these discoveries flood makes them start to grow so special the detractors from the wildlife in antarctica is close if you live in the slums of. extradition to the bottom of the earth. here with our t.v. live from moscow our top stories and i caught her for us international was a former army colonel to serve a prison term for kidnapping and murdering a chechen girl has been shot dead in moscow. russia says it's ready to lift the ban on european vegetable imports if sufficient safety guarantees are provided this as well as nato is missile defense system and moscow's accession to the world trade organization growing several topics dominating from say the new tops of. nato airstrikes once again rocked the libyan capital following the lines of pressure on

its members to intensify the bombing campaign involved grief over civilian deaths and anger over foreign intervention continues to grow on the grounds of. pasta fresh vision of world news on american airwaves and voices russian radio launches through the u.s. base stations in washington and in your service have been broadcasting worldwide from moscow for more than eighteen years. now as the un security council noles a british french resolution over syria's crackdown on anti-government protesters peter the bell and his guest discuss modeling on the rest there and in yemen and compares both with the situation in libya or to cross talk is next.

kick. start. the. following welcome to crossfire computer all about is it all about libya now when understanding the ongoing changes often violence in the arab middle east what makes yemen in syria different from what's going on in tripoli and is the arab spring with all its hope for change only worthy for some in this volatile region. can. still see. the cross-talk protests in the arab world i'm joined by at nineteen so heidi in london he's an associate fellow middle east and north africa program at chapman house also in london we go to in boston mohammed who bought the he's an opposition activists and a former advisor to yemeni prime ministers and in tel aviv we crossed the arc of lopping he's a journalist for the jerusalem post all right gentlemen this is crosstalk and that

means you can jump in anytime you want i'm not demonised to go to you first and go to the newest news here we still have members of nato really pushing very hard for some form of intervention that's left unsaid right now in syria here and i started out by the program and we all looking at these events now and like yemen and syria through the lens of libya is it a mistake to do that or is it correct to do that because we have to remember resolution nine hundred seventy three was our no fly zone and look where we are now . yes i think i think the west is looking at syria through through two lenses libya and iraq and that's what learning learning division what what is needed is not a military intervention what is needed first is clarity in the position sort of a clear statement. because bashar assad what the west things i do moment what he's

getting is a very ambiguous uncertain. form of form of confused formulation of words that he interprets as a form of port so he thinks the west wants him to stay israel wants him to stay because he's really said the devil you know whatever flew through the west the israelis the arabs have not told him yet what the in a clear way that his time is up he thinks that he has a license or a car to launch to do whatever he wants or likes a kind of license to kill. and do what it takes to remain in power because they want him to remain in power because not see beyond him that that's what's needed mr masters rango to you in london it's interesting when the team said is it we're is a yemen between libya and iraq is a good way of looking at it i think yemen is

a special case to the extent because in being on the just very close it chairs about three thousand kilometers of border with saudi arabia and. the saudis in the g.c.c. have asked you know the west and our friends in the west. to be given a chance to sort of sort of the. saw shots are being called for you from saudi arabia and from the west itself unlike syria. libya where the saudis are happy with what the west is doing there. if i could stay with if i can stay with you mr ambassador i mean looking at an article from the new york times yesterday u.s. is intensifying a secret campaign of yemen air strikes how does that play into it all i mean is the u.s. really predict we care who comes out on top in yemen as long as they can continue their air strikes against what they believe are terrorist party groups in

operations in yemen where this yemen in the yemeni yemeni people feel into all of this well it's obvious the u.s. are very much what did you know or what happened in that very important stuff you hear area and for sure they would like to see somebody who's in charge of this could continue their cooperation which which. has given to the west and i think the opposition and in your region you would give the. united states that. they will cooperate perhaps better than the last as regards fighting terrorism and with any other you know. towards the stability of the region if i go to you in tel aviv where do you stand in all of this here the devil that you know that's we've heard on this program here i mean what about what's going on in yemen and i'd like to explore a split out it with syria too i mean how does and i'm not asking you to speak for the state of israel but i mean how do you think the israelis see what's going on here i mean the devil you know is better than when you don't know. well that's

