live from moscow here with our t.v.'s our top stories at seven thirty pm from the russian nationals icon the shot that unknown scout investigators haven't ruled out the killing being an attempt to ignite afaik attention for the former army colonel had served a prison sentence for kidnapping and murdering a church and girl. nato reportedly had knowledge of targeting the libyan leader meanwhile pressure mounts on syria with france and britain still pushing forward with resolution against the syrian president. and russia will resume imports of

gaston bones as soon as a few guarantees are provided this is one of the outcomes of high level talks for nato as missile defense plans and moscow's possible w t o membership. now as the un security council mole's a british french resolution over syria's crackdown on anti-government protesters peter the bell and his gas discussed five and address there and then yemen and compares both with the situation in libya cross-talk starts next here in our city. you can. start.

following welcome to cross talk computer lavelle is it all about libya now when understanding the ongoing changes often violent in the arab middle east what makes yemen in syria different from what's going on in tripoli and is the arab spring with all its hope for change only worthy for some in this volatile region. can't seem. to cross talk protests in the arab world i'm joined by nineteen to heidi in london he's an associate fellow middle east and north africa program at chapman house also in london we go to in boston or mohammed who bought he's an opposition activist and a former advisor to yemeni prime ministers and in tel aviv we crossed the arc of lopping he's a journalist for the jerusalem post all right gentlemen this is cross talk and that means you can jump in anytime you want on that he might like to go to you first and go to the newest news here we still have members of nato really pushing very hard

for some form of intervention that's left unsaid right now in syria here and i started out by the program and we all looking at these events now and like yemen and syria through the lens of libya is it a mistake to do that or is it correct to do that because we have to remember resolution nine hundred seventy three was our no fly zone and look where we are now . yes i think i think the west is looking at syria through through two lenses libya and iraq and that's what learning learning division what what is needed is not a military intervention what is needed in the first step is clarity in the position of sort of a clear statement. does bashar assad what the west thinks at the moment what he's getting is a very ambiguous uncertain. form of

a form of confused formulation of words that he interprets as a form of support so he thinks the west want him to stay and israel wants him to stay because israeli said to the you know whatever. the west the israelis the arabs have not told him yet what the in a clear way that his time is up he thinks that he has a license or a car to belong to do whatever he wants or likes a kind of license to kill. and do what it takes to remain in power because they want him to remain in power they cannot see beyond him that that's what's needed mr ambassador i go to you in london it's interesting when i'm sad is that we're is yemen between libya and iraq is a good way of looking at it i think yemen is a special case to certain extent because in being on the just very close it says about three thousand kilometers of border with saudi arabia and. the saudis in the

g.c.c. have asked you know the west and our friends in the west. to be given a chance to sort of sort of. saw shots are being called for you from saudi arabia from the west itself unlike syria. libya where the saudis are happy with what the west is doing there also if i could stay with if i can stay with you mr ambassador i mean looking at an article from the new york times yesterday u.s. is intensifying a secret campaign of yemen air strikes how does that play into it all i mean is the u.s. really particularly care who comes out on top in yemen as long as they can continue their air strikes against what they believe are terrorist or groups in operations in yemen were just yemen in the yemeni yemeni people fit into all of this well it's obvious that they are very much worried you know what happens in that very

important structure. area. for sure they would like to see somebody who's in charge could continue their cooperation which which. has given to the west and i think the opposition and in your region you would give the they have reassured the united states that. they will cooperate perhaps better than the last as regards fighting terrorism and with any other you know. towards the stability of the region if i go to you in tel aviv where do you stand in all of this here the devil that you know that's we've heard on this program here i mean what about what's going on in yemen and i'd like to spread it out with syria too i mean how does and i'm not asking you to speak for the state of israel but i mean how do you think the israelis see what's going on here i mean the devil you know is better than when you don't know. well that's a reference of course to bashar the devil that we've known for quite a few years and his father provided stability in the golan but on the other hand he

