culture is that so much a definitely a huge musician find the mark of the logic or illogic of humanitarian intervention as would be uprising to stalemate well outside powers find themselves pulled deeper into this.

wealthy british style. market why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy with much cause or a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune in to the reports on r.g.p. . you can see. below in welcome to cross talk i'm curious about the logic or kill logic of humanitarian interventions as libya grinds into stalemate well outside powers find themselves

fold deeper into this quagmire do such interventions in evitable involve greater military escalation and do interventions lead to invasions. to discuss the uses in misuses of humanitarian interventions i'm joined by omar tora b. in irvine he is a political analyst and an advisor to the transitional national council of libya in washington we have who really are as a he is a senior fellow at the foundation for defense of democracies and in london we crossed to john reeves he is a national officer of stop the war coalition and another member of our cross talk team yelena hunger are a gentleman who's crossed you can jump in anytime you want john i want to go to you how is this humanitarian intervention going in libya and how do you define success how do you define failure when it comes to these kind of endeavors but i think it was always a very risky operation not least because the hard purpose through to save the lives

of civilians was never going to be easy and it certainly wasn't the main motivation i think the main motivation wasn't the saving of civilian life i think the foreign powers united states britain france primarily were very much discounted probably unfolding of the arab revolutions in tunisia and egypt they could see that it was spreading beyond their original countries of success they wanted to go for gold and some control of this process and the fact that the libyan revolution took the form of a civil war gave them the possibility of intervention so i think in the past we've given reason it wasn't necessary the real motivation if we go to washington if we look at what we just heard from john is is this intervention going as planned or is it going far worse than anyone could have expected when they started out. i think

it's going to worse than expected because as we have seen lately. troops loyal to the making some gains and they're making it very difficult for the pro-democracy forces but. of course this intervention somehow saved lives because if the death he had a free hand and entered benghazi then we would have had a massacre is far worse than what we see right now but i agree with john that the european nations that interfered are the european nations that usually supported dictatorship in the southern mediterranean and after the tunisian and egyptian revolution this is when they started to appear pro-democracy so that they can have a place in the new order of the southern mediterranean oh my what do you think about that i mean a lot of people keep using the terms to mark receive and you come from of the organization that represents human rights in libya what is the democratic forces in

libya right now that justifies this humanitarian quote unquote humanitarian intervention. first of all there is a natural instinct amongst the libyan people especially when you have a. brutal regime that suppress people's ability to speak or move and one hand but if you're referring to the spot prospects of democracy in libya i can tell you that my visit last week to the board stronghold the libyan opposition i spent four days of being one on one with senior members of the transitional national council i address the gathering and i came back with a very very satisfied feeling that libya is on to a democratic change in a democratic party i'm sorry to interrupt you but it looks like this it looks like a civil war it doesn't look like a march for democracy i mean how do you how do you this is

a contradiction in terms this is a civil war that is getting worse by the day as we do we're doing this program here the so-called democratic opposition is angry at nato for not bombing enough their own country here i mean how can we be talking about you know a peaceful democracy when we have a raging civil war well you know i think our memories don't serve us well it's only been six and a half weeks it started out as an uprising people rose because of human rights conditions and extreme oppression and being guys here they rose they started to demonstrate peacefully and the next thing the libyan regime came and suppressed it and that tended to suppress that and trust me it was not just rubber bullets or tear gas there was bullets literally the size of your arm bullets that really used to explode tanks and it was very horrific the pictures we were

able to very quickly get those pictures out to the world community. we live in the world and as you very well now get that the. aerial regime is kids around here and their government as a whole is something that the whole entire war does not have anywhere doesn't really want they have got that we're all so the world there's actually moved and save. lives so i mean i'm very aware if i did something very good i mean jump in here and john john john if i was going to you i mean if we look at recent memory he was being brought out of the cold i mean not very long ago it all go ahead john. i think if we look at recent memory we are in again. john go ahead i think we recall i think we recall that these arguments were exactly the same as they are going to use for the invasion of afghanistan and iraq and nobody thinks that what we've got in either place is

a model of democracy and the argument at the very language here is to say is it dissembling language to say that the world community there is no world community i'm a citizen in this country my country is at war a majority of people in the opinion poll don't want to be bombing libya our government and the arms fire fighters that it's in the middle east saudi weaponry to they want to go to the war go to war isn't true but there is some sort of this embodied world community that is backing this what is true is that the vast majority of people in the world had a very people sympathy with the arab revolutions in tunisia in egypt and in libya what they don't want to see is that the western intervention causing a transformation in the nature of the libyan revolution so it's now the most pro western people including actually and they are the same people the people who most recently came over from look at the regime itself who are actually involved in the suppression of their own people for decades before this who are now the interlocutors of the west the managers of military intervention the people who are

doing a deal with qatar to export the oil. what they don't want to see is a bolt revolution they won't see a genuine revolutionary process of the calling that we saw working its way through eternity and egypt but really if i go to you in washington and it's more more more more i'm sorry let me august third ok omar jump in and then we'll go to washington go ahead real quick. yeah yeah i'm sorry john in london your analysis is really really. that actual really true on the ground in libya first of all let me tell you the real justification for and their bench and in libya the geopolitics of libya are very very important the way it's in north africa very close to europe there are many aspects that the europeans follow and to be very important to the european community that's one to get that if he himself the dictator the sole. ruler of libya is someone who no one on the whole entire planet is fond