a reference of course to bashar the devil that we've known for quite a few years and his father provided stability in the golan but on the other hand he also tightened relations with iran and with iran's were presented in southern lebanon isabella so i think that from israel's point of view clearly israel is interested in stability and a peaceful northern border but beyond that israel wouldn't be instructing or advising anybody in syria about how they should run their own country israel's israel's main interest in ensuring a stable northern border but i think while we're on the topic of syria i think syria is very different from libya and it's very different from yemen because it's a country which really i think most resembles iraq you're looking at a group of. several types several groups that are there you have the minority alawite who have been in power for decades since the sixty's at least and you have

the majority sunni as who deeply resent being ruled by a minority and therefore most analysts here believe that if the outside regime falls and that's looking to be the case more and more as time goes by it looks more like you know that would likely be followed by a i say terrorism bloodbath in syria as all of these groups the kurds. all of these groups in syria make me battle it out and look after their own interests and that of course we quite a tragic outcome should actually come to pass and just look pretty upon yemen yesterday because i just wanted to ask my friend in intel of the would would do would be happy to see a functioning democracy in in syria because that's what you have said you know when you refer to the devil then your is the devil or all rules you know that country you know where that could keep it could be kept under control the way he likes but not the way of the people of the country like saw would

a functioning democracy be in or a happy alter. for the israelis if you want to reply then you have posted this is to drink wash and play for your. reply i like you like you i would like you happy to report there is nothing there's nothing that israel would like to see more than a fully democratic syria in syria that's ruled by the rule of the people and a peaceful syria a place where the syrian people can express their political views and have economic opportunities because the rule of thumb has been that peaceful democracies don't see conflict with one another so yes absolutely. we would like to see a democratic fully really democratic syrian republican is no question about that the only question is will that happen. and that's not at all clear ok now go ahead in line and go ahead but you know i just like the way you ask of the month that has

become the sort of standard one in the industry revolution that syria is not libya is not true this is not egypt and and then you have. somebody saying jordan is not is not syria is not libya everybody is saying we're not we're not we're not but the question is the bottom line is that every single country is completely different and you cannot compare any of them but once the idea of these regimes continuing has fallen once a line has been crossed in which there is no more return from prague then it's a matter of time of course and bigger statements even like the one you just said he would like to see democracy but there's a but when there's a hesitation. all these are your statements are only prolonging the process and making it more costly because the because you to interpret it as

a form of support that we wanted to carry because we could. that's exactly what they want to hear mr ambassador thanks to you. ok. i'd like to ask the ambassador because you know i think we all agree obviously these countries are all different but there are some similarities and some countries get more support from the west and the united states specifically bahrain for example what to do with yemen because of the presence of al qaeda there i mean the there is one thing the key is a common denominator is how much the west wants to intervene in not intervene mr ambassador go ahead. yes again see that's the symbol of queer i mean i'm just now you know you wish shouldn't work myself or the question i sort of put to you a call would with the saudis like to see a functioning democracy in yemen and. and that's the thing going on here and the thing which is which is stalling i think changing across perhaps i mean i have read

many many reports and so on and people say that what is stalling the whole change in yemen it has take a long long time and i've seen the this is an initiative which had in many many flaws and perhaps to a certain extent it cause there's cause this now sort of gears and very. grave area where we are now in yemen we don't know where we're going to stay where are we just stepping towards and the west unfortunately our fence our friends and all the yemen has been a little bit different from the rest of the of the countries you have been mentioning that we have got a group named as the friends of yemen which was formed here in london on the initiative of gordon brown the previous prime say in u.k. and they're to group actually involve so our regional partners are world as well as international partners global partners and we have seen them. a big extent especially our western partners and friends they have been rather you know very

slow in their action we have seen that they're pushed a lot of. pleasure and leverage on syria and as well on libya that we have seen none of that being used on yemen at all ok i. just want to go to your careful before we go to the break go ahead and go ahead. well i just i just want to say what i what i was saying is not only israel want to mock or see but rather what i was saying is that democracy would clearly be best for the region and for the syrian people first and foremost and then for israel but but the but is a reference to will it actually happen and that's a legitimate question it's a legitimate question to ask whether once bashar assad falls whether a liberal liberal democracy or you can tell somebody how they come to see you after the break of teaching i'll come back to you after the break after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the arab protest today with r.t. . if you.

