the stories of the world long gone. after. reading the diaries of. archie. it's eleven thirty pm friday night here in moscow my name's kevin now in thank you for being with r.t. these are our top stories activists in syria holding a day of nationwide protest against the government reports the demonstrators have been fired upon and dozens killed the u.s. is threatening action in a timely sounding serious alliance with the rat experts say washington may have its side some post countries. russian security forces kill ten armed militants in the caucasus region including the leader of a terrorist cell responsible for

a number of attacks it's the latest in a series of successful counter terror sting operations in the region. i'm also says a russian pilot found guilty in new york of drug smuggling was taken to america illegally and abused in custody constantini other shank has committed no crime on american soil because it's never been there before his arrest by u.s. agents in west africa last year. just thirty seconds away from cross-talk tonight people of elle's guests look at whether there's an undercover hand that work among the arab revolutionaries as r.t. . reviews the latest in science and technology from. the future.

along in the welcome to cross talk and peter all about as the arab spring interested six months it appears to run into some serious headwinds to some arab just part of a learning curve and are the democratic rights of some people limited by the west geopolitical interests. to. discuss what may be called a counter revolution in the arab world i'm joined by and i deem she hardy in london he's an associate fellow at the house also in london we have gilbert ashqar he is a writer and professor at the university of london and in washington we go to lawrence korb he's a senior fellow at the center for american progress all right gentlemen this is a crosstab that means you can jump in anytime you want first and i to go to

goldberg in london and are we seeing different paradigms being developed in the arab spring moves forward the arab awakening as some people call it we have the tunisia maybe egypt model where we have something maybe approaching a revolution a real revolution of changing the guard there and then maybe the bahrain model backed up by the saudi arabia they wrote the script there and maybe reluctantly with american supporting two different paradigms we have right now big haters that fall and dictators that are really clamping down well i would call that because you have. very different situations actually even. egypt and tunisia the situation. different between the two countries. i mean if you mean the countries where the. succeeded the overthrowing the dictator and countries where the fight is still going on yes indeed you have. basically all the countries where this has been

successful. if i could stay with you. is because of maybe tunisia and egypt what is the learning curve for. some of the autocrats in the arab middle east i mean we look at syria we look at yemen and they are what lessons have they learned when they look at tunisia when they look at egypt. no but that's the problem here is you have really different situations that in a country like tunisia for instance. the ruling clique was more like a kind of. you know more imposing its record even on the political and economic elite that existed before before ben ali came to power in eighty seven. and also explains the real reason is in which he was ousted from from power and that the army just whereas in in egypt already the situation was different because

mubarak is a product. of the army and the army is the backbone of. still in power i mean what you have in in egypt is very clearly the army ruling i mean it's not behind the scenes it's very very officially so. seen countries like libya or syria or the ruling families in the gulf countries and you could use the same formula of ruling family to for libya and syria actually. i mean you have. these elites call them like. i mean only the story. you can hardly hardly see see them leaving the scene you know and then leaving behind something very optimistic about the future is it really potentially has more violence my dream what do you think about that i mean we have assad and people like this have they learned from the. mistakes let's say of their fellow dictators in the region.

well i agree with what you've said of course but the other side of the scoring is that what's happening in all these countries is one single phenomenon caused by the fall of an idea the idea of family a dictator a. sort of a dynasty can rule a country using security services and the army and basically. raising any political life and the country. that's redundant and that's what's causing all of the to collapse one after one after the other so so what's different is the circumstances but but the phenomena is more or less the same and in fact before we lied which they ruled was the same because they have shown the west. they are irreplaceable they are indispensable

they provide stability that beyond is chaos. it's unimaginable what would happen beyond them and that's what makes makes them. makes it difficult. to imagine life after that and that's why for example. those that are clinging to a shot i thought are more in washington and london and paris than in thirty eight self i mean the generations that we've seen regarding russia. and the last three four days. prove this i mean. they show that there is support for holding up or essentially saying in power. even from israel ok ok i was going to say larry i mean i mean i really like time that it was a second ago i mean these regimes are indispensable this is the message they're selling and you know in the united states looking at saudi arabia i mean it is it

