you with r.t. live from moscow a recap now of our top stories and french president is facing opposition to his leading role in the intervention in libya as the situation threatens to descend into a stalemate there's a criticism of the. actions of green driven by imperial ambition. nato forces also see their support for as they say they regret their strike which killed several anti-government fighters but still stopped short of offering

a full apology. as u.s. political parties pickering over the new budget credit agencies sound the alarm over the country's bad boring habits saying it's a road straight to bankruptcy. now those are the headlines and my colleague bill dodd will be here in half an hour's time with another. team dissect the worsening western intervention in libya. you. know when welcome to cross talk i'm curious about the logic or gil logic of humanitarian interventions as libya grinds in to still make well outside powers find themselves pulled deeper into this quagmire you such interventions in evidently involve greater military escalation and do interventions we do invasions

. to. discuss the uses in misuses of humanitarian interventions i'm joined by mark torre b. in irvine he's a political analyst and invited to the transitional national council of libya in washington we have holy abaza he's a senior fellow at the foundation for defense of democracies and in london we crossed john reeves he is a national officer of stop the war coalition and another member of our cross talk team yelena hunger are a gentleman says cross talk you can you can jump in anytime you want john i want to go to you how is this humanitarian intervention going in libya and how do you define success how do you define failure when it comes to these kind of endeavors but i think it was always a very risky operation not least because the avatar's purpose through to save the lives of civilians was never going to be easy and it certainly wasn't the main motivation i think the main motivation wasn't the saving of civilian life i think

the foreign powers united states britain france primarily were very much discomfited by the unfolding of the arab revolutions in tunisia and egypt they could see that it was spreading beyond their original countries of success they wanted to go for gold and some control of this process and the fact that the libyan revolution took the form of a civil war gave them the possibility. intervention so i think that's in the past because the reason it wasn't necessary the real motivation if we go to washington if we look at what we just heard from john is is this intervention going as planned or is it going far worse than anyone could have expected when they started out. i think it's going to worse than expected because as we have seen lately. troops loyal to gadhafi are making some gains and they're making it very

difficult for the pro-democracy forces. of course this intervention somehow saved lives because it's got that you had a free hand and thirty benghazi then we would have had massacres far worse than what we see right now but i agree with john that the european nations that interfered. nations that usually supported dictators ship in the southern mediterranean and after to tunisia and egyptian revolution this is when they started to appear pro-democracy so that they can have a place in the new order of the southern mediterranean oh my what do you think about that i mean a lot of people keep using the terms mark recy and since you come from an organization that represents human rights in libya what is the democratic forces in libya right now that justifies this humanitarian quota humanitarian intervention. first of all there is a natural instinct amongst the libyan people especially when you have

a. brutal regime that suppressed people's ability to speak or move and one hand but if you're referring to prospects of democracy in libya i could tell you that my visit last week to the war stronghold the libyan opposition i spent four days and one on one with senior members of the transitional national council i address the gathering and i came back with a very very satisfied feeling that libya is on to a democratic change in a democratic part of me i'm sorry to interrupt you but it looks like this it looks like a civil war it doesn't look like a march for democracy i mean how do you how do you this is a contradiction in terms this is a civil war that is getting worse by the day as we do we're doing this program here the so-called democratic opposition is angry at nato for not bombing enough their

own country here i mean how can we be talking about you know a peaceful democracy when we have a raging civil war you know i think our memories don't serve us well it's only been six and a half weeks it started out as an uprising people rose because of human rights conditions and extreme oppression and being guys here they rose they started to demonstrate peacefully and then next thing the libyan regime came and suppressed it and that tended to suppress that and trust me it was not just rubber bullets or period gas it was bullets literally the size of your arm. really used to explode tanks and it was very horrific pictures we were able to very quickly get those pictures out to the world community. we live in the world and as you very well now. that the terrorism has kids around here and

their government as a whole or is something that the whole entire war does not have been doesn't really want to have you have that iraq so the world there's actually moved and saved lives so i mean if i did it would mean very giving a jump in here john john john john if i was going to go to you i mean if we look at recent memory you could ask he was being brought out of the cold i mean not very long ago at all go ahead john. i think if we look at recent memory we are now again i'm going to go ahead i think we recall i think we recall that these arguments were exactly the same as the arguments used for the invasion of afghanistan and iraq and nobody thinks that what we've got in either place is a model of democracy and the argument that the very language here is that this is it this emblem language to say that the world community there is no world community i'm a citizen in this country my country is at war

a majority of people in the opinion poll don't want to be bombing libya our government and the arms are factors that it's touring the middle east selling weaponry to they want to go to the war to go to war isn't true but there is some sort of christian body it world community that is backing this what is true is that the vast majority of people in the world had a very deep sympathy with the arab revolutions in tunisia in egypt and in libya what they don't want to see is that western intervention causing a transformation in the nature of the libyan revolution so it's now the most pro western people including actually and they are the same people the people who most recently came over from look at that the regime itself who were actually involved in the suppression of their own people for decades before this who are now the interlocutors of the west the managers of military intervention the people who are doing a deal with qatar to export the oil. what they don't want to see you don't want revolution they want to see a genuine revolutionary process

