life stories for him would need. to be true nineteen forty five gold archie dot com. this is there if you live from moscow look at the top stories countries around the world are threatening to pile on of pressure against syria to and the violent crackdowns against anti-government protesters but there is concern it could lead to libya style air strikes. as levy any campaign escalates france is accused of scaremongering by increasing as a tera patrols on the streets liberty groups say it's part of an excuse to impose a police state. radical islamists are recruiting more and more young people in the north caucasus region is known as

a terrorism breeding ground of militants are scaring youngsters into religious extremism. whether you as vote on palestinian statehood looming there are concerns that even a decision in favor will not move peace to the next level it's up for discussion crosstalk that's next. live. live. live live. live in the suburbs. listen to the think. hello and welcome across the time peter all about amidst the stalemate in israeli palestinian peace making a storm of people like activity is brewing palestinian leaders say they will take

their case to the united nations general assembly and seek international recognition of palestine as a state the palestinians will most likely get the recognition they want but would mean much. to the center to. discuss the future of a palestinian state i'm joined by ramsey by rudin's seattle he's the editor in chief of the palestine chronicle and in washington we cross the alan elsner he is the senior director of communications and research for the israel project ok gentlemen crosstalk rules and i think that means you can jump in anytime you want you both have very different points of view and i want my viewers to see that but first let's take a look at what some people call the peace process in the middle east. with israeli palestinian peace process in limbo and the arab protests in full swing the palestinian authority has spent its hopes on a renewed campaign for statehood and september the palestinian leadership intends

to graine its case before the u.n. general assembly that analysts predict could deliver up to one hundred fifteen votes in recognition of its state but israel has been steadfastly opposed to what it calls and your one sided moves and sees the looming change as a major threat to its security we are facing a diplomatic political. tsunami a majority of the public is unaware of and that will peak in september if the un does pass the resolution it would have made palestine as a former member with a territory that includes gaza all of the west bank and east jerusalem settled by hundreds of thousands of israelis their recognition could also help palestine bring international pressure to bear on israel and even seek action against it including sanctions and support of un peacekeepers if need be all this has become the cause of grave concern for top israeli officials prime minister benjamin netanyahu has always emphasized caution and time before making steps and the negotiation process

has to be negotiated agreements have come to. change in a distorted district he's now said to be preparing an emergency proposal to be announced by the end of may according to the higher its newspaper is also planning to withdraw troops from the west bank as a temporary trade off washington two is most likely to throw its weight behind israel and even as some say cut financial aid to the palestinians united states invest hundreds of millions of dollars to build palestinian group our city because we know that progress on the ground improved security and helps lay the foundation for a future palestinian state meanwhile polls show a critical split in public opinion a survey conducted by the washington based israel project should the thirty one percent of americans favored a unilateral palestinian declaration of independence while the poor held in two thousand and ten by the arab world for research and development showed that sixty

eight percent of palestinians favored a two state solution however top israeli officials say israel would do anything to make sure it doesn't have to cede land and while netanyahu works to devise a plan out of this bind come september a full house vote could put israel on the wrong side of history and hundreds of thousands. on the wrong side of the border my son turned all across our party. ok i want to go to you first. it's not a bad idea to be the i'm sorry the palestinians are doing this a lot of with a lot of people would say the occupation is lasted long enough there's been no real peace process and there's just been a colonization of the west bank i mean in many ways a lot of people with international opinion say the palestinians have very few choices right now what is really on the table in light of the palestine papers that were released a few months ago. put me first say well thank you for inviting me to be on the show

i'd just like to make the point right away that i'm in favor of a palestinian state and that israel is in favor of a palestinian state and that the israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu has stated he is in favor of a palestinian state but the only way to get to a palestinian state is through negotiations there are no short cuts there are no other ways of doing it and i would just like to take issue with the report that you just showed which suggested that the united nations general assembly can recognize a palestinian state and grant that state membership of the united nations that is flatly wrong only the security council can do that and i don't you know i think i'll leave all that a lot of there's a lot of legal opinion that we strongly disagree with you sir on that strongly disagree with you on that ok it is one of the reasons why you are going to united nations security council because it is like a last resort if i'm going to rooms they please my. mr netanyahu says he is