or lifestyle wants to be with and the third dimension which is very very important is that he didn't he didn't stop at anything this man would have literally killed hundreds of thousands of people it may sell and exaggerated but trust me on this one right now as we speak there are massacres taken place in this route and no one can get to that you can't get to them by sea can't get to them by then and then in jebel nafusa in the west of libya so let's let's let's actually characterize things in the proper context there is no. as you are making to mention it is that we really believe intervention is failing to protect people that's exactly the point the people. make they're saying we asked for this intervention but it's not working ok gentlemen i want to go to washington let's go and i'm going to you know what let me ask my guest in washington here the logic of this intervention here

it's not working so do we go down the slippery path of higher higher. military campaign air campaign eventually a ground campaign i mean the thing in the world that what's wrong with this intervention is that when the first missile was fired the west decided a side in a civil war in this is put it turned into a quagmire sooner or later and a lot of people no matter what you do are going to die. yes the first the united states was very liked and to intervene militarily and then the united states made very clear that no u.s. soldier will set foot in libya in this intervention because of course there is the memories of what happened in iraq and as soon as possible the united states try to involve other countries and it was only under the cover of the united nations that the united states interfere interfered however we have to always remember that deathy is one of the most brutal dictator on earth and that he's ready to sacrifice

maybe half the libyan people just to stay in office yes the international community will come to him in later years which was a very disturbing thing because he is an international terrorist he is a good one of the most brutal dictators and we forget about the libyan people and the signal and the signs that they have been sending to the world the simple fact that they are using the old flag of libya and this flag is no coincidence it was the flight created in one nine hundred fifty one after the creation of the first libyan constitution that actually created the country and it signals to things do unity of the libyan people that there's no division and also the longing for a modern constitution this is what it represent they are signaling this to themselves and to the world and the international community should do whatever it can to support the libyan pro-democracy forces and till they establish a democratic and for john i agree that there are risks because

a lot of the people who are involved are for america that few people and are no there are crowds and that's why the international community should continue accompany a political process not only a military process until we make sure this revolution is going to be perpetual are going to go on for a long time ok despond i have to jump in after a short break we'll continue our discussion on intervention steve harvey. live. a telemarketer broadcasting live from washington d.c. coming up today on the big picture.

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mum. morning's today violence is once again flared up look these are the images the world has been seeing from the streets and chatted that some up for asians are relieved a plug. plug in the first slug of the luck welcome back to crossfire computor lavelle three minute we're talking about the boom and bust of interventions plug the beasts plug. but first let's see what russians think about this issue and. is there

a standard for interventions and is this even possible according to president obama the u.s. and its allies took military action in libya to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe but many wonder which humanitarian crisis justify intervention has the russian public opinion research center asked citizens what position russia should take regarding the recent events in libya fifty six percent say russia should not get involved eighteen percent believe it's necessary to influence gadhafi so that a dialogue between rebels and current power is launched eleven percent up for supporting rebels and six percent for backing could at his side nevertheless the massive campaign directed against libya is not bringing about a political outcome thus far. ok john i'm going to go to you in london i'm an eternal skeptic about everything it seems like these days it seems to me that libya

is really a side show here it is see experimenting with interventions in the laboratory is libya. the u.s. world can walk away at some point people find out among themselves or whatever ok i add i see no altruism in the foreign policy of the u.s. right now so my give my thesis this is to test the grounds without public consulting public opinion at home to go after iran and go after syria go after north korea or anybody else big crosses the the hairs of the western powers when you think about that thesis because we're just getting people ready for more interventions we have to stop these regimes because they might do something. yeah well i think i think when you listen closely to the descriptions of what was inside the bush administration about whether or not to do this two things are very very clear firstly they were jammed up by the failures in afghanistan and iraq by as

a result the scale of opposition among the public in this country in the united states and so forth to these military adventures and it seems that the kind of intervention that they wanted was brief no troops on the ground but which would reestablish the political validity of the argument for humanitarian intervention which was basically a busted argument after afghanistan and iraq so yes i think they're reestablishing that argument for use not just in libya but us on any and every future occasion where they feel it might be it might be necessary if we remember this was something that was established in kosovo lost as an argument in afghanistan and iraq and i believe that this is an attempt to to refurbish it but i do think there are genuinely some genuine geo strategic factors. are actually although i disagree with

analysis mentioned some of them but primarily it's about getting some kind of foothold in the fast moving developments of the arab revolution which completely took the major powers to our surprise when what do you think about that just getting on the tail end of this year go ahead john you're talking you're done you're talking as if this was free masterminded. in a some kind of an order to intervention intervene in one way or another in some places do some imperialist course some master plans for long term first of all libya i can assure you will serve as a model an example to anybody around the area that would have temper suppress their people and their brutal fashion they get that the regime has i mean you know i am actually. you mean you are a you surely are a little you are saying that the u.s. didn't simle timelessly agree to intervene in libya but also to back the society crushing of the rein in the bahraini revolution but that's what's happening now

