on the. video. with the palm of your. call. what happens when a soldier's conscience collided with his orders and i will sit down with a retired u.s. army colonel buddle say mcgregor the man who won the largest tank battle since world war two former navy seal and blogger j. robert de waal then stuart rhodes founder and president of oath keepers an organization of guardians of the republic committed to honoring their oath to the u.s. constitution remember u.s. troops confiscating civilian no weapons during katrina let's work to ensure that never happens again you're watching adam vs the man.

joining me now is retired u.s. navy seal j. robert walker who served as a sniper in afghanistan and now blogs a powerful case that net on his site he references a quote that he appeared in my system self from douglas macarthur the soldier above all other people prays for peace for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war was to thank you for viruses and pleasure so. you served as a sniper for the navy seals in afghanistan tell us a little bit about your service and what lessons you gain from it i have to carry out that i did not actually serve as a sniper and wasn't required in the navy seals ok intel on primary reconnaissance got a special thank you lots of time in iraq and afghanistan but none sniping ok well

we were we don't want to get into the mechanics of the sniping anyways but really what were the what are the lessons going because you served you served for twenty five years of years twenty years you've lived in thirty countries thirty four now i think and you must have learned some lessons specifically from your service that informs your views now on our foreign policy tell us about that well in the special operations community the unconventional warfare we see a lot of the human face of war beyond the conventional tank gravel rolling in we see what happens when little girls are blown up and what their fathers would do to us in retaliation even if they were they were sort of pro us in the beginning one of the lessons i like to the reason i do blog a powerful piece on that is because i want to communicate the fact that a force can be misused and when it's misused it brings more danger back to us if you will my my fellow you guys are going to stay with there you go right my focus is on reducing conflict it wherever possible but not rainbows and unicorns kind of

perspective because there will always be conflict and we call it applies more power you know because of this more power well please elaborate and i want to ask you the next question really want to get into your principles of a powerful piece and you have a doctrine and also if you've been developing around it absolutely joseph nye from a sort of professor at harvard and also an undersecretary for sometime. founded the idea of soft power back in the early nineties and the concept is that america has a power and all countries have the power based on attraction and persuasion he said we're being heavy boots on the ground heavy armor and our present of the ugly american has set some poor presidents the soft power based on the same way that the japanese adopted the baseball apple pie and and suck ups after world war two because we didn't try to force those cultural ideas on them they simply were appealing to begin with so by by attraction that became part of the japanese

culture i've been advocating to bring that international relations soft power down to the interpersonal level for a long time i wrote my first piece on this one for ever the word soft power because i want people to understand how our war fighters our leaders and even our people coming out of high schools in my book a coming is going to be about that's probably going to call power peace will be releasing in about three months and it's based on the blog the idea is that if every social studies student in high school understand this principle before he goes off into the war before he becomes an adult citizen of america he will be more broadly minded about what the people are about in the world and understand rightly beings we understand that it's and we know why they would we would tell it to work against us if you will when we when we over use force right and so we've seen in the way the military is applied today you know this from your experience in iraq in afghanistan and from my experience in iraq we saw that i was civil affairs and we spent a lot of our time assisting out with the m.p.'s the military police it seems like if you weren't infantry and even if you were when you were in country like this

when it's an occupation when we're managing civilians interact with civilians on a day to day basis everybody becomes is a provisional m.p. and all alot of troops are being asked to fulfill roles they haven't trained for and they're put in situations but they're not comfortable with then there's perhaps an extreme example on the legal side of things we had hurricane katrina where troops were used to help confiscate civilian on farms and where do you draw that line and in that work that you would be doing like you said you really want to have the middle school since i school students get some of that knowledge before they go to war and have that background we are is that line drawn for you. it the line slides and you can imagine a spectrum of hard to soft power that hard power is what you do when you're at the e.c.p.a. or entry point in iraq you're giving candy to iraqi children and you see a man in a bulky vest walking up sweating and running a little bit faster and faster as you face him you tell him to stop you from your