is said it is it's not a video it's not happy with what is happening it's it's unfortunate what's happening in bahrain but it's not to do anything more just saudi arabia because it's afraid of saudi arabia's reaction because the united states just has gotten so used to working with dictators that are due there will. well i think you have a couple issues here and i think i agree that you know these people like barclays who are thorough kerry and rule is to try and play up what will happen after them we know that in the final conversation between president obama and then president mubarak about whether he should step down he kept repeating the word muslim brotherhood muslim brotherhood muslim brotherhood despite that i think then the next day then obama came out and said no it's time to step aside i think some of the other rulers have learned a somewhat i think the the president of yemen doesn't want to end up like mubarak being on trial so he cut a deal that says ok i'll leave put you know no prosecution no for me and even in

syria they did try it in the emergency emergency law but i think when it comes to whether x. terminal powers like you know europe the united states should get involved that becomes a different situation it's one thing to talk rhetorical it's another thing to do what we've done for example he and liberty are and you're quite right in terms of saudi arabia will we will try and get the regime to modernize to you know if there's chair power will try to do the same thing in bahrain you were going to have very little it was out because well i will try. these are going to be a difference between rhetoric and you know the actual law the actual law policy i mean when you say you know you look at this very very important right now do you go ahead do i jump ahead this is crosstalk i had written rhetoric i'm following your destruction of these cases you can. read through it is much more powerful than

sixteen's bombing through typically rhetoric means that the international community does not support these rulers anymore and so these these regimes will then crumble they are very fragile and people are hesitant to come forward. and. abandon ship because they think that the united states support bashar assad and support the saudis and support it's a very good point frank united states. and israel is extremely important. in fact the rhetoric and we're seeing the rhetoric that you think if equivalent to president obama. or market action i'm going to the street and shooting people themselves in syria when when. they're giving the regime like to kill ok gilbert i want to go to gilbert in london here i think this is you guys are gunshy where i really want to get in this program i mean there is this obvious double standard here well one syrian already had one so you i think is extremely

optimistic first of all of being believing that all the regimes will collapse. and secondly their three couric is more powerful than weapons and all that well i think . if you had all the rhetorical in libya use in libya the station in libya would have been stabilized under his rule long ago actually. not really extremely optimistic about the scenario in syria. so it's not it's not that easy because precisely as i said there's a basic difference between countries like egypt and tunisia and countries like libya and syria or the ruling families in the gulf. actually if ever you can imagine anything you know stopping them from crushing in the most bloody manner

a mass uprising. broad split in the purpose and something leading to some forms of civil war as we have seen in libya. could happen in syria actually if the movement could carry on so i wouldn't be. this is the most the cream this is this is this book scream regime wants you to believe beyond the scales that if the if. there is not it's sectarian civil war will go on the world is not the end you know i want to do i want to go to larry i want to go to larry but i mean if if if if we by that then we could just boiling pot and then we get chaos anyway i mean it's always once it started it was a process that started you really not going to be able to turn it off we're going to be in syria and it doesn't feel right to stay you'll see you know why this was one of the only areas first it's going to larry you know every. i take the united

states wants assad to go the question is that there's no way that they can do it in and a cost effective manner in terms of intervening because on like egypt the military and the police support assad had and similarly in terms of the rhetoric they would like the saudis and the bar. what how do we know i mean for gosh sakes i mean when we went into libya the reason that that we got we did is the arab league asked us to go away and so we did not want to have a situation where the united states particularly you know so you have to say we're going you should of been drilling let me finish ok let me finish i don't interrupt you ok let me finish work ok well let me finish here let me finish air you know let me make my point ok let me finish i don't interrupt through when you're speaking ok i'm just saying that the united states does know there's no way in which the west can interfere in syria without making the situation worse on the ground rhetorical you they are saying they have condemned what assad is doing but in terms of the