for a palestinian state is that a palestinian state to you even would recognize even if they really said we recognize a palestinian state. not at all. and many israeli officials for years i would say starting september one thousand nine hundred ninety three until today and maybe even prior to that have been saying all the right things we've been talking about he is they've been talking about security they've been talking about the palestinian independence and they want to see a palestinian state but what they are doing on the ground is what really matters i don't care what alan says i don't care what benjamin netanyahu said in his last speech whether before the congress or before the knesset were truly matters are the settlements are the soldiers are the tanks are the boots on the ground and this is what we really need to be talking about not the rhetoric because we've heard so much rhetoric really frankly from all sides but that doesn't change much as long as

the tank is still there and the settlements are being expanded i do actually agree with very poor it might only thing with the report is that this sentence that israel might find itself on the wrong side of history in september in reality israel has always been on the wrong side of history starting nine hundred forty seven hold it with the first two and there's a lucian's regarding the status of israel until today israel has never ever ventured off that one side of history and the insist on staying there and one how do you reply to that because a lot of people would say that the the us in the israelis likely go sheet for negotiation purposes for the sake of negotiations because every since i asked though what do you really see on the ground is ramsey pointed out you see a lot of israeli security and you see hundreds of thousands of settlers colonizers

what most of the world would call them well before. some assurance that i'm able to answer yes or interrupt absolutely go ahead go ahead ahead go. ok now my point is very simple the only way to get peace and to get a palestinian state is boy negotiating you could go and pass a resolution in the general assembly and you'll be left with a piece of paper it actually is a mystery to me why president abbas is wasting time on this maneuver because it will get him nothing it will get him a declaration empty declaration that will provide nothing in our settlements is one of the issues in the negotiations and there are other issues in the negotiations as well very important issues jerusalem israeli security the issue of refugees all of these things have to be resolved there is no shortcut there's no way of getting around it you have to negotiate peace will not be imposed by one side on another it won't be imposed by the united nations it won't be opposed imposed by the courts or by the united states will be reached by the parties sitting down and negotiating so

my advice to president abbas is come back to the table and negotiate it doesn't matter how far back you go in history and what you cite and which numbers you bring up and what grievances you raise the reality is there are two people living together and they need to divide this land and live together as neighbors and the only way to do that is by negotiating ok rumsey when negotiations have we seen in who's winning in these negotiations or do you believe i guess i never really like the term peace process because i don't see any peace being made. exactly and alan doesn't like history because history is very indicting really we think about it so fine let's not talk about the history of sixty years ago but. let's for a second here imagine what could possibly go through mahmoud abbas's there and by oh by the way i disagree with so many things that are has been has done but for

a second here let's try to indulge yourself and think what mahmoud abbas would have said to alan at this point and i would say that he would say listen we've been doing we've been talking for about twenty years now not only did we waste so much time and we achieve nothing but we are actually regressing palestinians during that time lost so much more land the number of illegal settlers in oakey applied is jerusalem in the west bank has doubled gaza is under siege and is going through a process of protracted war thousands of people have been killed and injured since then and our economy is worsening our our situation our disunity there is so much that happened as a result of of the so-called negotiations maybe for benjamin netanyahu and others it's really the matter of sitting around the table and playing the same old political antics for the palestinians we are enduring for the palestinians who are

losing grid deal as a result of this in this frivolous talks that we have been engaged in and we achieve nothing and we have lost a great deal since then you know and can you mention something lee the palestinians have gone out of negotiations are slow. because of course the israel withdrew from most of the. from most of the west bank cities and there and the palestinians run those cities on their own i was just recently in ramallah the place is booming contrary to what ramsey just said the palestinian economy grew by about nine percent last year only if only the united states economy would grow by nine percent now he mentioned gaza and the situation is that israel withdrew from gaza in two thousand and five there are no settlements there are no troops and what do we get instead and that was a unilateral move what we got was hamas which continues to fire rockets almost every day at israeli civilians according to our count three hundred twenty eight rockets so far this year just a couple of weeks ago some terrorists fired

a guided anti-tank missile at an israeli school bus it was actually a russian built anti-tank missiles so it's curious how they got hold of that and so this is you know this is a situation which shows you have your you have your grievances i have my grievances is not that i don't want to talk about history i can go back and quote history with the best of us and i can give a radically different interpretation of history but where does it actually get i'm sorry. just a very important one after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the israeli palestinian conflict stay with r.t. . if you. want to.

