sure is that so much given to the huge musician appearing on the front is it all about libya now with understanding the ongoing changes often follow the leader at least what makes yemen in syria different from what's going on each. player you're watching r.t. the headlines from. nato airstrikes once again rocker libyan capital calling the largest pressure on its members to intensify the bombing campaign meanwhile grief over civilian deaths and under a new orleans eventually continues to grow in the ground. the army will rush into summits is entering its second day of school has a plan on impressionable minds and then tasteless how the french system and russia successions the world trade organization are not several topics nomics and talks.

under fresh visual world news i'm an american anyway the president also russian radio and choose to u.s. space stations in washington and new york the circumstance where the ball crossed the line from moscow to continue as. well as the un security council models of british french resolution of a serious crackdown on anti-government protesters people a bell and his guests discuss about and of course they're under a minute both for the situation in libya other big show crosstalk is up next. can start. to. tell ok welcome to cross not computable

is it all about libya now when understanding the ongoing changes often violent in the arab middle east what makes yemen in syria different from what's going on in tripoli and is the arab spring with all its hope for change only worthy for some in this volatile region. you can. still see. crosstalk protests in the arab world i'm joined by nineteen shaadi in london he's an associate fellow the middle east and north africa program at chapman house also in london we go to in vassar mohammed who bought the he's an opposition activist and a former advisor to yemeni prime ministers and in tel aviv we crossed the arc of law and he's a journalist for the jerusalem post all right gentlemen this is cross talk and that means you can jump in anytime you want and i to go to you first and go to the newest news here we still have members of nato really pushing very hard for some

form of intervention that's left unsaid right now in syria here and i started out by the program are we all looking at these events now and like yemen and syria through the lens of libya is it a mistake to do that or is it correct to do that because we have to remember resolution nine hundred seventy three was a no fly zone and look where we are now. yes i think i think the west is looking at syria through through two lenses libya and iraq and that's what learning learning division what what is needed is not a military intervention what is needed first is clarity in the position sort of a clear statement. because bashar assad what the west thinks at the moment what he's getting is a very ambiguous uncertain. form of form of confused formulation of words that he interprets as

a form of support so he thinks the west wants him to stay and israel wants him to stay because the israeli side level you know whatever for the west the israelis the arabs have not told him yet what the in a clear way that his time is up he thinks that he has a license or a car to belong to do whatever he wants or kind of a license to kill. and do what it takes to remain in power because they want him to remain in power they cannot see beyond him that that's what's needed mr masters rangoli you in london it's interesting when i said is it we're is a yemen between libya and iraq is that a good way of looking at it i think yemen is a special place to certain extent because in being on the just very close it says about three thousand kilometers of border with saudi arabia and the saudis in the

g.c.c. have asked you know the west and our friends in the west. to be given a chance to sort of sort of the situation saw shots are being called for you from saudi arabia rather than from the west itself unlike syria. libya where the saudis are happy with what the west is doing there also if i could stay with if i can stay with you mr ambassador i mean looking at an article from the new york times yesterday u.s. is intensifying a secret campaign of yemen air strikes how does that play into it all i mean is the u.s. really critically care who comes out on top in yemen as long as they can continue their air strikes against what they believe are terrorist are groups in operations in yemen where this yemen in the yemeni yemeni people feel into all of this well it's obviously very much what did you know or what happened in that very important

. area. for sure they would like to see somebody who is in charge there could continue their cooperation which which. has given to the west and i think the opposition and in your region you would give the they have reassured the united states that there were things that they will cooperate perhaps better than. as regards fighting terrorism and with any other you know. towards the stability of the region yet if i go to you in tel aviv where do you stand in all of this here the devil that you know that you've heard on this program here i mean what about what's going on in yemen and i'd like to spread it out it with syria too i mean how does and i'm not asking you to speak for the state of israel but i mean how do you think the israelis see what's going on here i mean the devil you know is better than when you don't know. well that's a reference of course to bashar us of the devil that we've known for quite a few years and his father provided stability in the golan but on the other hand he