there's no intervention i read through the solid tire process. i have lived most of the solidarity astrologically eighteen weeks of the revolution in thirty years square so there's no point in lecturing me about your personal participation i participate in three square the eighteen days so there's really no point in going down that road ok gentlemen i want to go to washington and i'm going to be going to continue with my cynical other line of argument here. the so-called libyan democrats are opportunists they're trying to take advantage of american and western powers that have been red faced humiliated. seeing their very good dictator friends leave and now they want to show their quote unquote good face and the because the opposition to gadhafi which many of them were associated with gadhafi one point time or even al-qaeda in other groups they're opportunists now trying to cash in where you think. yes but if. the international community does not help

pro-democracy forces who will this is i mean you have to look at the arab world as a region and system when the tunisian revolution happened all arabs were tunisians when you gyptian the one happened all arabs were gyptian so if we let their feet get away with this it would signal to all the other arab dictators that all they have to do to stay in office is to shoot and massacre their relations also for the intervention of course that didn't go as expected that it's going to be short and brief and then the pro-democracy forces will. take over the country and fortunately the pro-democracy forces seem to be highly organized and also and they're equipped. international community had to do something as the international the so-called international community supported arab dictators for sixty cade's so it is high time that they start switching. camps also the international

community interfered after the demands of the libyan opposition and the arab league which is a very exceptional thing. the arab league agrees on calling upon the international community to protect libyan people now of course we are moving to the end zone because as a judge mentioned as we mentioned it's not as effective so what will be the next step that i would like to know from john if it's not an international community intervention how do you see the future of libya or diffuser of the relations between gaddafi and the libyan people ok john you want to feel that go ahead. well i entirely support the process my point about western intervention is that it's subverting that process it's buying a revolution to be honest if the west is kept out both of libya and out of the intervention to cross the revolution in bahrain what we might now be looking at is a victorious revolution in bahrain which would have given enormous heart and

enormous sustenance to the libyans themselves to fight on even under the more difficult more difficult circumstances so my argument is about the west clearing out of the entire area and allowing as you quite rightly say what is apparent revolutionary experience to play out across the region on my what do you think about i mean military intervention promote democratic interests in the region all across the region if we go through our true north africa. you know you can't really talk in generalities and i apologise. and conspiracies here we have to actually if we're looking at libya and the subject is libya we have to be much more objective about it the west and the europeans didn't just come to libya because they had plans weeks before months before years ago to come and thirteen we're talking about a human contact catastrophe in the making and some correction i must add is it's not a civil war here look at what you're looking at how it was the civilians tack brutally

by and military machine of thirty five hundred. to one hundred airplanes hundreds and hundreds of the helicopters i mean there's this proportion that. they're totally disproportionate and you know what i for one person who actually is associated with the libyan opposition on the libyan movement very much appreciate the united states and involvement in this the u.k. and the europeans i mean they have the ability to intervene bit actually intervene and it might have been just a week late if they would like a few days later that we would have experienced complete massacres and not going to be so omari me ask you this question if you want to go to the united states and nato to continue bombing your country ok what happens if gadhafi forces go into urban areas and stick it out there do you want bombing there to get them out i mean how far do you want your country. to be liberated from gadhafi go ahead.

there are missed there are unfortunate events that take place or may be taken place now that are not under anyone's control basically the united states u.k. france and the stronger members of nato. or able to avert a massacre in benghazi when i was in benghazi i talked to the people down there i found out from myself that they talked to some of the soldiers that belong together if you are a loyalist and they had given being given a mandate to come to town leveled the town of nine hundred thousand people literally leveled the town rape the women and and kill every man from eighteen to forty and do you really honestly believe we're going to are we just keep hearing this creepy really doing and we just hear this from people like you ok there is no evidence of this except for people like you come on programs like mine and say hey

we're going to do this this and this but we never hear from which never cooperated i was on it again and that's really important here john if i can go to you i mean when the first bomb dropped is there any good way out of this mess. you know because even if we take it on the on the on the kind of playing field that omar is talking about if this goes on for a long period of time we will see the same amounts of human casualties we will see a prolonged period hold a military to military going to have people on the problem with that is as we've seen as we've seen in the last couple of days nato has just destroyed the lives of thirteen of the of the revolutionaries outside reagan now when we look at going to stan karzai first of all started off saying oh well that's unfortunate these things happen and then a week after week month after month the civilian casualties but build up so that even the puppet administration which invited and celebrated and was put in place in

afghanistan because of the invasion is now find it intolerable that this should go on for a decade nobody said at the beginning of the afghan war this is going to last ten years believe me at the end of this even the people who asked them in will be regretting they asked me in because the imperial powers of very very difficult dinner guests they sit down at the table but when you're ready to go to bed and was going to leave they don't get up they start raiding your fridge they start looking at your wallet and they all go right gentlemen on that note here i'm going to jump in many thanks to my guest today in irvine why she didn't end in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here on our team see you next time and remember past articles. and. stories.

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