think you can. it was created to serve public interests to inform and to entertain. these days there's nothing easier than opening up the new media outlets but there is nothing harder than revoking its license in case of corruption. in san antonio and. you can get involved in a community where you have one large corporation controlling the daily newspaper radio stations television stations the cable outlet you told me that that sounds

like the markets and the public opinion versus f.c.c. broadcast blues on the march. more than a month. in one of the most extreme environments on the planet this is an charge of guts and people have to be aware that they are far away from civilization showing thomas discovers what makes sense article is so special and attractive for many live in antarctica. and from the. expedition to the bottom of the earth are to. keep. welcome back to cross talk on future leval to remind you we're talking about the changing air of the middle east who can. say.

all right gentlemen i wanted to really talk a little bit more about libby and the president that libby is set for the region but now. the mayor you started out democracy but for the region which i think is just as interesting go right ahead you want to make a comment before the break well no it's just that it reminded me of what i told my doctor and my wife that i'll stop smoking go on a diet i'm going to exercise but you know as you know and. i think this is clear. and it shows that the but is the key issue is means that this is the devil you know we've dealt with how we've dealt with bashar has given us stability so ok if he kills a few people it's ok if he supports there isn't but he solves it later it's ok. but but you know that's that i think is the key word in the long term interest of the

west of the arab world or you can overthrow this should be democracy in the region but they don't know it and they prefer the devil they know ok. and you know a lot bring up another country here but the rain here i mean again democracy and civil society and western values and all these wonderful things that we keep hearing the west saying but you know bahrain isn't going to get bad because well there is american military interest area and iran is just across the sea so that'll always be far more important than any values that anyone in power will ever say ok you want to but you could invite me out of my own program go ahead i mean i'm going to go ahead no i just want to. we're not talking about western values here we're talking about universal value ok it's not something the west has invented or only or if you want i think your point that it doesn't exist everywhere and i can show you places ok ok if you want to go ahead and tell be ok yeah i guess again i feel that there's some sort of gap in what i'm saying and how it's being perceived i'm

sitting here in the middle east as an observer looking at what's going to happen and what the options are so when i say will the mocker see replace the brutal bloodthirsty dictatorship of the. shit nobody i think in who has any awareness of the history of this region would immediately say oh of course the minute our set of steps down it's obviously going to be replaced by a liberal democracy the bottom line is we don't know that's what we would like to happen but there's absolutely nothing wrong with from a strategic analytical point of view asking the questions who are the forces at play what is the structure of syrian society can can it survive a fall of this of this brutal dictatorship that's been in power for years without sectarian bloodbath i think anybody who does not ask these questions is unfortunately planting their head in the sand at these are questions that have to be asked by any responsible observer and i think that's

a very important point to make talk to mr ambassador i mean we hear this but i think they. brought up a very good point about democracy and we heard also the term liberal democracy mr ambassador can we have arab democracy and islamic democracy why should it be liberal why can't it be the version that works for their societies. well people have actually experimented with different regions and values and so on and that's why i agree with dean when he says you know these values of liberal. democrat has ation they're not related to the west only this is a humanity now sort of heritage and that's why we shouldn't level it by being western you know and people have been watching across the world how the way forward for them to take share on and to actually take part in the in running on daily affairs and we haven't nobody could invent something different although obviously the experience nor the the experimenter and looks different from one country to

another obviously and here in london the westminster democracy is quite different from the democracy back and be a big capital but still at the end when you mean by democratization i mean to give people the ability to another chance to take share and to in running their own affairs and this is what people have been asking instead of having this is a question we all facing now actually in the in the in the arab world is we have never had a sort of a parliamentary system most of the systems in the arab world or the political systems where a presidential system which which by looks like the system not not unlike your system it's the so-called weak system like in france and then you end up with a president who like all rules like a zero in on or the prince of the believers and he becomes a disport and a tyrant and who and not who wouldn't allow anybody else in a share in a collective sort of leadership and this is the question now because if one of the