a look on that we saw working its way through introduce you to egypt but really if i go to you in washington a lot more more more more i'm sorry let me turn ok omar jump in and then we'll go to washington go ahead real quick. i'm sorry john in london your analysis is really really. that actual really truth on the ground in libya first of all let me tell you the real justification for and their grandchild in libya the geopolitics of libya are very very important the way it's in north africa very close to europe there are many aspects that the europeans follow him to be very important to the european community that's one to get that he himself the dictator the sole. ruler of libya is someone who no one on the whole entire planet is fond or lights or wants to be with them the third dimension which is very very important is that he didn't he didn't stop at anything this man

would have literally killed hundreds of thousands of people it may sound exaggerated but trust me on this one right now as we speak there are massacres taken place in misrata and no one can get to them can't get to them by sea can't get to them by then and then in jebel nafusa in the west of libya so let's let's let's actually characterize things in the proper context there is no. as you make into that incident is that we really feel the intervention is failing to protect people that's exactly the point that people. make they're saying we asked for this intervention but it's not working ok gentlemen i want to go to washington let's go i could hear you know what let me ask my guest in washington here the logic of this intervention here it's not working so do we go down the slippery path of higher higher into. military campaign air campaign eventually a ground campaign i mean the thing in the world that what's wrong with this

intervention is that when the first missile was fired the west decided a side in a civil war in this is going to turn into a quagmire sooner or later and a lot of people no matter what you do are going to die. yes the first the united states was very reluctant to intervene militarily and then the united states made very clear that no u.s. folder will set foot in libya in this intervention because of course there is the memories of what happened in iraq and as soon as possible the united states tried to involve other countries and it was only under the cover of the united nations that the united states interfere interfered however we have to always remember that deathy is one of the most brutal dictator on earth and that is ready to sacrifice maybe have the libyan people just to stay in office yes the international community welcomed him later a year which was a very disturbing thing because he's an international terrorist he's is

a one of the most ruthless dictators and we forget about the libyan people and the signal and the signs that they have been sending to the world the simple fact that they are using the old flag of libya and this flag is no coincidence it was the flag created in one nine hundred fifty one after the creation of the first libyan constitution that actually created the country and it signals two things the unity of the libyan people that there is no division and also the longing for a modern constitution this is what it represent they are signaling this to themselves and to the world and the international community should do whatever it can to support the libyan pro-democracy forces and build a establish a democratic and for john i agree that there are risks because a lot of the people who are involved are for america that few people and our nor their markets and that's why the international community should continue our company a political process not only

a military process until we make sure this revolution is the way to be perpetual are going to go on for a long time ok this morning i have to jump in after a short break we'll continue our discussion on intervention steve harvey. live. listen to. live.

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welcome back to crossfire computable about the tree mind you were talking about the boom and bust of interventions plug can see the slump. but first let's see what russians think about this issue that. is there a standard for interventions and is this even possible according to president obama the u.s. and its allies took military action in libya to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe but when i wonder which humanitarian crisis justify interventions the russian public opinion research center asked citizens what position russia should take regarding the recent events in libya fifty six percent say russia should not get involved eighteen percent believe it's necessary to influence gaddafi so there to dialogue between rebels and government power is launched eleven percent opt for supporting rebels and six percent for backing could

up his side nevertheless the massive campaign directed against libya is not bringing about a political outcome that's far. ok john i'm going to go to you in london i'm an eternal skeptic about everything it seems like these days it seems to me that libya is really a side show here it is a experimenting with interventions in the laboratory is libya. the u.s. world can walk away at some point these people fight it out among themselves or whatever ok i add i see no altruism in the foreign policy of the u.s. right now so my i'll give my thesis this is to test the grounds without public consulting public opinion at home to go after iran and go after syria go after north korea or anybody else crosses the there is of the western powers when you think about that thesis because we're just getting people ready for more

interventions we have to stop these regimes because they might do something. yeah well i think i think when you listen closely to the descriptions of what was inside the bush administration about whether or not to do this it's two things are very very clear firstly they were jammed up by the failures in afghanistan and iraq by as a result the scale of opposition among the public in this country in the united states and so forth to these military adventures and it seems that the kind of intervention that they wanted was brief no troops on the ground but which would reestablish the political validity of the argument for humanitarian intervention which was basically a busted argument after afghanistan and iraq so yes i think they're reestablishing that argument for use not just in libya plus on any and every future occasion where they feel it might be it might be necessary if we remember this was something that

was established in kosovo last as an argument in afghanistan and iraq and i believe that this is an attempt to refurbish it but i do think there are genuinely some genuine geo strategic factors. actually although i disagree with analyses mentions some of them but primarily it's about getting some kind of foothold in the fyrst moving people of most of the arab revolution which completely took the major powers to surprise when what do you think about that just getting on the tail end of this year go ahead john you're talking you're done you're talking as if this was free masterminded. in a some kind of an order to intervention intervene in one way or another in some places do some imperialist course some master plans for a long term first of all libya i can assure you will serve as a model an example to anybody around the area that would attempt to suppress their

