markets. find out what's really happening to the global economy for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines. because the reports on our. past the hour here in moscow you without seeing the headlines now nato is accused of incompetence in libya and he could not be foursomes after mass strike kills at least five rebels on the frontline this follows a harsh criticism of the alliance its failure to defeat pro-government forces during this three week operation which threatens to become a stalemate. the plans to bail out that stricken portugal sparked anger among

europeans concerned that strong economies are once again forced to pay out for the others to prop up the euro zone portugal's echoes of those involved in greece with many predicting spain might be next. and in japan there are reports of a radioactive water leak at the nuclear power plant which is just about one hundred kilometers from the stricken fukushima facility follows a new earth quake that shook the country killing three and injuring over one hundred people. so in order to save lives in libya why not the country for three weeks first that's the mentality ideology and allied forces in that country and that's a lot for a heated debate right now with crosstalk. you .

know when welcome to cross talk i'm curious about the logic or kill logic of humanitarian interventions as libya grinds into stalemate well outside powers find themselves fall deeper into this quagmire you such interventions in everybody involved greater military escalation and do interventions we do invasions. to discuss the uses in misuses of humanitarian interventions i'm joined by omar tora b. in irvine he is a political analyst and an advisor to the transitional national council of libya in washington we have holy arbaaz a he's a senior fellow at the foundation for defense of democracies and in london we cross to john reeves he is a national officer of stop the war coalition and another member of our cross talk team yelena hunger are a gentleman says cross talk you can jump in anytime you want john i want to go to you how is this humanitarian intervention going in libya and how do you define success how do you define failure when it comes to these kind of endeavors well i

think it was always a very risky operation not least because the avatar of purpose through to save the lives of civilians was never going to be easy and it certainly wasn't the main motivation i think the main motivation wasn't the saving of civilian life i think the foreign powers united states britain france primarily were very much discomfort probably unfolding over the arab revolutions in tunisia and egypt they could see that it was spreading beyond their original countries of success they wanted to go for a hold on some control of this process and the fact that the libyan revolution took the form of a civil war gave them the possibility. interventions or think in the past given reason was necessary the real motivation if we go to washington if we look at what we just heard from john is is this intervention going as planned or is it going

far worse than anyone could have expected when they started out. i think it's going to worse than expected because as we have seen lately. troops loyal to gadhafi are making some gains and they're making it very difficult for the pro-democracy forces. of course this intervention somehow saved lives because if you had a free hand and entered and gezi then we would have had massacre is far worse than what we see right now but they agree with john that the european nations that interfered are the european nations that usually supported dictatorship in the southern mediterranean and after the tunisian and egyptian revolution this is when they started to appear pro-democracy so that they can have a place in the new order of the southern mediterranean oh my what do you think about that i mean a lot of people keep using the terms to mark recy and since you come from an

organization that represents human rights in libya what is the democratic forces in libya right now the justifies this humanitarian quote unquote humanitarian intervention. first of all there is a natural instinct amongst the libyan people especially when you have a. brutal regime that suppressed people's ability to speak or move and one hand but if you're referring to with us proper prospects of democracy in libya i could tell you that my visit last week to the board stronghold the libyan opposition i spent four days in one on one with senior members of the kinds or national council i address the gathering and i came back with a very very satisfied feeling that libya is on to a democratic change in a democratic party i mean i'm sorry to interrupt you but it looks like this it

looks like a civil war it doesn't look like a march for democracy i mean how do you how do you this is a contradiction in terms this is a civil war that is getting worse by the day as we do we're doing this program here the so-called democratic opposition is angry at nato for not bombing enough their own country here i mean how can we be talking about you know a peaceful democracy when we have a raging civil war well you know i think our memories don't serve us well it's only been six and a half weeks it started out as an uprising people rose because of human rights conditions and extreme oppression and being guys here they rose they started to demonstrate peacefully and then next thing the libyan regime came and suppressed it and tended to suppress that and trust me it was not just rubber bullets or tear gas there was bullets literally the size of your arm bullets