people who have been for a long time trying to. put the question we should be asked in our new all democratization in the arab world is moving towards a parliament to sort of democracies like in israel or in turkey and so on with the islamic culture we have. but if somebody reaches only himself which is at the top of the of the then he would become it guess what by the way of the cult so it goes and this is the thing now we were expecting to happen in egypt and unfortunately such a system a parliamentary system is is what little monkeys in the arab world don't like ok maybe the same they look like you are very much disagreeing there go right ahead when you know i'm i'm agreeing i was just thinking that but that's not there's a dictatorship are also part of world heritage and you have to make a choice which which are which part of the heritage of your support it has nothing to do with being our of or it can be. exist in north korea with theodore

or less the same the same. and people have said over the years that you can't have democracy in central and central europe or eastern europe because the slavs of the greek orthodox car can't do it and the catholics a lot of america can't do it and the spaniards can't do it you know it's always a good excuse. to true the other model which is equally part of world heritage you know and you have to make a choice not to change gears here you have to find go to you know there's loggerheads now in the united nations security council on how to move forward in dealing with yemen in and syria do you think there is a direct result of the botched job in libya in and really should the international community be so involved because when it got really involved in libya it turned into a quagmire. right it turned into a quagmire because no clear set of objectives were defined at the outset of the mission libya's it's

a dictatorship that hinges almost exclusively on our feet and the minute that you leave the head of the monster so to speak in place then you haven't solve the situation so i think you know in retrospect they should have either not got involved at all or or said the mission of getting rid of gadhafi but the sort of half past ten to intervene is just said it's setting up a permanent status quo is freezing the situation of a libya split into two one controlled by the rebels and one controlled by the regime i find the relative silence of the west and what's happening in syria according to recent reports over one thousand three hundred unarmed civilians murdered by the security forces of. a million of these forces run by his younger brother mark who is in charge of the fourth division and the republican guard whose main task is really to oppress the population i find the relative silence on that quite shocking really and disturbing i would. be would not let me just maybe just

the reverse because dictators in the region now say oh look the western you know they botched it in libya they might think twice and are doing it again explicitly since countries like russia and china are saying no you we gave the united nations security council mandate and they abused it badly so a lot of dictators must be pretty pleased right now that maybe they're not going to be a victim of an invasion but i can ask that of you know what do you think i'm being pretty good thing in these days go ahead. the way it's too much of a luxury work what you're going to spread is ideal for a forty three group if you're not sure just keep away but the west has no choice but to get involved because even a policy of noninvolvement is in itself a very significant policy if you're clearly if you're if you're turning if you're turning away and you're telling someone this is a lot of our business you're. you can do what you like it is a policy for there's no such thing as a luxury of having no policy or people keeping or there's no neutrality in the west

towards what's happening there should not be viewed it's not yes we can if you if you have to ok mr ambassador yes we have you know what is i mean what would we have to do be more specific go ahead unfortunately for the western allies with that sentiment we have been. experimenting with democratization for the past twenty years and they have known for the for the past seven to ten years that they have been troubled there and they have been trying to help you know trying to encourage the party more participation a sort of a dialogue and versal dialogue where they've been speaking that for the past you know three four years now when we did this is initiative we see that they're going to allow this thing go forward without the need of dialogue because in yemen we have got big issues like the southern issue in oil and like the truth is and many many other sectors of the opposition have been kept outside of having a say in the future of formulation of the new regime so again there we find that in

spite of there are those a community given by them on the sidelines of the meetings in last september with the meetings of the general assembly of the recognitions the three countries like yemen and you care and saudi arabia committed themselves to us and national universal dialogue in yemen but in spite of that nobody is speaking about it now not because i don't know that these values are at the end will be used only if it helps them on interests if it's against their interest then they find themselves in a dilemma ok. we're in this program do you think that israel and the united states and its western well i just got too used to having a very pliant arab world and they just caught flat footed in how to deal with all these strangers and we all agreed all these countries are different. well i think again israel never chose its environments never decided that yes we'd like to be

surrounded by police states and dictatorships because first of all these these regimes their interest is in perpetuating conflict because it's a great way for them to take world attention and the attention of their own civilians away from the real problems of the region so again there's nothing that most israelis would want more than to be surrounded by fellow democracies real democracies and to have free trade and peaceful relations this is a vision that's shared by everybody here so how to but again we have to make a separation between what we'd like and what may happen if we could push a button and that would happen or be great but the region is so complicated and societies are so divided amongst that complicated no you know complicated run out of time many thanks to my guest today in london and in tel aviv and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. so you next time remember talk to us. and i.

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