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back across not computable true mind you were talking about the possible recognition of a palestinian state. can. ok ramsey if i can go to you this program is about the that the possible vote in september but so it means we have a few months before that vote and we know that netanyahu is going to the united states and we also know that obama is possibly going to make a big announcement here i mean it looks like a very there is an end in like they don't i don't want to forget the arab awakening are going through all through the region here this it would be a good time for a negotiated peace to be made between the parties because israel does have issues with the palestinians a very strong historical one but the jaitley the level of change it's going through the region right now might be a good idea to get a decent deal for both sides so they at least that issue can be put to rest because all there is going to be

a lot of other issues unraveling as the arab awakening continues. you know mahmoud abbas the so-called president of the palestinian authority perhaps. has reached a point of compromise that most palestinians really disagree with. and i personally find his compromises very appalling considering what of our people have been going through all that said someone like mahmoud abbas still couldn't find common ground with benjamin netanyahu a very good or lieberman and many others because this guy has made it very clear not only they don't want negotiated peace and they don't want a settlement that abides by international law they are doing their own thing and they are not abashed at all by doing the fervent buildup in is drusilla i'm the settlement freeze of this book about last year has all been made up for and

there is more under construction throughout the west bank in the legal settlements than in any other years in the last five years and that's according to peace now which is an israeli organization so the israelis have given no indications whatsoever that they are keenly interested in peace they only want to get back to the so-called negotiating table in order for them to win more time to build more settlements and to achieve whatever strategic and colonial gains they have in the west bank it's very difficult even for someone as amiable as mahmoud abbas to really carry on with this show right for too long and this is a problem this is why he has gone to the united nations because he is here just losing hope that the u.s. especially obama who has spoken of the need to freeze settlements and all of that he is the first obama who voted against you anderson lucian in february that condemns the freezing of the settlements so the u.s.

is negating it it's all in policy regarding the. settlements so what else could mahmoud abbas at this point to do a right wing government and an inconsistent american president there's absolutely no other option for this man got to go to the united nations and seek a third option ok alan there was a lot said or do you want to reply to it. well i first want to pick up your point about the arab spring as you put it all of the unrest gripping the arab world and it's striking to me that on a day when syria again is using live fire against its own citizens that the u.n. is not discussing that that issue the u.n. is a body the u.n. general assembly is a body that is has a record of a shameful record of anti israel activity the same body in the past as zionism is racism resolution in the seventy's and had to withdraw and the ninth in the ninety's so whatever this body does the general assembly has absolutely no

credibility the un is is not stepping in with the massacres in yemen not stepping in the massacres in bahrain or the ones in syria so let me just put that on the record secondly again you know i come back to the same point that i come back to each time you have to negotiate a settlement there is no other way you can go to the u.n. you can get your resolution and maybe i'll make you feel good for five minutes but what will actually change on the ground likely is very donors analogy anyway and where are the negotiations i mean i'm sorry i'm repeating my question arose we aren't. here no negotiations because our bus is refusing to come to negotiations because israel's refuses are you feeling sad moments i mean there is this action reaction you know i mean settlements is one of the issues to be negotiated you can't come as preconditions israel doesn't step preconditions israel doesn't say we'll only negotiate if you agree in advance to our position on security or our

position on jerusalem both very strongly held positions you have to come to the negotiations without preconditions and then negotiate a bus is never set preconditions before now all of a sudden he won't come to the negotiations until israel freezes the settlements what israel froze the settlements for ten months last year was good for nine let me just finish my point is i'm just spent an hour and let me just finish my point very quickly we're going to be there ok because just because you suspending building are illegal so that's that's like saying you know i'm going to give back you your own property isn't it. well first of all i would say that you know as a moderator it would behoove you to take a neutral stand in this otherwise i said i don't believe in the i don't well i don't believe the same way how can a moral person just be neutral about other people suffering is a question of doing your job in a profession why you're doing there's a three eighty years exactly what i'm supposed to be doing and i'm so you go ahead ok so so so you both ganged up against me and go let me finish my point let me just

