screecher. russia close up. world. renewed elitist science and certainly from the realms. of the future are covered. at three thirty pm moscow al times these are the headlines on our three top exactly eight is reportedly in london for talks over the libyan regime leaders future conference foreign minister has already factored in the more officials maybe about the bend them very leader and. u.s. top brass are getting a really in congress with many still uncertain as to what a low goal of the libyan campaign is and whom are going to pay for it.

also the price of dealing with georgia two israeli businessman owed millions by to d.c. are jalen find on bribery charges that say the government framed them to move boyd packing up. and a palestinian engineer disappears from a train in ukraine before resurfacing in an israeli jail with the scandal gathering momentum kiev tonight any involvement in the incident or some. more analysis on the situation in libya and cross talk coming up next leader of al asad as gas if nato is the susan to back out position was a wise choice. can't . stand. alone when welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle arming to when the conflict in libya has reached a stalemate should western powers expand their intervention and arm the and take it

off the rebels would this be tantamount to choosing sides in a growing civil war and as time passes there's an end game in libya become even more elusive. can. you discuss the ongoing stalemate in libya i'm joined by jim l. democracy he's in london he's a libyan writer and political activists he's also a british coordinator for the rebel interim national council of libya in washington we have ivan eland he's a senior fellow and director of the center on peace in liberty at the independent institute and in tucson we have hudson she is an associate professor of near east studies at the university of arizona and another member of our crosstalk team on the hunger all right this is cross town that means you can jump in anytime you want if i could go to tucson should view the united states and its western allies one

way or another legally or illegally or a split the difference between the laws and what we want to do morally give arms to anti kadafi rebels and i'm not going to use the word democratic right liberals yet until someone can convince me they are democrats go ahead. what i believe or not is not really the issue we've already taken the first steps down this road and if you look at the last twenty four hour news cycle you'll see that there are special forces on the ground in libya right now and in an afghanistan style scenario that is the first step towards ever greater. involvement in the conflict on the ground there are two different interpretations of what's going on on the ground on the one hand these special forces these u.s. special forces are probably doing much more precise and specific targeting on behalf of the air attack the tactical phase of the air attack

but if you look at the washington post this morning the argument is in fact that intelligence on the ground is actually trying to figure out who the rebels are in order to better position the united states politically so again whether one is pro or anti intervention the first steps down the slippery slope of already been taken in london if i can go to argue you support having the powers arm be and i could offer you forces it without make a difference in the stalemate or at least you are we can see on the ground right now a stalemate will that make a difference will make your side when. but first of all we have to remember that the security council there is a consecutive council resolution banning export of weapons to libya however on the other hand we can see now it is not is not a me in even situation get that he has very have have we are mentally armory he has

tanks he has multiple rocket launchers he has artillery he's shelling cities and towns and residential areas whereas the fighters of the revolution or the freedom fighters are very very lightly armed so there comes a point where we ask the question well you know just because there is an empowered group or because we should not one side can we just sustain this mass killing can we just turned a blind eye and say well you know it's tough you know we can shell and you know launch all these rockets and kill all these civilians but we cannot the other side this other i think there is a very strong moral issue of the on the other hand also we libyans have frozen assets outside libya in tens of billions we have also oil which we are we can now export through an agreement with qatar so why not be allowed to buy buy weapons to

defend ourselves against a mad that's what who has who is insisting on going and going on killing his killing belittling people on mass i mean even franker you in washington we've already chosen sides the west already chosen a sign it's going to be if you can you comment upon the west now because it has chosen a site to start making sure it's guys on the ground when i mean this is the slippery slope we were all worried about and it seems to be playing out right in front of our eyes. yes and it's happened time and again we haven't been too successful in the past in arming rebel movements remember angola remember nicaragua remember the worst case was when it seemed like a great idea to arm the mujahedeen against the soviet union during the cold war and look what we got that we got the only threat to the u.s. homeland since the war of eight hundred twelve so i think we really have to be careful about unintended consequences and certainly i risk i wish the rebels well but i think your other guest made