that you usually use to explode tanks and it was very horrific the pictures we were able to very quickly get those pictures out of the world community. we live in the world and as you very well now. that ariel regime is kids around here. and they government as a whole is something that the whole entire war does not have we were doesn't really want to have you have that if you are or. the world there's actually moved and save . lives so i mean you're going on mary if i could think very divine jump in here john john john john if i was going to you i mean if we look at recent memory as he was being run out of the cold i mean not very long ago it all go ahead john. i think if we look at recent memory we want to get out of the john go ahead i think we recall i think we recall that these arguments were exactly the same as the

arguments used for the invasion of afghanistan and iraq and nobody thinks that what we've got in either place is a model of democracy and the argument that the very language here is is it is said is it dissembling language to say that the world community there is no world community i'm a citizen in this country my country is at war a majority of people in the opinion poll don't want to be bombing libya our government and the arms are factors that it's touring the middle east saudi weaponry to they want to go to the war go to war isn't true but that there is some sort of this embodied world community that is backing this what is true is that a vast majority of people in the world and a very deep sympathy with the arab revolutions in tunisia in egypt and in libya what they don't want to see is that western intervention causing a transformation in the nature of the libyan revolution so it's now the most pro western people including actually and they are the same people the people who most recently came over from look at the regime itself who were actually involved in the

suppression of their own people for decades before this who are now the interlocutors of the west the managers of military intervention the people who are doing a deal with qatar to export the oil. what they don't want to see is a bolt revolution they won't see a genuine revolution in protest of the calling that we saw working its way through introduce you to egypt but really if i go to you in washington and look it's more more more more i'm sorry let me honest truth ok omar jump in and then we'll go to washington go ahead real quick ok yeah yeah i'm sorry john in london your analysis is really really. that actual really truth on the ground in libya first of all let me tell you the real justification for and their version in libya the geopolitics of libya are very very important the way it's in north africa very close to europe there are many aspects that the europeans follow and to be very important to the european community that's one to get that he himself that dictator

the sole. ruler of libya is someone who no one on the whole entire planet is fond or likes or wants to be with and the third dimension which is very very important is that he didn't he didn't stop at anything this man would have literally killed hundreds of thousands of people it may sound exaggerated but trust me on this one right now as we speak there are a massacre has taken place in this rock and no one can get to that we can't get to them by sea can't get to them by then and then in jebel nafusa in the west of libya so let's let's let's actually characterize things in the proper context there is no . deal making to that incident is that we really believe intervention is failing to protect people that's exactly the point the people. making there saying we are through this intervention but it's not working ok gentlemen i want to washington

let's go and i'm going to you know what let me ask my guest in washington here the logic of this intervention here it's not working so do we go down the slippery path of higher higher. military campaign air campaign eventually a ground campaign i mean the thing in the world that what's wrong with this intervention is that when the first missile was fired the west decided a side in a civil war in this is going to turn into a quagmire sooner or later and a lot of people no matter what you do are going to die. yes the first the united states was very reluctant to intervene militarily and then the united states made very clear that no u.s. soldier will set foot in libya in this intervention because of course there is the memories of what happened in iraq and as soon as possible the united states try to involve other countries and it was only under the cover of the united nations that the united states interfere interfere however we have to always remember that betty

is one of the most brutal dictator on earth and that he is ready to sacrifice maybe half the libyan people just to stay in office yes the international community welcomed him in later years which was a very disturbing thing because he's an international terrorist is one of the most brutal dictators and we forget about the libyan people and the signal and the signs that they have been sending to the world the simple fact that they are using the old flag of libya and this flag is no coincidence it was the flag created in one thousand nine hundred eighty one after the creation of the first libyan constitution that actually created the country and it signals to things do unity of the libyan people that there's no division and also the long being for a modern constitution this is what it represent they are signaling this to themselves and to the world and the international community should do whatever it can to support the libyan pro-democracy forces and they'll be establish

a democratic and for john i agree that there are risks because a lot of the people who are involved there are for america that few people and our know there are crowds and that's why the international community should continue accompany a political process not only a military process until we make sure this revolution is not high to be perpetual are going to go on for a long time ok despond i have to jump in after a short break we'll continue our discussion on intervention steve harvey. and you can. i.

