wealthy british style is an expert on. the. markets why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy is cause a report on. international news now live from the russian capital with you twenty four hours a day top stories now that the french president is facing opposition to his leading role in the intervention in libya as the situation threatens to descend into a stalemate there's criticism that nicolas sarkozy's actions have been driven by imperial ambition. a happy ending for russian journalists released unharmed after spending hours in the hands of libyan rebels it's the first time as the government forces have taken any measures against the media meanwhile nato says it regrets

a botched airstrike which killed several rebels. as u.s. political parties keep bickering over the new budget credit agencies sell the a lot of the country's bad boring habits saying it's a road straight to bankruptcy. i'll be back with the latest news in about from now first though it's crosstalk and some straight talking on the wisdom or otherwise of the western intervention in libya that's next. know in a welcome to cross talk i'm curious about the logic or kill logic of humanitarian interventions as libya grinds into stalemate well outside powers find themselves fall deeper into this quagmire you such interventions in evidently involve greater

military escalation and do interventions we do invasions. to discuss the uses in misuses of humanitarian interventions i'm joined by mark tor b. in irvine he's a political analyst and invites her to the transitional national council of libya in washington we have her really abaza he's a senior fellow at the foundation for defense of democracies and in london we crossed to john reeves he is a national officer of stop the war coalition and another member of our cross talk team yelena hunger are a gentleman who's cross-talk you can you can jump in anytime you want john i want to go to you how is this humanitarian intervention going in libya and how do you define success how do you define failure when it comes to these kind of endeavors but i think it was always a very risky operation not least because the avatar of purpose through to save the lives of civilians was never going to be easy and it certainly wasn't the main

motivation i think the main motivation wasn't the saving of civilian life i think that the foreign powers united states britain france primarily were very much discomfit by the unfolding of the arab revolutions in tunisia and egypt they could see that it was spreading beyond their original countries of success they wanted to go for gold and some control of this process and the fact that the libyan revolution took the form of a civil war gave them the possibility. interventions i think in the past given reason it wasn't necessary the real motivation if we go to washington if we look at what we just heard from john is is this intervention going as planned or is it going far worse than anyone could have expected when they started out. i think it's going to worse than expected because as we have seen lately the. troops loyal to

gadhafi making some gains and they're making it very difficult for the pro-democracy forces. of course this intervention somehow saved lives because it's got that he had a free hand and to benghazi then we would have had far worse than what we see right now but i agree with john that the european nations that interfered are the european nations that usually supported dictatorship in the southern mediterranean and after the tunisian and egyptian revolution this is when they started to appear pro-democracy so that they can have a place in the new order of the southern mediterranean oh my what do you think about that i mean a lot of people keep using the terms of mockery see and said you come from an organization that represents human rights in libya what is the democratic forces in libya right now that justifies this humanitarian quote unquote humanitarian intervention. first of all there is

a natural instinct amongst the libyan people especially when you have a. brutal regime that suppress people's ability to speak or move and one hand but if you're referring to prospects of democracy in libya i can tell you that my visit last week to the board stronghold the libyan opposition i spent four days in the one on one with senior members of the transitional national council i address the gathering and i came back with a very very satisfied feeling that libya is on to a democratic change in a democratic part of me i'm sorry to interrupt you but it looks like this it looks like a civil war it doesn't look like a march for democracy i mean how do you how do you this is a contradiction in terms this is a civil war that is getting worse by the day as we do we're doing this program here

the so-called democratic opposition is angry at nato for not bombing enough their own country here i mean how can we be talking about you know a peaceful democracy when we have a raging civil war you know i think our memories don't serve us well it's only been six and a half weeks it started out as an uprising people rose because of human rights conditions and stream oppression and being guys here they rose they started to demonstrate peacefully and the next thing the libyan regime came and suppressed it and that tended to suppress that and trust me it was not just rubber bullets or tear gas there was bullets literally the size of your arm. really used to explode tanks and it was very horrific pictures we were able to very quickly get those pictures out to the world community. we live in the world and as you very