a good point if they have the money to buy the weapons i don't mind them buying them but i don't want the u.s. getting in too involved in on the ground training and that sort of thing because i just don't and of course there's a doubt about whether the rebels are competent enough to use these weapons they don't have very good leadership they don't have very good tactics and they don't even really know how to use simple weaponry so i'm not sure you know how they get the training but they can purchase training. overseas from countries that are willing to sell them the weapons but i don't really want to see the united states going abroad because i don't think u.s. vital interests is involved here and i think we need to be careful and as far as humanitarian goes in kosovo we started bombing for humanitarian reasons there was limited and ethnic cleansing and of course after one after we started bombing the regime had nothing to lose so it just went whole hog and i think the same thing could happen here and we may face a stalemate all cut off he has to do is keep tanks in the major cities how are

these rebels going to get him out of there that's. a fail safe last resort. option there because it's going to be very difficult to get armor out of cities and that sort of thing. if he digs in and uses the cities as human shields against nato airstrikes so we could have a stalemate we could have. position that we don't know much about they could turn there may be a president in that opposition there seems to be some indication of that we've got to be very careful here there are many unintended consequences that could happen from this really so you know as we heard where would you like to emphasize because . it was a lot of points mentioned there i mean what would you like to amplify. from there you know i'd actually like to go back i'd like to go back to a point that jonah raised. that i haven't picked up in the context of

using rebel financial resources to actually finance and coagulate rebel command and control i've been arguing this for about two weeks now that in fact one of the key steps that would be far more seems to me beneficial and empowering to the rebel cause is the step that just happened i guess in the last couple of days namely using the resources of the eastern libyan. company to contract separate oil deals and to finance the rebel cause now interestingly it's only cutter who has taken the rebels up on this and who has begun to take on this rather risky business of doing while deals in a conflict environment and yet i think this is probably the most promising outcome

rather than all the back and forth all the sort of half starts and fits and divided little kid like you can imagine if it was you guys and let me ask you a question because it sounds like you know you could end up getting a partition state that's really what it looks like because we just don't know the rebels do not want that that yeah i mean i would ask that's the dilemma isn't there so the danger here yeah it's a huge dilemma actually and yet it's. seems to me that because people whether it is the transitional interim government. the marteau is of course a unified libya of which tripoli is the capital and there is a very strong reaction against consolidating down into an eastern syrian a based stronghold because it seems to yield the west to gadhafi i understand that sensitivity entirely but it seems to me that what we've seen in the last twelve

days of the no fly zone is not a superior solution ok one day we see this back and forth now on the road basically of this coastal highway back and forth between ras lanuf and as there be in all these different towns one day the rebels are advancing the next day khadafi is advancing and it doesn't seem as if the nato airstrikes are allowing the kind of quick decisive rebel advance i think that everyone would like to see interestingly of course it's qatar that is beginning to facilitate the rebel financing which would allow the rebels to pay for and finance their own weaponry and i going to do this when you know now that we're. in london if i go to you are you getting prepared for the long haul a long civil war and we came out weeks or months are we talking about eventually a partition state because as has been pointed out on this program is that the the

rebels whatever groups there are they're not very well armed they're not very well trained or not very well disciplined and they don't have a whole lot of communication i mean you don't get an army but a strap of a finger even though it takes a while to get yourself together to fight a civil war which essentially is what's happened what do you think. yes first of all partition is not on the table we will never contemplate that we will never agree to it whatever it takes because libya will always be united with tripoli as its capital secondly if there is no civil war in libya there is the whole of the libyan people against a mad the sport who is spinning out of control and waging a mass war against a population that does not want them thirdly the some people think that the whole of the east is free but the whole of the west is under god that is controlled that is not correct and misrata is that third largest city in libya nearly half a million population is only one hundred eighty kilometers east of tripoli that's

just over one hundred miles is not and they're going to have his control although he's been engulfing it and shelling it constantly constantly the whole of the western mountain region from about two hundred kilometers south of tripoli all the way to the algerian border is not under gadhafi controlled all good that he controls is just tripoli one couple of towns south of it and now tripoli is going through a very very tough period i'll tell you just before our time to the studio other quote from tripoli tripoli is run out of fuel it's running out of food there the bread the bread queues are very long people are getting very very driven at the job and here we are very good you with this after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the events in libya and stay with r.t. . if you still. feel the need.