weapon and he keeps running he's a suicide bomber is going to kill you and the children at that moment right you see them in the head that's that's the ultimate who are aligned when it comes to specific orders you're being ordered to confiscate weapons you're being ordered to raid a home in iraq because and confiscate all the weapons when the day before we told them that the rule was you could have one a k. per adult male perhaps or that's a great great example we have we hypocrisy is the biggest killer of good relations if we say one thing and do another which is a very common in a lot of countries and so when shouldn't run should the soldiers on the ground be standing up to the sword. and he's saying look at this this isn't this is either immoral or i'm concerned about the legality of this or that's exactly how that's exact response to say is i'm concerned about this because a person can say i have i have some reservations about this doesn't sound like a lawful order to me and that gives the commander an opportunity to change his mind on the spot and say you know what maybe it was crossing the line a little bit we had the guys who were going to joyfully recently ordered

a couple of cases to shoot as it was about to kill team orders at the moment they're going to stand right to those girls and some birders in that case what was one of our our popular right at the international level again makes us in no danger of terrorism and what about when the response from the officer is you're going to get out there and do what i told you you're going to shoot that person and you're going to you're going to torture that person and you're going to do what i told you and i don't care about the legality of this but fortunately the soldier has a code of conduct to follow standing rules and he has the use the m.j. whatever he knows of it the best prepared person will be able to look back in his memory banks and compare the order against what he knows his wife or not all lawful but in most cases on the fact was foolishly that all he can do is say i'm not going to do it he can simply refuse and face the consequences exactly and that's fair that's fair the person that refuses to take an order should face consequences because each of us has you know every choice we make there's a positive or negative consequence and just hope that it plays out well and anyone who is in the courts martial can follow and sometimes they can even make

a judgment call if they don't personally was not necessarily guilty because he did have this legitimate excuse or a legitimate argument against the order and i would thank you so much for joining us really interested hope to have you on again thanks a lot that was retired u.s. navy seal j. robert did watch i got his website it powerful piece net to learn more about his principles of powerful he sent check out when his book comes out in several months here. during the first battle flus in april of two thousand and four my civil affairs team was attached to a golf company second battalion first marines gulf company was responsible for the blockade of what we call the george washington bridge that would be the southern one across the euphrates here on this side of the city of fallujah this is

a sniper looking out over that ridge this here is the brooklyn bridge that northern bridge you saw on the map where four blackwater contractors were strung up and burned precipitating that first battle of fallujah as civil affairs guys when the bullets are flying our workload goes down it least in theory but practically speaking we got to help out with all sorts of jobs in the gulf company area of operations one night after i finished my shift at one of the guard posts by the bridge i was asked to guard a couple of the trainees for a few hours they were in a small guard shack by the bridge bound with zip ties and hooded that's me they had been there long enough that they were surrounded by piles of their own feces the sergeant who briefed me on the rules for guarding the detainees told me you speak arabic right tell them what pieces of crap they are

so i did my job and i talked to them in my broken arabic for the few hours we had together i was told to keep them awake by kicking around and then so when they looked like they were nodding off. i know this story is not going to reveal anything we don't already know about what is happening in iraq and afghanistan but i want to stress. the tragically typical nature of this well we saw it grave may be an anomaly but only in its severity and the thorough photography and golf company at least a dozen marines were asked to guard these they teach those detainees in the same manner that i and in iraq in afghanistan our troops are being asked to do things every day that may jeopardize their own morals the incidents of troops standing up against on our followers are few and far between because the kurds required to

resist the chain of command is far greater than the kurds required to face the enemy and supporting the troops means supporting them when they are called to make a stand for the law of war their own morals and sometimes the us constitution. retired army colonel douglas macgregor is the recipient of a bronze star with a v. for valor for his leadership in the battle of seventy three eastern as the squadron operations officer in the gulf war in which with ten tanks and thirteen bradley says unit destroyed almost seventy republican guard armored vehicles and just twenty three minutes he served in the army from one nine hundred seventy six until two thousand and four and his latest book lauriers rage the great tank battle of