well now. it's ariel regime is kids around here and their government as a whore is something that the whole entire war does not have been doesn't really want to have we had that you're all so the world there's actually moved and saved lives i mean going on mars i did a very good thing in jumping here and john john john john if i was going to you i mean if we look at recent memory capacity was being brought out of the cold i mean not very long ago at all go ahead. i think if we look at recent memory we don't know again obviously. i think we recall i think we recall that these arguments were exactly the same as the arguments used for the invasion of afghanistan and iraq and nobody thinks that what we've got in either place is a model of democracy and the argument that the very language here is is it is set is it dissembling language to say that the world community there is no world

community i'm a citizen in this country my country is at war a majority of people in the opinion poll don't want to be bombing libya our government and the arms by a factor is that it's touring the middle east saudi weaponry to they want to go to the war to go to war isn't true but there is some sort of this involved world community that is backing this what is true is that the vast majority of people in the world had a very deep sympathy with the arab revolutions in tunisia in egypt and in libya what they don't want to see is that western intervention causing a transformation in the nature of the libyan revolution so it's now the most pro western people including actually and they are the same people and the people who most recently came over from look at that the regime itself who were actually involved in the suppression of their own people for decades before this who are now the interlocutors of the west the managers of military intervention the people are doing a deal with qatar to export the oil. what they don't want to see is

a bolt revolution i want to see genuine revolutionary process of the calling that we saw working its way through introduce you to egypt but if i go to you in washington and it's more more more more i'm sorry let me turn ok omar jump in and then we'll go to washington go ahead real quick. yeah. i'm sorry john in london your analysis is really really. that actual really truth on the ground in libya first of all let me tell you the real justification for and their branches in libya the geopolitics of libya are very very important the way it's in north africa very close to europe there are many aspects that the europeans follow and to be very important to the european community that's one to get there if he himself the dictator the sole. ruler of libya is someone who no one on the whole entire planet is fond or likes or wants to be with and the third

dimension which is very very important is that he didn't he didn't stop at anything this man would have literally killed hundreds of thousands of people it may sound exaggerated but trust me on this one right now as we speak there are massacres taken place in this route and no one can get to that we can't get to them by sea can't get to them by then and then in jebel nafusa in the west of libya so that's that's it's actually characterize things in the proper context there is no hope in this area because. you're making that incident is that what we are willing to leave to function is failing to protect people that's exactly the point the people. are saying we asked for this intervention but it's not working ok gentlemen i want to go to washington let's go i'm going to you know let me ask my guest in washington here the logic of this intervention here it's not working so do we go down the slippery path of higher higher into. military campaign air campaign eventually

a ground campaign i mean the thing at the wall that what's wrong with this intervention is that when the first missile was fired the west decided a side in a civil war in this is could it turn into a quagmire sooner or later and a lot of people no matter what you do are going to die. yes at first the united states was very reluctant to intervene militarily and then the united states made very clear that no u.s. soldier will set foot in libya in this intervention because of course there is the memories of what happened in iraq and as soon as possible the united states try to involve other countries and it was only under the cover of the united nations that the united states interfere interfere in our work or we have to always remember that deathy is one of the most brutal dictator on earth and that he is ready to sacrifice maybe of the libyan people just to stay in office and yes the international community welcomed him in later years which was

a very disturbing thing because he's an international terrorist he's. one of the most ruthless dictators and we forget about the libyan people and the signal and the signs that they have been sending to the world the simple fact that they are using the old flag of libya and this flag is no coincidence it was the flag created in one thousand nine hundred eighty one after the creation of the first libyan constitution that actually created the country and it signals two things the unity of the libyan people that is not division and also the longing for a modern constitution this is what it represent they are signaling this to themselves and to the world and the international community should do whatever it can to support the libyan pro-democracy forces and build a stablish a democratic and for john i agree that there are risks because a lot of the people who are involved are for america that he people and our northern rock rats and that's why the international community should continue our

company a political process not only a military process until we make sure this revolution is the way to be perpetual are going to go on for a long time ok just want to have to jump in after a short break we'll continue our discussion on intervention steve harvey. and you think it's going to.