just see the british.

economy. live. live. live. but first let's see what russians think about this issue that. is there a standard for interventions and is this even possible according to president obama the u.s. and its pale eyes took military action in libya to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe but many wonder which humanitarian crisis justify interventions the russian public opinion research center asked citizens what position russia should take regarding the recent events in libya fifty six percent

say russia should not get involved eighteen percent believe it's necessary to influence so that a dialogue between rebels and government power is launched eleven percent up for supporting rebels and six percent for back think about it nevertheless the message from pain directed against libya is not bringing about a political outcome thus far. ok john i'm going to go to you in london i'm an eternal skeptic about everything it seems like these days it seems to me that libya is really a sideshow here it is a experimenting with interventions in the laboratory is libya. the u.s. well can walk away at some point these people fight it out among themselves or whatever ok i don't i see no altruism in the foreign policy of the u.s. right now so what my give my thesis this is contested grounds without public

consulting public opinion at home you go after iran and go after syria go after north korea or anybody else big crosses the there is of the western powers when you think about that thesis because we're just getting people ready for more intervention we have to stop these regimes because they might do something. yeah well i think i think when you listen closely to the descriptions of what was inside push administration about whether or not to do this two things are very very clear firstly they were jammed up by the failures in afghanistan and iraq as a result the scale of opposition among the public in this country in the united states and so forth of these military adventures and it seems that the kind of intervention that they wanted was brief no troops on the ground which would reestablish should the political validity of the argument for humanitarian

intervention which was basically a busted argument after afghanistan and iraq so yes i think they're reestablishing that argument for use not just in libya but on any and every future occasion where they feel it might be it might be necessary if we remember this was something that was established in course of a lost as an argument in afghanistan and iraq and i believe that this is an attempt to refurbish it but i do think there are genuinely some genuine geo strategic factors. actually although i disagree with analysis mentioned some of them but primarily it's about getting some kind of foothold in the finest moving developments of the arab revolution which completely took the major powers by surprise i mean what do you think about that just getting on the tail end of this year go ahead john you're talking you're done you're talking as if this was free masterminded. and a some kind of an order intervention will intervene in one way or another in some

places do some imperialist their course a master plans for a long term first of all libya i can assure you will serve as a model an example to anybody around the area that would attempt to suppress their people and their brutal fashion maggette that if you regime has you know i am actually. you mean you are rain you surely are you live you are saying that the u.s. didn't simle tameness lee and agree to intervene in libya but also to back the saudi question of the rein in the bahraini revolution but that's what's happening now there's no debate and i have been through this whole entire process. i have lived most of the entire life for the last sixty eight weeks of the revolution in thirty years square so there's no point in lecturing me about your personal participation our participation in korea square. so there's really no point in going down that road ok gentlemen i want to go to washington and i am going to be like i'm going to continue with my cynical other line of argument here. the so-called libyan

democrats are opportunists they're trying to take advantage of american and western powers have been red faced humiliated. seeing their very good decatur friends leave and now they want to show their quote unquote good face and the the opposition to gadhafi which many of them were associated with gadhafi one point time or even. in other groups their opportunists now trying to cash in when you think. yes but if. the international community does not help the pro-democracy forces who will this is i mean we have to look at the arab world as a region and system when the tunisian revolution happened all arabs were tunisians when you gyptian one happened all arabs were gyptian so if we let betty get away with this it will signal to all the other arab dictators that all they have to do to stay in office is to shoot and massacre their populations also for the