also tighten relations with iran and with iran's work as sensitive in southern lebanon isabella so i think that from israel's point of view clearly israel is interested in stability and a peaceful northern border but beyond that israel wouldn't be instructing or advising anybody in syria about how they should run their own country israel's israel's main interest is ensuring a stable northern border but i think what we're on the topic of syria i think syria is very different from libya and it's very different from yemen because it's a country which really i think most resembles iraq you're looking at a group of. several types several groups that are there you have the minority alawite who have been in power for decades since the sixty's at least and you have the majority sunni as who deeply resent being ruled by a minority and therefore most analysts here believe that if the outside regime falls and that's looking to be the case more and more as time goes by it looks more

like. that would likely be followed by a. bloodbath in syria as all of these groups the kurds but it will in all of these groups in syria make me battle it out and look after their own interests and that would of course be quite a tragic outcome should that actually come to pass then and to. yemen yes then because i just wanted to ask my friend in tel aviv would would do would be happy to see a functioning democracy in in syria because that's what you have said you know when you refer to the devil then your is the devil who calls all rules you know that country you know where that could could be it could be kept under control the way he likes but not the way of the people of the country like so would a functioning democracy be in or alter. for the israelis if you want to reply that they are close to this is a great question pli for your call that. replied i'm like yeah like you i would

like to see first happy to report that there is nothing there's nothing that israel would like to see more than a fully democratic syria syria that's ruled by the rule of the people and a peaceful syria a place where the syrian people can express their political views and have economic opportunities because the rule of thumb has been that peaceful democracy still conflict with one another so yes absolutely. we would like to see a democratic fully really democratic syrian republic was no question about that the only question is will that happen once our starforce and that's not at all clear ok go ahead in line and go ahead. yeah i just like the way. it has become the sort of standard one in the in this revolution that syria is not libya is not true this is not egypt and then you have. somebody saying jordan is not is

not syria is not libya everybody's thing we're not we're not we're not but the question is the bottom line is that every single country is completely different and you cannot compare and they have done but once the idea of these regimes continuing has smaller once a line has been crossed in which there is no more return from iraq then it's a matter of time and cough. statements even like the one you just said he would like to see democracy but there's a but in there there's there's a hesitation so all these are your statements are only prolonging the process and making it more costly because they because it was interpreted as a form of support that we wanted to because we could. that's exactly what they want to hear mr ambassador i'm going to you. ok. i doubt i'd ask the

embassador because you know i think we all agree obviously these countries are all different but there are some similarities and some countries get more support from the west and the united states specifically bahrain for example what to do with yemen because of the presence of al qaida there i mean the there is one thing that key is a common denominator is how much the west wants to intervene in not intervene mr ambassador go ahead. yes that again is it it's the similar square i mean i'm just now you know you wish shouldn't work myself the question i have sort of put to your call would with the saudis like to see a functioning democracy in yemen and. and that's the thing going on here and the thing which is which is calling i think change across perhaps i mean i have read many many reports and so on and people said what is stalling the whole change in yemen it has take a long long time and i've seen the this is initiative which i don't many many flaws

and perhaps to a certain extent it cause there's cause this now sort of gears and very. grave area where we are now in yemen you know we don't know where we're going to step what are we just taking towards and the west unfortunately our friends our friends and all the yemen has been a little bit different from the rest of the of the countries we have been mentioning that we have got a group named as the the friends of yemen which was formed here in london on the initiative of gordon brown the previous prime minister here in u.k. and their group actually involves so our regional partners are world as well as international partners global partners and we have seen them. a big extent especially our western partners and friends they have been rather you know very slow in their action we have seen that they're pushed a lot of. pleasure and leverage on on syria and as well on libya that we have

seen none of that being used on the yemen at all. because when you go you are careful when we go to the break i am in tel aviv go ahead. i just want to say what i what i was saying is not we in israel and i perceive but rather what i was saying is democracy would clearly be best for the region and for the syrian people first and foremost and then for israel but parts of the budget is a reference to will it actually happen and that's a legitimate question it's a legitimate question to ask whether once bashar assad falls whether a liberal liberal democracy somebody's going to come back to you after the break or teach it all comes out you have to break after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the air of protest dave starting. to think you can.