also tightened relations with iran and with iran's were presented in southern lebanon so i think that from israel's point of view clearly israel is interested in stability and a peaceful northern border but beyond that israel wouldn't be instructing or advising anybody in syria about how they should run their own country israel's israel's main interest is ensuring a stable northern border but i think while we're on the topic of syria i think syria is very different from libya and it's very different from yemen because it's a country which really i think most resembles iraq you're looking at a group of. several types several groups that are there you have the minority alawite who have been in power for decades since the sixty's at least and you have the majority sunni as who deeply resent being ruled by a minority and therefore most analysts here believe that if the us had regime falls and that's looking to be the case more and more as time goes by it looks more

likely that he will fall that would likely be followed by a. bloodbath in syria as all of these groups the kurds. in. all of these groups in syria make me battle it out and look after their own interests and that of course quite a tragic outcome should actually come to pass and just because peter pan yemen yesterday because i just wanted to talk to my friend in intel of the would would do would be happy to see a functioning democracy in in syria because that's what you have said you know when you refer to the devil don't you or is the law all rules you know that country in aware that could be kept under control the way he likes but not the way the people of the country allowed so would a functioning democracy be in or a happy alter. if you fall for the israelis you want to reply and then you have to do is to drag question life or your call that you both reply to but i'd like you

like you i would like you happy to report there is nothing there's nothing that israel would like to see more than a fully democratic syria syria that's ruled by the rule of the people and a peaceful syria a place where the syrian people can express their political views and have economic opportunities because the rule of thumb has been that he's for democracy still see conflict with one another so yes absolutely. we would like to see a democratically fully really democratic syrian republic is no question about that the only question is will that happen one falls and that's not at all clear ok go ahead in line and go ahead well you know i just like the way you ask of the month that has become the sort of standard one in this revolution that syria is not libya is not. is not egypt and then and then you have. somebody saying jordan is not is

not syria is not libya everybody is saying we're not we're not we're not but the question is the bottom line is that every single country is completely different and you cannot compare and any of them but once the idea of these regimes continuing has fallen once the line has been crossed in which there is no more return from iraq then it's a matter of time of course and ambiguous statements even like the one you just said he would like to see democracy but there's a but when there's a hesitation. all these are your statements are only prolonging the process and making it more costly because the because there's interpretive. form of support that we want to pay because we can. and that's exactly what they want to hear it mr ambassador i'm going to you. ok to come you know i'd like to ask the

ambassador because you know i think we all agree obviously these countries are all different but there are some similarities and some countries get more support from the west and the united states specifically bahrain for example what to do with yemen because of the presence of al qaeda there i mean the there is one thing the key is a common denominator is how much the west wants to intervene in not intervene mr ambassador go ahead. yes there again it's it is the sale of queer i mean i'm just now you know you wish my soul for the question i have sort of put to you call the saudis like to see a functioning democracy and. and that's the thing we're all here for the thing which is which is stalling i think changing across perhaps i mean i have read many many reports and so on and people say that what is stalling the whole change in yemen has take a long long time and i've seen the this is the initiative which had in many many flaws and perhaps to

a certain extent it cause there's cause this now sort of gears and very. grave area where we are now in yemen you know we don't know where we're going to stay where are we just getting towards and the west unfortunately our friends our friends in order to be a man has been a little bit different from the rest of the of the countries you have been mentioning that we have got a group named as the friends of yemen which was formed here in london on the initiative of gordon brown the previous prime minister him u.k. and they're to group actually involve so our regional partners are well as well as international partners global partners and we have seen them. big extended especially our western partners and friends they have been rather you know very slow in their action we have seen that they're pushed a lot of. pleasure and leverage on on syria and as well on libya but we have seen

none of that being used on yemen at all. because when you go you are careful before we go to the break go ahead and tell the godhead. but i just want to say what i what i was saying is not. a one to mock or see but rather what i was saying is democracy would clearly be best for the region and for the syrian people first and foremost and then for israel but thoughts of the but is a reference to will it actually happen and that's a legitimate question it's a legitimate question to ask whether once bashar assad falls whether a little liberal democracy or you know somebody because they come to you after the break of teaching i'll come back to you after the break after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the arab protest state party. taking.