just. chosen from among many. he was given a clear cut mission. mission he successfully accomplished. became the first. of the soviet union one of the best known persons in the world. his thoughts were focused on. could he ever think that his life's work would cost him his life.

and in those few seconds. seal the barrels still live. picture. we're talking about the food and bust of interventions. if you. live. but first let's see what russians think about this issue that. is there a standard for interventions and is this even possible according to president obama the u.s. and its allies took military action in libya to prevent

a humanitarian catastrophe but when i wonder which humanitarian crisis justify interventions the russian public opinion research center asked citizens what position russia should take regarding the recent events in libya to six percent say russia should not get involved eighteen percent believe it's necessary to influence so that a dialogue between rebels and government power is launched eleven percent up for supporting rebels and six percent fall back into his side nevertheless the message pane directed against libya is not bringing about a political outcome thus far. ok john i'm going to go to you in london i'm an eternal skeptic about everything it seems like these days it seems to me that libya is really a sideshow here it is a experimenting with interventions in the laboratory is libya. the

u.s. what can walk away at some point when what these people find out among themselves or whatever ok i add i see no altruism in the foreign policy of the us right now so when my i'll give my thesis this is to test the grounds for the public consulting public opinion at home to go after iran and go after syria go after north korea or anybody else that crosses the there is of the western powers when you think about that thesis because we're just getting people ready for more interventions we have to stop these regimes because they might do something. yeah well i think i think when you listen closely to the descriptions of what was inside the bush administration about whether or not to do this two things are very very clear firstly they were jammed up by the failures in afghanistan and iraq by as a result the scale of opposition among the public in this country in the united

states and so forth to these military adventures and it seems that the kind of intervention that they wanted was brief and no troops on the ground but which would reestablish should lead political validity of the argument for humanitarian intervention which was basically a busted argument after afghanistan and iraq so yes i think there reestablishing that argument for use not just in libya but on any and every future occasion where they feel it might be it might be necessary if we remember this was something that was established in kosovo lost as an argument in afghanistan and iraq and i believe that this is an attempt to refurbish it but i do think there are genuinely some genuine geo strategic factors. more actually although i disagree with analysis mentioned some of them but primarily it's about getting some kind of foothold in the finest moving developments of the arab revolution which completely took the

major powers by surprise i mean what do you think about that just getting on the tail end of this year go ahead john you're talking you're done you're talking as if this was free masterminded. in a some kind of an order to intervene in a very lean in one way or another in some places do some imperialist course some master plans for long term first of all libya i can assure you will serve as a model an example to anybody around the area that would tend to suppress their people and their brutal fashion and they get that the regime has i mean you know i am absolutely. but restoring a heritage you mean you are a man you surely have lived you are saying that the u.s. didn't simle timelessly agree to intervene in libya but also to back the saudi question of the rein in the bahraini revolution but that's what's happening now there's no intervention i read through this whole entire process. i have lived with the solidarity for all our lives the eighteen weeks of the revolution into your

square so there's no point in lecturing me about your personal participation i participated in three a square eighteen days so there's really no point in going down that road ok gentlemen i want to go to washington i'm going to be continue with my cynical other line of argument here. the so-called libyan democrats are opportunists they're trying to take advantage of american and western powers that have been bred humiliated. seeing their very good dictator friends leave and now they want to show their quote unquote good face and the the opposition to gadhafi which many of them were associated with gadhafi one point time or even. in other groups there are opportunities now trying to cash in when you think. yes but if. the international community does not help pro-democracy forces who will this is i mean we have to look at the arab world as a region and system when the tunisian revolution happened all arabs were tunisians