wealthy british style. markets why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy in the kinds of reports. it's the secret incursion into the country. it's the invasion by means of. traditional language tell you this is the best d o p thirty three. and culture. the thing is that the have the germans are still unaware of what's going on in the land the silastic the idea. i don't know anything about alaska. and our cheap.

welcome back to cross talk computor live oak tree mind you we're talking about what many people call the civil war in libya. but first let's see what russians think about how to resolve the libyan crisis. and when he says the goal of the western led effort in libya is in question then i wonder if the people of libya are really being held in there. the public opinion agency love i just said all stresses what the international community can do to stop the bloodshed and to protect. the one percent of those polled say they should be no intervention thirteen percent say comic sanctions against the regime as

a solution to the problem twelve percent believe that is asses should be frozen ten percent think a closed space can help and seven percent support a ground operation in libya the future of the libyan people is far from being clear that. ok if we sat down and to do this program nato still is very very was actually very against arming any groups in libya the united states britain france other members of nato are not so separate members are not so clear on it in we've heard from the u.s. that it's they're getting they're entertaining the idea i mean if i hear you i mean i'm i'm the biggest cynic i know i mean by arming the rebels and with nato air support it's just a matter of time before you can polarize down the gadhafi regime though as you pointed out earlier in the program it could take a very long time it could be very very nasty but it's a pride issue now i suppose for mr obama isn't it by arming the rebels the west

particularly the united states is a major stakeholder in the future of the country's politics and economy and its oil . well that's the that's the old adage if you break it you bought it and i think. we're breaking libya right now and i'd like to point out that even a partition country even if it's not perfectly east and west is better than what you had before with gadhafi running everything so i think if you could even hold it to that people should be happy of course to reality is that obama despite him saying that the goal is natural move could our feet on the ground that's what's happening and of course everyone in england will tell you behind the scenes that is the goal they're hoping by some miracle that his army will overthrow him or something like that but i think that's remote as long as he makes battlefield gains like he did yesterday and you can have a game defectors and that sort of thing but i think he's going to win for

a while because it takes time to train an army against him and i'm not denigrating with the rebels have done they've been surprisingly and they have a great spirit but the problem is he's got people with military training he's got mercenaries and he's got heavy armor and artillery especially and of course you know we can only do so much in that unless you are armed but the problem that we have in united states is that it is a slippery slope and we need to send trainers if you're going to send him u.s. equipment you need to send u.s. trainers u.s. maintenance all this has to be taught in this is not done in short period of time so they better hurry up or it's going to or they're going to wipe out the rebels maybe i don't know if western airpower can probably keep them out of benghazi it already did but again you're going to have this stalemate for a long time until you can get the rebel army trained up but i think if the rebels want to buy. weapons and buy the training from some other countries that's fine but

i would really not like to see the u.s. take the lead on that human fine go back to you in london. this is very good point it's all about logistics. really in the end. if you see it you see a regime like a draftees and we've heard about we've heard talk of the international criminal court we've heard issues about human rights violations war crimes but what what reason just get half in his clique have to really negotiate now or do you just fight to death i mean they have no initiative down to negotiate or even to surrender. i think you're missing the other factors in the dynamics what's happening is that you get that his grip loosening this this revolution started to peaceful demonstrations get that it chose to wage a war against those people and prevent them from demonstrating peacefully we are in

the state where we are today but look what's happening now yesterday and today. it's our jumping ship with our course our foreign secretary today only three x. four and secretary you and boy does the way you now the head of the parliament actively. dorda acts prime minister head of the intelligence and others they're all jumping ship what's in the sun can i can i ask you a question about these protections are going to it's very interesting as we move forward do you think do you think those members are people that have defected very high profile for foreign minister and what not i for a former head of intelligence would you be willing to work with him if he joined your side if he is he's somebody that you want to work with and would he be an ally to the west if he were to join your coalition your your opposition group. well if they are people who have no plot out on their hands they have not perpetrated any crimes against libyans if they are just. politicians who are not involved in