it was created to serve the public interests to inform and to entertain. these days there's nothing easier than opening up a new media outlets but there is nothing harder than revoking its license in case of corruption. stand. in front. of you can involve in a community where you have one large corporation controlling the building to speak for radio stations television stations the cable outlets you tell me that that sounds like the mother saying the public opinion versus f.c.c. broadcast blues on archie wealthy british style.

markets why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy in the kinds of reports on our t.v. . can. still. walk a magic rostock on peter lavelle to remind you we're talking about the changing arab middle east. can start. right gentlemen what i wanted to release to talk a little bit more about libya and the precedent that libya is set for the region but that he may use started out of democracy but for the region which i think is just is interesting go right ahead you want to make a comment before the break when i know if you're going to deny to me what i call my

doctor and my wife the telescopes. no can go on a diet and exercise but you know and. i think this is clear. and it's true that the but is the key issue is means that this is the devil you know we've dealt with how we've dealt with russia has given us the ability so ok if you kills a few people it's ok for supports terrorism but he falls it later. but but but you know that's that i think is. it's in the long term interest of the west of the arab world of even of israel that there should be democracy in the region but they don't know it and they prefer to do everything you know ok i'm not going to go to you alone and you know bring up another country here but the rain here i mean again democracy and civil society and western values and all these wonderful things that we keep hearing the west saying well you know bahrain isn't going to get that

because well there is american military interest there in iran is just across the sea so that'll always be far more important than any values that anyone in power will ever say ok you want to but you got to bug me out of my own problem go ahead no idea i mean i'm going to go ahead and no i don't really think that it's not we're not talking about restaurant while you're here we're talking about universal by ok it's not something to with has invented or only or if you want me it doesn't exist everywhere and i can show you places ok i can if you want to go ahead and tell me ok yeah i guess again i feel that there's some sort of a gap in what i'm saying and how it's being perceived i'm sitting here in the middle east as an observer looking at what's going to happen and what the options are so when i say will the democracy replace the brutal bloodthirsty dictatorship of the. shit nobody i think in who has any awareness of the history of this

region would immediately say oh of course the minute our side steps down. it's obviously going to be replaced by a liberal democracy but bottom line is we don't know that's what we would like to happen but there's absolutely nothing wrong with from a strategic analytical point of view asking the questions who are the forces at play what is the structure of syrian society can can it survive a fall of this of this brutal dictatorship that's been in power for years without sectarian bloodbath i think anybody who does not ask these questions is unfortunately planting their head in the sand if these are questions that have to be asked by any responsible observer and i think that's you know a very important point to make ok mr ambassador i mean we hear there's a i think that he brought up a very good point about democracy and we heard also the term liberal democracy mr ambassador we have arab democracy islamic democracy why should it be liberal why can't it be the version that works for their societies. well well people have

actually experimented with different regions and values and so on and that's why i agree with him when he says you know these values of liberal. democrat is ation they're not related to the west only this is a humanity now sort of heritage and that's why we shouldn't levelly buying being western you know at the end people have been watching across the world how the way for for them to share on and to actually take part in running their own daily affairs and we haven't nobody could invent something different although all the experimenter and looks different from one country to another obviously and here in london the westminster democracy is quite different from the democracy back of the capital but still at the end you know what when you mean by democratization mean to give people the ability the power another chance to take share and to in running their own affairs and this is what people have been asking instead of having this

is a question we are facing now actually in the in the in the arab world is we have never had a sort of parliamentary system most of the systems in the world of the public and systems where a presidential system which which by looks like the this is the lock not unlike the us system it's the so-called make system like in france and then you end up with a president who like all rules like a fire all in on or the prince of the believers and he becomes a disport and a tyrant and who are not i who wouldn't allow anybody else in a to take share in a collective sort of leadership and this is the question now because if one of the people who had been for long time trying to. put the question which should be asked in our new york democratization in the arab world is moving towards a parliamentary sort of democracies like in israel or in turkey and so on with the islamic culture we have. but if somebody reaches only himself which is at the top