intervention of course that didn't go as expected that it's going to be short and brief and then the pro-democracy forces will. take over the country unfortunately the pro-democracy forces seem to be highly organized and also and they're equipped saw the international community had to do something as the international going to so-called international community supported arab dictators for six decades so it is high time that they start switching. camps. also the international community interfered after the demands of the libyan opposition and the arab league which is a very exceptional thing. arab league agrees. calling upon the international community to protect libyan people now of course we are moving to the end zone because as a judge mentioned that as we mentioned it's not as effective so what will be the next step that i would like to know from john if it's not an international

community intervention how do you see the future of libya our diffuser of the relations between death and begin people ok john you want to feel that go ahead. well i entirely support the revolutionary process not told about western intervention is that it's a voting process it's buying a revolution to be honest if the west are kept out both of libya and out of the intervention to cross the revolution in bahrain what we might now be looking at is a victorious revolution in bahrain which would have given enormous heart and enormous sustenance to the libyans themselves to fight on even under the more difficult more difficult circumstances so my argument is about the west clearing out of the entire area and allowing as you quite rightly say what is a paragraph illusionary experience to play out across the region oh my what do you think about that i mean can really terry intervention promote democratic interests in the region or all across the region if we go through and through north africa.

you know you can't really talk in generalities and hypothesis and conspiracies here we have to actually if we look at libya and the subject is libya we have to be much more objective about it the west and the europeans didn't just come to libya because they had plans weeks before months before years ago to come and thirteen we're talking about a human contact catastrophe in the making and some correction i must add is it's not a civil war here looking like you're looking at helpless civilians attacked brutally by a military machine of thirty five hundred ten to one hundred airplanes one hundred some hundreds of the helicopters i mean there is this proportionate. totally disproportionate and you know what i for one person who actually is associated with the libyan opposition and the libyan movement very much appreciate the united states and involvement in this the u.k.

and the europeans i mean they have the ability to intervene they have actually intervened it might have been just a week late if they would like a few days later it would have experienced complete massacres and not going away so omar me ask you this question if you want to go to the united states and nato to continue your country ok what happens if gadhafi forces go into urban areas and stick it out there do you want bombing there to to get them out i mean how far do you want your country. to be liberated to frank your town if you go ahead. there are missed there are unfortunate events that take place or may be taken place now that are not under anyone's control basically the united states u.k. france and the stronger members of nato. or able to avert a massacre in benghazi when i was in benghazi i talked to the people down there i

found out for myself that they talked to some of the soldiers that belonged to get a loyalist and they had given being given a mandate to come to town level the town of nine hundred thousand people literally leveled the town raped the women and and kill every man from eighteen to forty and do you really honestly believe well omar we'll meet i just keep hearing this creep here actually doing we just hear this from people like you ok there is no evidence of this so except for people like you come on programs like mine and say they were going to do this this and this but we never hear from it's never cooperated and i'll sign it again and that's really important here john if i can go to you i mean when the first bomb drops is there any good way out of this mess. no because even if we take it on the on the on the kind of playing field that was talking about if this goes on for a long period of time we will see the same amounts of human casualties we will see

a prolonged period of military the military is going to have people on the problem with that is as we've seen as we've seen in the last couple of days nato has just destroyed the lives of thirteen of the of the revolutionaries outside grader now when we look at afghanistan karzai first of all started off saying oh well that's unfortunate these things happen and then week after week month after month the civilian casualties per build up so that even the pocket administration which invited and celebrated i was put in place in afghanistan because of the invasion is now finds intolerable that this should go on for a decade nobody said at the beginning of the afghan war this is going to last ten years believe me at the end of this even the people who asked them in will be regretting they ask them in because the imperial powers of very very difficult in a gas they sit down at the table but when you're ready to go to bed and was going to leave they don't get up they start raiding your fridge they start looking at

your wallet and they all go are a gentleman on that note here and we have a job in many thanks to my guest today in irvine washington and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here on our team see you next time and remember crossed our borders. to take a. stance. on.

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