seventy three seen he makes the case that the failure to finish the battle with the republican guard along the seventy three sting in one thousand nine hundred one led to iraq's second major confrontation with the united states in two thousand and three resulting in two hollow victories and the tragic bloodletting that continues today in iraq in a power point presentation he delivered to select members of congress on october sixth two thousand and nine he said. the best we can do is withdraw our forces from the publicly stated understanding that how the afghans govern themselves is their business talk about a guy with guts for your service your candor and your willingness to speak out your patriotic dissent thank you for your service you are a true american hero colonel thank you for joyously having to be here now we have heard so many different opinion statements from people in supposed positions of authority recently we have obama bombing libya while secretary gates says it's not

essential to the us security we have obama saying that at least trying to convince us it would seem he wants us out of afghanistan and betray us is talking about us being there for twenty years i'm a little confused by what's really going on here is there is there somebody in charge right now who is behind the wheel we're going to do the lone ranger i think the american people are very confused. we've had a series of interventions the really began shortly after the the goal for nine hundred ninety one if you we can recount a little history very briefly we intervened as some of your audience members will remember in somalia a stand simply for the purpose of feeding starving people and suddenly that mission after president clinton was elected was transformed into a nation building mission inside somalia and of course went very badly and subsequently we had it going to haiti and then bosnia herzegovina. eventually kosovo in each of these incidents and the justification for going in was usually on

lofty moral grounds we ended up treating the area as a laboratory for social experimentation trying to instill our notions of western style democracy could we get conservatives cheerleading for all these acts and they are really nothing more than exercises and liberal masonville would sort of liberal imperialism it's kind of altruistic imperialism and this continues you know really today in afghanistan initially we went into afghanistan for the purpose of really expunging very few numbers of people who were connected to al qaida for various reasons we didn't get the top leadership that successfully escaped into the mountains of the hindu kush which is not new that happened to the british it happened to the russians under the tsars time people have always been escaping into those mountains but we essentially accomplished our objective which was to drive them out and make afghanistan inhospitable to them then we went into iraq sensibly for the purpose of removing saddam hussein and certainly that was transformed into

yet another nation building mission which went very very badly cost a trillion dollars thousands of lives and today much to the chagrin of americans let's be frank iran is now the common it influence in arab iraq and loses moon i know this with the american author already really determine our foreign policy that you have a small ruling elite if i could call them that that sits in the senate in the house that is backed by a great deal of money and people primarily in new york and los angeles. it washington d.c. and these people are interested in what i would call will sodhi in foreign policy the notion that america has some sort of higher obligation to go beyond its borders and with the use of military power to install governments and change societies to the satisfaction of the small minority better never we're not a draft or a force we're a professional force and the professional forces is increasingly remote from the

understanding or awareness of many americans the pain if you will this is not felt by a large number of people and so they could pretty much do what they wanted with instrument ok just we've only got a minute left but i want to show show you a quote from former assistant secretary of defense lawrence korb he testified before the senate armed services committee and two thousand and seven in which he said the decision to escalate or to surge more ground troops into iraq will only put it this will strain on the ground forces and threatens to leave the united states with a broken force that is unprepared to deal with other threats around the world we had a surge in iraq we had another surge of thirty thousand troops in afghanistan i understand we had a little difficulty scrambling planes for libya now is the wrong or are we really to stretch them to deal with any real threat that would arise we're stretched thin i think primarily in human terms ok people are worn out that they're tired of these repeated deployments and to be frank and that there's a consequence there for the logistics right where you live it is horribly expensive

you have at least one or two contractors for every serving soldier sailor airman or marine that again that's something else that should be questioned but the bottom line is people are very tired and they don't see the point you know because let's be frank most of these people really don't know what is in their country right outstanding thank you so much for joining cycle really appreciate my pleasure thank you that was retired army colonel douglas macgregor. remember when the u.s. military was used to confiscate firearms during katrina. they need them for protection. when we come back we'll talk to founder of stuart rose about what you can do to help ensure the u.s. military isn't used against u.s. citizens ever again. the world the fear mongering used by politicians who made decisions to break through it for good who can you trust no one who is you know you'll be with the