it was created to serve public interests to inform and to entertain. these days there's nothing easier than opening a new media outlet but there is nothing harder than revoking its license in case of corruption. and. you can involve in a community where you have one large corporation controlling the daily newspaper radio stations television stations the cable outlet or you tell me that that sounds like a microsoft the public opinion versus f.c.c. broadcast blues on a large. download the official see how to make

a show on phone on my pod touch from the i choose ops to. watch on t.v. like on the go. video on demand car keys mine fuel costs and says feeds now in the palm of your. machine. welcome back to crossfire computor leval to remind you we're talking about the changing air of the middle east. ok. all right gentlemen what i wanted to release to talk a little bit more about libya and the president that libya is set for the region but many may use started out of democracy but for the region which i think is just

as. interesting go right ahead you want to make a comment before the break it's just that it reminded me of what i told my doctor and my wife but i'll stop smoking go on a diet and exercise but you know as you know and. i think this is clear. and it shows that the but is the key issue it is means that this is the devil you know we've dealt with how we've dealt with russia has given us the ability so ok if he kills a few people it's ok if he supports terrorism but he solves it later. but but you know that's that i think is. in the long term interests of the west of the arab world or even of israel there should be democracy in the region but they don't know it and they prefer the devil they know ok. and you know bring up another country here because the rain here i mean again democracy and civil society and western

values and all these wonderful things that we keep hearing the west saying but you know bahrain isn't going to get back because well there is american military interest there in iran is just across the sea so that'll always be far more important than any values that anyone in power will ever say ok you want to but you could if i be out of my own program go ahead i mean i'm going to go ahead you know i just want to say that it's not we're not talking about restaurant you're here we're talking about universal by the case not something the west has invented or only or if you want to point out it doesn't exist everywhere and i can show you places ok ok if you want to go ahead and tell the so. yeah i guess again i feel that there's some sort of gap in what i'm saying and how it's being perceived i'm sitting here in the middle east as an observer looking at what's going to happen and what the options are so what i say will democracy replace the brutal bloodthirsty dictatorship of the. nobody i think in. who who

has any awareness of the history of this region would immediately say oh of course the minute our sort of steps down it's obviously going to be replaced by a liberal democracy but bottom line is we don't know that's what we would like to happen but there's absolutely nothing wrong with from a strategic analytical point of view asking the questions who are the forces at play what is the structure of syrian society can can it survive a fall of this of this brutal dictatorship that's been in power for years without sectarian bloodbath i think anybody who does not ask these questions is unfortunately planting their head in the sand and these are questions that have to be asked by any responsible observer and i think that's a very important point to make ok mr ambassador i mean we hear this but i think they. brought up a very good point about democracy and and we heard also the term liberal democracy mr ambassador can we have arab democracy islamic democracy why should it be liberal

why can't it be the version that works for their societies. well people have actually experimented with different regimes and values and so on and that's why i agree with dean when he says you know these values of liberal. democrat has ation they're not related to the west only this is a humanity in our sort of heritage and that's why we shouldn't levelly by him being western in the end people have been watching across the world how the way forward for them to take share on and to actually take part in the in running their own daily affairs and we haven't nobody could invent something different of all the. experimenter and looks different from one country to another obviously and here in london the westminster democracy is quite different from the democracy back of the capital but still at the end when you mean by democratization i mean to give the people the ability to another chance to take share and to in running their own

affairs and this is what people have been asking instead of helping you see the question we are facing now actually in the in the in the arab world is we have never had a sort of parliamentary system most of the systems in the arab world to the public and systems where a presidential system which which by looks like the this is the luck not unlike your system it's the so-called make system like in france and then you end up with a president who like all rules like a sorrowing on or the prince of the believers and he becomes a disport and a tyrant and he wouldn't know and he wouldn't allow anybody else you know to take share in a collective sort of leadership and this is the person now because if i am one of the people who have been for a long time trying to. put the question we should be asked in our new all democratization in the arab world is moving towards parliamentary sort of