any wrongdoings i would say as as a person personally this is my personal opinion yes we would welcome them because obviously what they're doing is weakening at taffy but if it's somebody like must of course always gotta and the tories record of blood on his hand of course we will not welcome them so it's ok but no my point is yeah who's left with him and his sons and close aides and cousins from his own tribe how long can he sustain this soon the military brass those who are controlling the security brigades and doing the fighting for him the top generals and officers will realize that they are fighting a hopeless battle that they will die so soon they will start defecting as well soon he says machinery and his and his and his hierarchy is going to start to degrade and disseminate and just wither away he cannot sustain it tripoli is suffering now people are fighting today we have stories of people killing each other over fuel and bread and food there is no cash in the planks here

a lot of cash i'm agreeing with you figure out how these range the great irish national question is going to jump in. well i was just going to say you know i hope that i hope. other guest just said is true because i'd like to get rid of gadhafi myself but their arm is all these things were said about saddam hussein that they're going to be the factors after the first gulf war but and that's the u.s. plan seems to be getting get in partially into these things and then hope for a coup well it didn't is that it happens in some countries it doesn't happen in other countries but it didn't happen with saddam after the first gulf war so i think we have to be a little skeptical that that's a you're good u.s. strategy to go in and then hope for it is the idea acidy of hope i guess to quote the president's own saying to run a strategy like this or we're going to get into some bombing and that sort of thing and hope for the best and i just don't see going to war in that way is responsible and i can't believe the us foreign policy establishment is supporting that type of

a half baked option in line and it can be just as something to say ok but this isn't but this is not the u.s. against gadhafi in fact the u.s. has taken a back seat through this is a thirty three countries internationally are you headed i'm not even country it is the u.s. against. the rioting most of them i can you can see my point please can i finish my point please can i finish my point please other countries to live out of countries two of them are engaged in the military action norway and canada. and netherland sort of denmark one to three countries france britain you know if this is not the us against gadhafi and we have not invited to you as to come in we have asked the security council the legal entity who is responsible for protecting people around the world to intervene and protect libyan civilians who have been killed on mt nobody spoke and i haven't heard from about a from you or sort of from your guest the gentleman did anything about this but it

must killing i guess the whole population what's happening in libya is another one day not a tough. where is your guest the gentleman how people are allowed to happen. even if their you are since they can part i mean please keep keep your ideology of anti american administration out of our well i mean we are in the things i used to say to relate is and i didn't write it up at the very beginning of the program and i don't think it's out to be pro or anti american it's just that being pro practical and seeing what has happened in the now you know no no no i mean it's always very easy as it all due respects or it's always very easy these days they have the americans bomb them for us ok the americans will support us here they'll give us that's not a good idea but that's the point i just want to add to that this is so generously please have some sense among a lot of people my mind that it's all i'm saying because it's what americans know to mum but it was the french who saved one guy's he's the second because he's not there magic and we're not asking americans to come on that we please get this right

. ok but at the end of the day if you can barely hear us is you're in the middle at the end of the day is footing the bill and if things continue it oh yes it is obviously a good thing i noticed i had going to washington go ahead is that i have it but it is not a plane put it quite well and you look at the size of the riser still providing most of the strikes and they're also providing intelligence tanking aircraft aircraft it you know logistics and that sort of thing that no other air force has when you have or you have a coalition air strikes and any other guy who has a high and it has such a concern for whatever pain is on the podium when they give the briefing it's u.s. driven and it's us to scenes the u.s. is letting the french it is night the liaises not on this reserve was driven her about french and british aircraft is that you know and the strikes they have are is not going to last a self-righteous that does little a base and a journey into afghanistan and it may turn into iraq and i think that's the major concern. is what that is the europeans and the americans continue to look at going

down the slippery slope of intervention for a group of people with all due respect sir we really don't know who you are yet we hear that those there is and i'll move on i'll try to is there a very specific target but there are other people there are you other agendas we are you know who we are is very much described as it is if you want tribal society we'd like to know before we had the more i think that's fair isn't it if i had a misconception it is not the tribal society that is wrong that's a misconception ask me and i'll tell you who we are not the tribal society ok well can you tell us what you were going to say she's well we've got twenty seconds go ahead. ok then time constant is a national broadly based council resentment always cities and towns in libya they have lawyers judges and human rights activists academics women liberals generals if we are not the type of society to produce two million by gaza's one million muslims as have already gentlemen this year i'm going to have to jump in here many thanks

and i guess a day in london tucson and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember crosstalk pulls.

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