ability to do something it's not like libya where you had the rebels had taken control we're able to jump in right here we have to go to a break after that break we'll continue our discussion on the arab spring stay with r.t. . to take you straight . to the. wealthy british science site. sometimes guys. like this. market find out. why no one should really happening to the global economy with mike's concert for

a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune in to cause report on r.g.p. . i. look forward to be held. and say. the pain and suffering will never be forgotten. as well as the joy of the ration. spring the nine hundred forty five on our. kitchen stewards. welcome back to cross talk on peter a little to remind you we're talking about the revolutions in the arab world. if

you can still see. ok gilbert i'd like to go back to you in line and i very much appreciate the differentiations that you showed us in the beginning of the program i think you're spot on there and but at the same time there's a universal value that is. preached by the west particularly the united states is the value of democracy now should not just be a blanket outlook ation that everyone should have the right to democratic values and to a civil society where they can participate in that is a single message and is it being applied very specifically in the region right now because i think the people in bahrain feel that way. no of course you're exactly putting your finger were were it should be i mean this is sheer hypocrisy that we are we're we are seeing when we deal with the west as you know holder of values and inspired by such values in its approach to the political situation in the

region first of all we shouldn't forget that took the west quite a long time before they the you know. play it as if they were on the side of a popular uprisings and democracy for they have been you know maintaining close relations was all sort of despotic regimes in the region for decades and decades and even when the movement started the first reaction of paris for instance was to offer ben ali in tunisia technical help for the repression of the rest of the rebellion there and it's only after that when the really the uprising reach very big proportions they felt ashamed and embarrassed and the same could go for washington and when you go to to egypt they stuck to what were very long then who are muslim and and all that and if we go beyond that also we were speaking of interventions in in libya and syria but if people are speaking of

dialogue that this is because these are genes which are not completely friendly to the west even the fee for the last few years have been a close collaborator of the west and recently the former head of the cia actually was explaining how good you know what contributed to the cia's and united states so-called war on terror has been so but when you look precisely at the gulf cooperation council countries were in bahrain where saudi troops plus other gulf troops intervened well we didn't hear much protest. or a threat so full of intervention on the side of washington or do if you would you jump in here in the week i would let me let me jump in here and not have to do so you really let's it let's listen i wouldn't go have a look at what mr obama had to say about it in this is really about saudi arabia he said my poll numbers go up and down depending on the latest crisis and right now

gas prices are weighing heavily on people that's all about saudi arabia what do you think larry that's all about saudi arabia it's all about obama or so it is truly and i saw it in the united states against an energy policy they're not going to have the freedom that they would like to deal with saudi arabia well this is not just the middle east you know what happened to chatham and square back in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine you know thousands of people were killed but yet the world deals with you know which with china look what happened you know look what's happened in russia in terms of things that have happened so the idea that somehow or another the united states with or without its allies is going to make the world democratic you know larry larry let me say in a different way than just let me let me say it differently why can't obama just say look folks the this regime in saudi arabia they're not very nice people they live centuries in the past but you know what we just have to deal with these guys

they're thugs but it's all a price can't why can't you be transparent and i can be a translator shadi ok and i didn't go shout easily say that you know you're making it you're making it so much more coherent that i think about president obama basically does not have a strategy president obama was doing exactly the opposite of what president bush was doing thinking you know the mirror image of bush would give him book so president bush was isolating to dictators refusing to be we're going he was engaging with president bush with talking about democracy and values he went to cairo and apologized for democracy. reassured to dictators that he will not impose any value on them and that he understands his he understands their their specific cities and all that so pregnant and he cop older the motivation in washington and. and through prayer while i was basically engage in this real

moving towards real lives and working with the dictators for stability really hard on the state because it's backfired on him because it was the wrong timing. that's me that's basically what it is it's not it's not it's lack of vision lack of strategy. it took him two weeks to make up his mind i mean even sorry in one of the you are saying hello glad you are just. jumping. right in your no no i'm not jumping in but ok come on to say whether to say that bush can say that. you know bugger all the paper ships in the region well he needs to very much pressure on mubarak to do to get you know more more space in the elections in two thousand and five and all he could do any changes. to make sure it is one