people and their brutal fashion they get that the regime has i mean you know i am absolutely. you mean you are a man you surely have lived you are saying that the u.s. didn't simle timelessly agree to intervene in libya but also to back the society crushing of the rein in the bahraini revolution but that's what's happening now there's no intervention i read through the sol entire process. i have lived most of the american astronauts sixty eight minutes of the revolution in your square so there's no point in lecturing me about your personal participation i participated in three square eighteen days so there's really no point in going down that road ok gentlemen i want to go to washington i'm going to be honest i'm going to continue with my cynical other line of argument here. the so-called libyan democrats are opportunists they're cheap they're trying to take advantage of american and western powers that have been red faced humiliated. seeing their very good dictator friends we and now they want to show their quote unquote good face and the because of the

opposition to gadhafi which many of them were associated with gadhafi one point time or even. in other groups there are opportunities now trying to cash in. yes but if. the international community does not help pro-democracy forces who will this is i mean we have to look at the arab world as a region and system when the tunisian revolution happened all arabs were tunisians when the egyptian one happened all arabs were gyptian so if we let their feet get away with this it will signal to all the other arab dictators that all they have to do to stay in office is to shoot and massacre their populations also for the intervention of course they didn't go as expected that it's going to be short and brief and then the pro-democracy forces will. take over the country and fortunately the pro-democracy forces seem to be highly organized and also and

they're equipped. the international community had to do something as the international because the so-called international community supported arab dictators for sixty cade's saw it is how they start switching. camps. also the international community interfered asked their demands of the libyan opposition and the arab league which is a very exceptional thing. league agrees on calling upon the international community to protect libyan people now of course we are moving to get known because as john mentioned and as we mentioned it's not as effective so what will be the next step that i would like to know from john if it's not an international community intervention how do you see the future of libya or diffuser of the relations between gaddafi and then again people ok john you want to feel that go ahead. i entirely support the process my point about western intervention is that it's

subverting the process it's buying a revolution to be honest if the west had kept out both of libya and out of the intervention to cross the revolution in bahrain what we might now be looking at is a victorious revolution in bahrain which would have given enormous heart and enormous sustenance to the libyans themselves to fight on even under the more difficult more difficult circumstances so my argument is about the west clearing out of the entire area and allowing as you quite rightly say what is a paragraph illusionary experience to play out across the region on my what do you think about the enemy can military intervention promote democratic interests in the region all across the region if we go through to north africa. you know you can't really talk in generalities and hypothesis and conspiracies here we have to actually if we look at libya and the subject is libya we have to be much more objective about it the west and the europeans didn't just come to libya because

they had plans weeks before months before years ago to come and curvy and we're talking about a human contact catastrophe in the making and some correction i must add is it's not a civil war here look at what you're looking at help us armless civilians at tact brutally and military machine of thirty five hundred. to one hundred airplanes hundreds and hundreds of helicopters i mean there's this proportion that. they're totally disproportionate and you know what i for one person who actually is associated with the libyan opposition and the libyan movement very much appreciate the united states and involvement in this the u.k. and the europeans i mean they have that ability to intervene better actually intervene it might have been just a week late if they would like a few days later we would have experienced complete massacres and not going away so omar and i ask you this question you want. the united states and nato to continue

bombing your country ok what happens if gadhafi forces go into urban areas and stick it out there do you want bombing there to to get them out i mean how far do you want your country to give you know to be literally and frankly john if you go ahead. there are missed there are unfortunate events that take place or may be taken place now that are not under anyone's control basically the united states u.k. france and the stronger members of nato. or able to avert a massacre in benghazi when i was in benghazi i talked to the people down there i found out for myself that they talked to some of the soldiers that belong together if you are a loyalist and they had given being given a mandate to come to town level the town of nine hundred thousand people literally leveled the rate they were women and and kill every man from eighteen to forty

and do you really honestly believe that all men are we i just keep hearing this crazy only doing we just hear this from people like you ok there is no evidence of this except for people like you come on programs like mine and say they were going to do business in this but we never hear from which never cooperated and i'll sign it again and that's really important john if i can go to you i mean when the first bomb dropped is there any good way out of this mess. you know because even if we take it on the on the on the kind of playing field put on mars talking about if this goes on for a long period of time we will see the same amounts of human casualties we will see a prolonged period they are going to treat them well the military going to have people on the problem with that is as we've seen as we've seen in the last couple of days nato has just destroyed the lives of thirteen of the of the revolutionaries

outside break it now when we look at going to stand karzai first of all started off saying oh well that's unfortunate these things happen and then week after week month after month the civilian casualties build up so that even the pocket administration which invited and celebrated and was put in place in afghanistan because of the invasion he's now finds it intolerable that this should go on for a decade nobody said at the beginning of the afghan war this is going to last ten years please me at the end of this even the people who asked them in will be regretting they asked them in because the imperial powers of very very typical dinner guests they sit down at the table but when you're ready to go to bed and was going to leave they don't get up they start raiding your fridge they start looking at your wallet and they all go. in on that note here i'm going to jump in many thanks to my guest today in irvine washington and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here on our t.v. see you next time and remember rostock refuse.

to take a. stance. on .