global machinery city where we had a state controlled capitalism is called factual so when nobody dares to ask we'd give our team question more. you know sometimes you see a story and the scene so. you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else here's some of the part of it and realized everything you saw you don't i'm sorry there's a big. welcome back to adam vs the ma'am scene as the government doesn't usually like to brag about things like

a citizen abuse the stories of gun confiscation in the aftermath of hurricane katrina seem to fade from memory but our man on the street luke redoubts get caught up with some folks here in d.c. who still have some very strong feelings on the issue. during hurricane katrina the u.s. military went around and confiscated guns from legal gun owners in new orleans how do you feel about that and i don't know much about venerates and south i don't like i don't think that's right that's like that's not cool they happen so they need this for protection let's freeze the bill rates for a very long time so. after hurricane katrina in a crime that the judge later determined to be barbaric thirty one year old henry glover was shot in the back while an armed before his body was burned inside his own vehicle the perpetrators of this heinous crime were police officers david warren who shot glover a strip mall was going to pick up clothing for

a child and gregory mcrae who commandeered the victim's vehicle and set it on fire after a good samaritan use it to transport the victim's body to a police compound in a school just last week the man began sentences of twenty five and seventeen years respectively as u.s. district judge lance afeard said henry glover was gunned down because you believed he was a looter the order to disarm the people came from the chief of police of new orleans when he declared on national television that quote no one will be able to be armed we're going to take all the weapons and we then saw a patricia kone the woman who was tackled in her own kitchen and disarmed after refusing to leave her own home. but it was the military who then came to back him up so it is really. you just never you never expect to do this in your country i would

certainly hope not but even since hurricane katrina the u.s. military has been training for all kinds of domestic operations the understanding of martial law as it is in iraq it's home when you see it in the united states. buchan up or down the street. you don't want to think that said he'd have to do something. we should do in america. in iraq the rules of gun ownership that marines were expected to enforce changed all the time sometimes the purposes of raids would be to confiscate all the weapons in the house and not the pain anybody then it was one aka per adult male nevermind women's gun rights then it was one aka for households don't even get me started on how the rules of engagement varied from day to day about what we would refer to here at home as open carry rules for being armed in public fortunately for us there were some soldiers who decided to follow

their conscience when it came to gun confiscation archibald was a victim of your. part of gun confiscation firearms on station and a group of us got together through the my buddies in the military and we talked about whether or not this was the right thing to do we think the consensus that we were in the big fire. joining now city is my good friend jake the libretto jake you served as a marine in iraq in afghanistan do you have any moral qualms about your service oh i mean the men i served with i love them tremendously they're heroes in my heart and we did what we were stoled to do put the politicians that sent us to these wars the people in washington that sit behind the ivory towers of academia and lobby money except they sent us to wars that were problematic for me yes. you know i just when you raise it so i want to make it clearer for the audience here as well

because a lot of people assume that because we're having a conversation like this about some of these sensitive issues about morality and conscience and war that you know where we had some bad experience in the military and i don't you know that can be further from the truth you know you heard my story about guarding detainees and you know if it does bother me in a profound way but this is i had fun iraqi yes it was i mean i enjoyed my time there i mean that's why i saw the reasons for that challenge you know and we really you know i know you share the same thing but were there incidents or or times when you felt like you're being asked to cross that moral line well i remember during the invasion the rules of engagement because i was there for the very beginning the rules of engagement said that if anyone gets in the way of the convoys they were to be seen as enemies because there was strict rules given to iraqis did not get in the way of the convoys and i will never forget the young girl who was run over by our convoy she could have been older than twelve years old this is not something