measure he did yes yes exactly matches the natural hair sure sure nobody has illustrations are not unique or if he's older he saw what happened no no no let me continue going over compare but. when it comes to the saudi kingdom you know the bush dynasty had extremely good relations with the i would need a new dynasty including george w. bush. and that's the key point here this is the most undemocratic state in the region the most knowledgeable of all i can say wait a second can't compare them nor syria to saudi arabia in terms of. so i can compare of. course no it's not a good model really doesn't work in reality as you hear your show every year was the king kong what i mean the people here love confederacy and they tell you whatever it was really come on. this is this is

a riot i mean either you don't know these countries or i what are you saying the most undemocratic states on earth is this how would you condemn the best friend of the united states of america but in terms of life for the most people they are it's not like it was in libya and doors it is in syria i am enjoying the experience and i have to be here i have to jump in here if i want to change had all the oil of the saudi kingdom of course the people would have a better quality of life in syria i mean this is nothing. you know and the fact actually if you look at the real figures of the saudi kingdom the fact that you have poverty in the saudi kingdom the spiders are huge always wealth it depends a lot about the kind of regime that you have there all right you know and this is the i mean by any standard if you think the women standard which also has been used by western countries and states as a pretext in iraq or afghanistan or anything like that well what about the saudi kingdom which is one of the most appalling situation for women if not the most polling after the taliban have vanished on earth and when you compare the iran to

the saudi kingdom you're on the then suddenly look as a beacon of democracy ok gentlemen i want to jump in here and i want to change gears here medium i want to go to you what about the question of iran because this is you know everyone the great card in washington is played around card ok threatening it is to the region and everything like that and the saudi family hates turnaround ok now they're playing their cards right now here is opening the door to the iranians because it certainly looks like it in many ways and it could really change the regime around depending on helping the region and around depending on how things go ahead. isn't any question you're asked three months ago is not valid anymore in our region it's changing you have a systemic change when it when the whole system is collapsing and all its components are collapsing so so it's it's no longer the sunnis versus the shia versus the worst of saudi arabia or. islamic fundamentalism

all even i think even the palestine question is going to be seen in a completely different way if your generation sees these things in it this is there because of their their parents it's my dad and my grandfather think it's a twentieth it's so twentieth century it's redundant they want to move on so so one has to i just new ideas the new and it's very difficult it's very difficult to understand what's happening it's very difficult to adjust to it and that's why the policymakers are making so many mistakes and the mistakes are that are sleeping themselves into casualties i do know that you bring up the ok then you bring up a very good point you don't use the word i used to be in a programming job or didn't like how i used it's only used in a different way a new paradigm what is to new paradigm that's coming into play gilbert i'll go to you maybe i'll used the word the right way to start. ok.

you are again i mean because you have a very situation what you have in common is this shock wave this uprising this is a people which covered the whole region which was facilitated this time. of course modern means of communication the fact that people can see what is happening almost in the real time and that played a tremendous role in the events and of course this combined with the common language in the arab countries explains how the uprising spread so first to build all the arab countries because they had income and so many factors. of you know the worst possible indicators when it comes to development when it comes to unemployment when it comes to inflation or when it comes to you know all these considerations i wanted off of that i want to jump in here i want to give i want to see everybody this particular scene i want to be fair here when larry i'm going to

give you the last word in ask you question is the united states finally on the right side of history and. well i think they're getting closer but you know you look at each case each case individually and you can't and this idea that you can have a doctor in a one size fits all is simply not true there's a big difference between each of these countries what the people want the way you know the way the world was treated people and everything so to say well because it happened in libya it should happen in syria now it's simply not true and if you take a look at egypt the real question in my mind is egypt become turkey or is it become pakistan because as was pointed out earlier the military is going to have. to jump in here ok many thanks to my guest today in london and in washington and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time and remember crosstalk.