democracies like in israel or in turkey and so on with the islamic culture we have . what if somebody reaches only himself which is at the top of the author of the how and then he would become and guess what by the way of the cult so it goes and this is the thing now we were expecting to happen in egypt and unfortunately such a system a problem inconsistent is is what little monkeys in the arab world don't like ok in the name it looks like you are very much disagreeing there go right ahead when you know i'm i'm agreeing i was just thinking that the best. way to ship are also part of world heritage and you have to make a choice which which which part of it is your so you support it has nothing to do with being are or. can be. exist in north korea with three or four or less the same thing. and people have said over the years that you can't have democracy in france through central europe or or eastern europe because of the slavs or the greek orthodox or the car conduit and the catholics in that america

can do it and the spaniards can't do it you know it's always a good excuse. to choose the other model which is people really a part of world heritage you know and you have to make a choice and i can change gears here you have to find go to you know there's loggerheads now in the united nations security council on how to move forward in dealing with yemen in and syria do you think that is a direct result of the botched job in libya in a really should the international community be so when fall because when it got really involved in libya it turned into a quagmire. right it turned into a quagmire because no clear set of objectives were defined at the outset of the mission libya's it's a container ship that hinges almost exclusively. fee and the minute that you leave the head of the monster so to speak in place then you haven't solve the situation so i think you know in retrospect they should have either not got involved at all or or submission of getting rid of gadhafi but the sort of half past attempt to

intervene is just said it's setting up a permanent status quo as freezing the situation of a libya split into two one controlled by the rebels and one controlled by the regime i find the relative silence of the west and what's happening in syria according to recent reports over one thousand three hundred unarmed civilians murdered by the security forces of. a million of these forces run by his younger brother mark who is in charge of the fourth division and the republican guard whose main task is really to oppress the population i find the relative silence on that quite shocking really and disturbing i would. be would not let me just to move in is maybe just the reverse because dictators in the region now see oh look the west you know they botched it in libya they might think twice and are doing it again explicitly since countries like russia and china are saying you know you we gave

the united nations security council mandate and they abused it badly so a lot of dictators must be pretty pleased right now that maybe they're not going to be a victim of an invasion but i'm going to ask that of you know dean what do you think . would be pretty good to give the go ahead. to where it's too much of a luxury what what what you're going to spread posy is ideal for for policymakers if you're not sure just keep away but the west has no choice but to get it war because even a policy of noninvolvement is in itself a very significant policy if you're clearly if you're if you're turning if you're cutting away and you're telling someone this is a lot of our business you're. you can do what you like it is a policy for there's no such thing as a luxury of having no policy or people keeping out there's no neutrality in the west towards what's happening there should not be neutral it is not yes we can if you if you have to locate mr ambassador yes we have to do what is that me what we have to do be more specific go ahead unfortunately for the western or as regards

him and we have been. experimenting with democratization for the past twenty years and they have known for the police the past twenty years that they have been troubled there and they have been trying to help you know trying to encourage a part more participation a sort of a dialogue a new versal dialogue where they've been speaking that for the past you know three four years now when we do see initiative we see that they're going to allow this thing go forward without the needed gallow because in yemen we have got big issues like the southern issue nor and like the truth is and many many other sectors of the opposition have been kept outside of having a say in the future of relation of the new regime so again there we find that in spite of there are those a community given by them on the sidelines of the meetings in september in the meetings of the general assembly of the recognitions the three countries yemen and

you care and saudi arabia committed themselves to words and national universal dialogue in yemen but in spite of that nobody is speaking about it now not because i don't know that these values are at the end it will be used only if it helps them on interests if it's against their interest then they find themselves in a dilemma ok. we're in this problem do you think that israel and the united states and its western allies just got too used to having a very pliant arab world and they just catch flat footed in how to deal with all these changes and we all agreed all these countries are different. well i think again israel never chose its environments never decided that yes we'd like to be surrounded by police states and dictatorships because first of all these these regimes their interest is in perpetuating conflict because it's a great way for them to take world attention in the attention of their own civilians away from the real problems of the region so again there's nothing that

most israelis would want more than to be surrounded by fellow democracies real democracies and have free trade and peaceful relations this is a vision that's shared by everybody here so how to but again we have to make a separation between what we'd like and what may happen if we could push a button and that would happen though great but the region is so complicated and societies are so divided amongst that complicated. complicated run out of time many thanks to my guest today in london and in tel aviv and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember talking. to get.

hungry for the full story we've gone to. the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers on.