that i did or some do the marines i served with did maliciously this is the problem of war and you know this is the conversation that us veterans we have amongst ourselves all the time but oftentimes the people that watch the t.v. or the media it's say they support the troops they're unaware of the consequences of war the unpredictable narcissistic evil that happens during conflict right well we have on the line right now joining us from montana stuart rhodes the founder and president of oath keepers stewart thank you so much for joining us this evening good to be well tell us about both keepers what is its mission. well the main mission of bookkeepers is to remind the current serving but first and foremost we sort o. to the constitution and we have a duty to refuse to obey a lawful orders including ones that follow the constitution we talked earlier about the laws of war because these are training and that would but unfortunately we don't get training in the bill of rights and i think we should be used here at home

as they increasingly are they have to have better training so we're going to support it historically had let me ask you stuart i mean do you think there's jake here do you think that this infringes on the chain of command at all because i mean as i'm listening this i'm kind of a little wary some about that you may be infringing in the chain of command why would you say to that well knows no more so than the laws of war which you have a duty to also a bit if your commanding officer. orders you to shoot kids for example you have grounds to refuse correct and so you cannot open a lawful orders no more store here we should we should try to sleep the bill of rights in the same respect we do the laws of war do a difference there's still a presumption of lawfulness unless the order is plainly a lawful so that that keeps discipline in the use it but when an order is lately unlawful and it is a clear violation of the constitution they should still have been around now sir

you saw the troops being used against us civilians in some ways to assess the properly and in some ways they confiscate firearms not only in appropriately but blatantly unconstitutionally blatantly illegally and we were really just i this made to say that as well but what is the you know we're going to promoting the stories of the guys that refuse those orders we played a clip from one of those interviews earlier in the show tonight tell us a little bit more about that and how we can encourage troops to have the courage to take a stand that those few did during hurricane katrina. well those are for sir john through may for the utah national tour and he's a good example were one person the right man at the right time to make a big difference because of his strong stand on gun rights and his unit and he had talked with the constitution and she knew asli when it came time to make a decision like that the officers came to him he came to the n.c. go and said we want you to go talk to the commander so he was you know got a guy who was tasked with going in talking to her where her command and he did

a big are people living there is a court martial to command simply to trust them down to know that stuff happened they were told look to her we want to ask you to do this and so he's an example of what can be done what our mission is to create more sort of meg's you get enough of them you tipping point what you saw yesterday election eighty nine and even with the most worst the worst were to come down to crush peaceful protest they stood behind refused to do it and two two days later the wall fell all right let's all her cool stewart we've got just a couple minutes left here and you have been reaching out to guys on active duty getting them signed up making asking them to make the commitment to join us and become oath keepers people who are going to make a decision to honor their oath of the constitution before anyone lawful orders they might get you got a membership drive going on right now you're working on something called operation sleeping giant can you tell us just in a minute we have left here

a little bit about that and what we can do to help you in the mission. well persons like enjoy it is designed to wake up the veterans i really do believe our veterans are sleeping john who will students from public if we can get them to her personally but all because of the family constitution still there are those who know expire and get them to get ready and strengthen their local communities and their states so that when the few losses and collapses we go back to constitutional governance trust to she will sound money all of these things must be done at state level so that's the goal there is where you can get them on board and what's the web site stewart operations that you can join and oath keepers dot org of course you get so what we refer to those who have service members in their family that they want to be able to reach out to what's your advice for them we have just a second left how do you how do you reach out to those guys well the best thing is better in the veteran so going to our web site and they can go watch testimonial videos and retest abilities of other veterans and they can plug into our debt were

and will be happy to bring them into the fold so it's a brotherhood of the of outstanding thank you so much for joining us that stuart rose all the way from rocky mountain montana founder and president of oath keepers and that's our show thank you so much for turning tonight tomorrow we'll cover the internet kill switch threat and the commercial privacy bill of rights act of two thousand and eleven co-sponsored by senators john mccain and john kerry you know when those guys agree we're on trouble please check out our awesome new website adam vs the man dot com to vote on gas and topics and find me on facebook and twitter you can catch the broadcast live as it airs at our t dot com slash usa and later on you tube this is out of focus from washington d.c. when justice becomes law resistance from.