ways bradley manning is a modern day rosenberg well in the sense that he's been scapegoated in demonized i mean there are important differences in the case where what bradley manning is accused of doing is really seen classified documents that the new york times published and other mainstream media in europe published but what's important is

that the military is treating him as a. he could be and the charges are being prepared so that he could be sentenced to life in prison were executed for releasing these documents that the new york times saw fit to print and in that case too were in you hear the republicans in the conservatives in congress and in the media saying yes bradley manning should be if need be executed to to send a message to other people whistleblowers so in that sense i think there is a comparison even though some of the fact patterns are different things said bradley manning be executed for what he's done if he's convicted of doing what they say. so sort of before also i don't think it's an equal comparison that. the rosenbergs weren't. they didn't give it to the new york times they gave it to the soviet union they're not whistleblowers they're spies what what mental what manning has been charged giving away is i think of such a nature it's destructive to our foreign policy just destruction to our national

interests but if he did all of what he's been accused of doing now charged as you point out i do i do think you deserved to be executed yes he's been tried in the media just as the rosenbergs were trading media he's been held he's been held incommunicado charges have not yet been pressed and yet he's stripped naked every night i mean he's being held in a way that would be humiliating and considered a form of torture why because they're trying to do what yes when you look at when you keep people. really were torturing you humiliate people when you degrade people it's a form of psychological sake arps terror and just as ethel rosenberg who the new wasn't in no way involved in any of this. espionage it to the extent that it existed the way she was held in a in a particular way threatened with hoping that she would be and then her husband or start a new name so that the hysteria could grow that's the nature of the hysteria many people say that's something that they're it seems that they're trying to do with bradley manning in terms of trying to giving the breaking him and getting giving

access to julian assange brand i want to go back to this point we did earlier interview the son of julius. i thought rosenberg and i presented a theory that's pretty common and he says he can buy at least part of it and that is the theory that the rosenbergs were disloyal to their country but they were loyal to their class they were loyal to the workers so you know if this is the case being loyal to their class and for their country a lot take what's going on now with the unions of people who say that they are most loyal to workers workers' rights does that mean that they should then you know give wellstone a communist party well i think it's perfectly legal in the united states to be loyal to the communist party or the party for socialism or liberation or other socialist parties there is nothing wrong with that in communist and socialist understood that the soviet union in its conflict with the united states and then in need to win in the late one nine hundred forty s. was not acting as an aggressor was now preparing nuclear weapons in order to drop them in other countries was in fact operating from a defensive posture the soviets lost twenty seven million and they were the ones who principally defeated fascism then the chinese had

a revolution in forty nine in the korean revolution the vietnamese revolution so working people around the world were in a state of operating against colonial oppression and class oppression and they were sympathizers and activists and socialists and communists in the united states and of course they were loyal to that revolutionary process you are seeking your head on a few different aspects of what it is you want to touch and hundreds of a cross all the soviets in the defense of passion late forty's and early fifty's as a patently false absurd joke second of the the there were the ones that were fast during the communist revolutions not workers communist revolution to korea. yes yes there's no if you care you don't is a very powerful leadership and if you can make all the people in vietnam rise up and you know harder to taking their orders from star want to. yes and beyond that and if rosen bros were loyal to their class it should have rescinded their american citizenship and return to the country or go to

a country that was more in line with their thinking about. do you know when they were citizens and the question is what country what question in charge in country shouldn't just be the billionaires you don't have to give us we really should we'll write a little we have a major major story we're countries working people see just as then they're somehow traitors but in fact you know they're very good as national nuclear secrets of the group then they're treated right unfortunately we are out of time certainly to talk about this for a lot longer not only president of the last government and brian becker the national coordinator for the answer coalition and that is going to do it for now but for more on the stories we covered totally go to our website our team dot com slash usa also check out our youtube page at youtube dot com slash r t america listen we've got a lot more coming up in the next hour at five o'clock we will speak with enrique morones who asked the question regarding libya he wants to know why president obama is going to libya as opposed to going to a.