of the of the hat on then he will become a despotic by the will of the cult so it goes and this is the thing now we were expecting to happen in egypt and unfortunately such a system a problem inconsistent is is what little monkeys in the arab world don't like the. name it looks like you are very much disagreeing there go right ahead when you know i'm i'm agreeing i was just thinking that the best book is a dictatorship are also part of world heritage and you have to make a choice which which which part of the heritage or suit you support it has nothing to do with being are a bore or muslim it can be i mean it exists in north korea with theodore or less so the same thing. and people have said over the years that you can't have democracy in central central europe or asia or eastern europe because of the slavs of the greek orthodox no car can do it and the catholics are a little america can do it and the spaniards conduit you know it's always

a good excuse to the troops the other model which is equally part of world heritage you know and you have to make a choice and i can change gears here you have to find go to you there's loggerheads now in the united nations security council on how to move forward in dealing with yemen in and syria you think that is a direct result of the botched job in libya in a really should the international community be so when fall because when it got really involved in libya it turns into a quagmire. right it turned into a quagmire because no clear set of objectives were defined at the outset of the mission libya's it's a container ship that hinges almost exclusively. for you and the minute that you leave the head of the monster so to speak in place then you haven't solved the situation so i think you know in retrospect they should have either not got involved at all or or separation of getting rid of gadhafi but the sort of half past ten to intervene is just said it's setting up

a permanent status quo was freezing the situation of a libya split into two one controlled by the rebels and one controlled by the regime i find the relative silence of the west and what's happening in syria according to recent reports over one thousand three hundred unarmed civilians murdered by the security forces of. a million of these forces run by his younger brother mark who's in charge of the fourth division and the republican guard whose main task is really to oppress the population i find the relative silence on that quite shocking really in disturbing i would have acted basically maybe would not let me just a rhythm nation maybe just a reverse because dictators in the region now see oh look the west oh you know they botched it in libya they might think twice about doing it again expression since countries like russia and china are saying no you we gave the united nations security council mandate and they abused it badly so a lot of dictators must be pretty pleased right now that maybe they're not going to

be a victim of an invasion by going asked out of you know what do you think i'm being pretty good thing in my head. there where it's too much of a luxury what what what your goal this proposal is ideal for for policymakers if you're not sure just keep away but the west has no choice but to go to war because even a policy of noninvolvement is in itself a very significant policy if you tell it if you're if you're turning if you're turning away and you're telling someone this is a lot of our business you're. you can do what you like it is a policy for there's no such thing as a luxury of having no policy or keeping or there's no neutrality in the west towards what's happening there should not be in your view it's not yes we can if you if you have to mr ambassador yes we have to do what is right me what we have to do be more specific go ahead unfortunately for the western or as regards him and we had been. experimenting with democratization for the past twenty years and they

have known for the for at least the past twenty years that they have been troubled there and they have been trying to help you know trying to encourage more participation a sort of a dialogue and versal dialogue where they have been speaking that for the past you know three four years now when we did you see initiative we see that they're going to allow this thing go forward without the need of dialogue because in yemen we have got big issues like the southern issue nor and like the truth is and many many other sectors of the opposition have been kept outside of having a say in the future of formulation of the new regime so again there we find that in spite of there are those a community given by them on the sidelines of the meetings in september. with the meetings of the general assembly of the recognitions the three countries yemen and you care and saudi arabia committed themselves to words and national universal

dialogue in yemen but in spite of that nobody is speaking about it now not because i don't know these values are at the end it will be used only if it helps their own interests if it's against their interest then they find themselves in a dilemma ok you have under you know us well in this program do you think that israel the united states and its western sky too used to having a very pliant arab world and they're just they're just caught flat footed in how to deal with all these changes and we all agreed all these countries are different. well i think again israel never chose its environments never decided that yes we'd like to be surrounded by police states and dictatorships because first of all these these regimes their interest is in perpetuating conflict because it's a great way for them to take world attention in the attention of their own civilians away from the real problems of the region so again there's nothing that most israelis would want more than to be surrounded by fellow democracies real

democracies and have free trade and peaceful relations this is a vision that's shared by everybody here so how to against it we have to make a separation between what we'd like and what may happen if we could push a button and that would happen they'll be great but the region is so complicated and societies are so divided amongst all that complicated. complicated you know you have run out of time many thanks to my guest today in london and in tel aviv and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cost topping. great for the full story we've got. the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers.

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