when you gyptian one happened all arabs were gyptian so if we let their feet get away with this it will signal to all the other arab dictator is that all they have to do to stay in office is to shoot and massacre their populations also for the intervention of course they didn't go as expected that it's going to be short and brief and then the pro-democracy forces will. take over the country unfortunately the pro-democracy forces seem to be highly organized and also and they're equipped saw the international community had to do something as the international could the so-called international community supported arab dictators for sixty kids so it is how they start switching. camps also the international community interfered after didn't end of the libyan opposition and the arab league which is very exceptional playing. the arab league agrees on calling upon the international community to protect libyan people now of

course we are moving to the end known because as the judge mentioned as we mentioned it's not as effective so what will be the next step that i would like to know from john if it's not an international community intervention how do you see the future of libya or diffuser of the relations between gaddafi and billion people ok john you want to feel that go ahead. well i entirely support the new process not all about western intervention is that it's subverting that process it's buying a revolution to be honest if the west is kept out both of libya and out of the intervention to cross the revolution in bahrain what we might now be looking at is a victorious revolution in bahrain which would have given enormous heart and enormous sustenance to the libyans themselves to fight on even under the more difficult more difficult circumstances so my argument is about the west clearing

out of the entire area and allowing as you quite rightly say what is a paragraph illusionary experience to play out across the region oh my what do you think about that i mean can military intervention promote democratic interests in the region you know all across the region if we go through our two north africa. you know you can't really talk in generalities and hypothesis and conspiracies here we have to actually if we look at libya and the subject is libya we have to be much more objective about it the west and the europeans didn't just come to libya because they had plans weeks before months before years ago to come and thirteen we're talking about a human contact a catastrophe in the making and some correction i must add is it's not a civil war here look at what you're looking at how it was civilians attacked brutally by a military machine a thirty five hundred ten to one hundred airplanes hundreds and hundreds of the helicopters i mean there is this proportion that. they're totally

disproportionate and you know what i for one person who actually is associated with the libyan opposition and the libyan movement very much appreciate the united states and involvement in this the u.k. and the europeans i mean they have the ability to intervene bit of actually intervene it might have been just a week late if they were like a few days later we would have experienced complete massacres and not the way so omar anybody ask you this question you want to go to the united states and nato to continue bombing your country ok what happens if gadhafi forces go into urban areas and stick it out there do you want bombing there to get them out i mean how far do you want your country to give you know to be literal and frankly go ahead. there are missed there are unfortunate events that take place or may be taken place

now that are not under anyone's control basically the united states u.k. france and the stronger members of nato. or able to avert a massacre in benghazi when i was in benghazi i talked to the people down there i found out from myself that they talked to some of the soldiers that belong together if you are loyalist and they had given being given a mandate to come to town level the town of nine hundred thousand people literally leveled the town rape the women and and kill every man from eighteen to forty and do you really honestly believe world where are we i just keep hearing this creepier only when we just hear this from people like you ok there is no evidence of this so except for people like you come on programs like mine and say they we're going to do this this and this but we never hear from which never cooperate and i'll sign it again and that's really important here john if i can go to you i mean when the first bomb drops is there any good way out of this mess. no because

even if we take it on the on the on the kind of playing field the omar's talking about if this goes on for a long period of time we will see the same amounts of human casualties we will see a prolonged period of military to the military going to have people in the problem with that is as we've seen as we've seen in the last couple of days nato has just destroyed the lives of thirteen of the of the revolutionaries outside reagan now when we look at the honest on karzai first of all started off saying oh well that's unfortunate these things happen and then a week after week month after month the civilian casualties per build up so that even the puppet administration which invited and celebrated i was put in place in afghanistan because of the invasion is now finds intolerable that this should go on for a decade nobody said at the beginning of the afghan war this is going to last ten

years believe me at the end of this even the people who ask them in will be regretting they ask them in because the imperial powers of very very difficult dinner guests they sit down at the table but when you're ready to go to bed and ask them to leave they don't get up they start raiding your fridge they start looking at your wallet and they don't go gentlemen on that note here i'm going to jump in many thanks to my guest today in irvine washington and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here on r t see you next time and remember prost are close . to getting. started. on.

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