finish my point that the settlement freeze was declared for ten months. did not come back to the table until nine and a half months of those will go on and then he sat there for two weeks and then he left and since then he's been refusing to come back he has not given the negotiations a chance ok ramsey go ahead. you know i'm just i don't want to be repeating the same point over and over again it just seems to me that as far as israel is concerned the peace process is the status quo ante and they want to keep it that way because of benefiting i mean they are still getting the three billion dollars from american tax money every year they are still getting all the support the political validation they need from the u.s. and its allies all over the world and they are still using the same all tired redundant language trying to the dealership denies an entire international body

like the general assembly just simply because they you and those into want to see eye to eye with israel's in the middle. settlement building and violations of human rights in gaza and the west bank and jerusalem and just simply because you and doesn't agree to this then the entire you and becomes a hypocritical illegitimate organization which is really in my opinion is very. however to go back to the issue of negotiations and yet once more i repeat we have negotiated for twenty years and we lost much more than before we have nothing to show for what can possibly someone let mahmoud abbas to his people now why should i return back to the negotiation table while there are three thousand houses under construction in the illegal settlements in the west bank where neighborhoods like see one and shit gerard and his jerusalem are being taken over by by by right wing

jewish settlers why should i return back and talk to these people shake their hands and smile to cameras it's just a waste of time and it's demoralizing and it's getting us nowhere ok alan isn't getting onto a million and we just asked russia. we're working with what's your alternative how are you going to get to a palestinian state if you do come back to the negotiations. you know at this point i am not very picky regarding terminology how do we get to the palestinian what i want to get to at this point is what i perceive as the priority of the palestinian people we need unity between palestinians unity independent of israel israel pressure and manipulation american pressure and financial manipulation we need to achieve unity between the west bank and gaza between palestinians everywhere this is what we need to achieve right now we need a real still. usable that we are suitable our guy had let me ask you

a let me ask you a follow up run see you say you need unity between the hellerstein years in the west bank and in gaza ok hamas in its charter says that it's in favor of destroying israel and it calls on its people to kill jews so the unity that you want to achieve would that be on the terms of hamas or the interim on the terms of the palestinian authority ramsey go ahead. neither neither really i mean if you go back a few weeks ago i wrote an article where i called on hamas i said it's really in the spirit of the arab spring it's time for self correction and i called on hamas to revisit and to rethink its charter because not only it's inconsistent with the national aspirations of the palestinian people it's inconsistent with hamas is political program according to which they won the elections of two thousand and six but in reality to answer your question alan i don't want to see unity based on the

guidelines of how must all factor i want unity that is based on the national aspiration of the palestinian people at home and india spread those aspirations that are validated and are consistent with international law that says the behavior of israel in the west bank and is jerusalem and gaza illegal this is what i would like to see and that's what i think is our top priority unfortunately every time palestinians get even close to achieving that unity you know what happens immediately hillary clinton and prior to that when these are lies would twist a bus's arms with threaten that they would withhold funds from the palestinians if they actually achieve that unity the same behavior as in israel so i worry the other sorry is observationally i ever tell you in israel and the u.s. right now you give you a year and a much more now and go ahead. well when abbas said he wanted to visit gaza to achieve this unity what happened and there were demonstrations in favor of it hamas

cracked down let's remember hamas gets its arms gets its weapons from iran and iran is interested in keeping this conflict going on as valid also to destroy israel israel lives in a very dangerous neighborhood this is why we have astonished and israel i want it well it's a distraction you don't even tell me it's no use traditional and when somebody hit you just won the argument not it's a major distraction and has very little to do with the reality on the ground when somebody when somebody is building a nuclear weapon and he's vowing to destroy me that's something that i take extremely seriously and as a son of a holocaust survivor that kind of history is very mindful i don't take genocidal thirty and i was very very dangerous travel reality very high drama on my mind here you have to stop that. thank you very much many thanks my guest today in washington and in seattle and thanks to our viewers for watching us here on r.t. see you next time remember crosstalk.

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