nature preserve. where the young generation transit in their ancestors. where the mysterious city of a deadlock world come the republic. of russia. welcome back you with r.t. and live from moscow on really soon sure the top stories now playing a revenge or an attempt at provoking ethnic tensions a russian nationalist icon is gunned down in the center of moscow the man who was a full on because no one had served time for kidnapping and killing a chechen girl. a nato official says it's perfectly justified to deliberately target the libyan leader while france and britain continue their campaign against the president of syria. russia will resume imports of e.u.

vegetables as soon as they guaranteed to be infection free that as well as in nato as missile defense plans goes into the w t o membership all of them being talked about at the latest high level meetings. now as the u.n. security council models a british french resolution over syria's crackdown on anti-government protesters people of l.a. and its guests discuss the violent unrest there and in yemen as both and with the situation in video a fiery debate that's coming your way right now. can . you.

tell ok welcome to cross not computable is it all about libya now with understanding the ongoing changes often the violence in the arab middle east what makes yemen in syria different from what's going on in tripoli and is the arab spring with all its hope for change only worthy for some in this a volatile region. can. cross talk protests in the arab world i'm joined by nineteen so heidi in london he's an associate fellow middle east and north africa program at chapman house also in london we go to industry mohammed who bhatti he's an opposition activist and a former advisor to yemeni prime ministers and in tel aviv we cross to yacov lopping he's a journalist for the jerusalem post all right gentlemen this is crosstalk and that means you can jump in anytime you want on that he might like to go to you first and go to the newest news here we still have members of nato really pushing very hard

for some form of intervention that's left unsaid right now in syria here and i started out by the program and we all working at these events now and like yemen and syria through the lens of libya is it a mistake to do that or is it correct to do that because we have to remember resolution nine hundred seventy three was a no fly zone and look where we are now. yes i think i think the west is looking at syria through through two lenses libya and iraq and that's what's learning learning division what what is needed is not a military intervention what is needed first is clarity in the position of sort of a clear statement. does bashar assad what the west thinks i do moment when he's getting is a very ambiguous uncertain. form of form

of confused formulation of words that he interprets as a form of support so he thinks the west want him to stay israel wants him to stay because israeli said to the girl you know whatever. the west the israelis the arabs have not told him yet what the in a clear way that his time is up he thinks that he has a license or a car to belong to do whatever he wants or kind of a license to kill. and do what it takes to remain in power because they want him to remain in power because not beyond him but that's what's needed mr ambassador i go to you in london it's interesting when i said is it we're is yemen between libya and iraq is that a good way of looking at it i think human is a special case to certain extent because in being on the just very close it's chairs about three thousand kilometers of border with saudi arabia and the saudis

and the g.c.c. have asked you know the west and our friends in the west. to be given a chance to sort of sort of the. saw shots are being called for you from saudi arabia and from the west itself unlike syria. libya where the saudis are happy with what the west is doing there also if i could if i can stay with you mr ambassador i mean looking at an article from the new york times yesterday u.s. is intensifying a secret campaign of yemen air strikes how does that play into it all i mean is the u.s. really particularly care who comes out on top in yemen as long as they can continue their air strikes against what they believe are terrorist party groups in operations in yemen yemen in the yemeni yemeni people fit into all of this while it's obvious that the u.s. are very much what it you know or what happened in that very important. area

and for sure they would like to see somebody who's in charge there who could continue the cooperation which which. has given to the west and i think the opposition and in your region you would give the they have reassured the united states that. they will cooperate perhaps better than the last as regards fighting terrorism and with any other you know. towards the stability of the region you know if i go to you in tel aviv where do you stand in all of this here the devil that you know that's we've heard on this program here i mean what about what's going on in yemen and i'd like to explain spread it out with syria to i mean how does and i'm not asking you to speak for the state of israel but i mean how do you think the israelis see what's going on here i mean the devil you know is better than when you don't know. well that's a reference of course to bashar us of the devil that we've known for quite

a few years and his father provided stability in the golan but on the other hand he also tightened relations with iran and with iran's work presented in southern lebanon isabella so i think that from israel's point of view clearly israel is interested in stability and a peaceful northern border but beyond that israel wouldn't be instructing or advising anybody in syria about how they should run their own country israel's israel's main interest is ensuring a stable northern border but i think while we're on the topic of syria i think syria is very different from libya and it's very different because it's a country which really i think most resembles iraq you're looking at a group of. several types several groups that are there you have the minority alawite who have been in power for decades since the sixty's at least and you have the majority sunni as who deeply resent being ruled by a minority and therefore most analysts here believe that if the us had regime falls

and that's looking to be the case more and more as time goes by it looks more like . that would likely be followed by a tarion bloodbath in syria as all of these groups the kurds the better when. all of these groups in syria made me battle it out and looked after their own interests and that of course made quite a tragic outcome should it actually come to pass then and to. yemen yes then because i just wanted to ask my friend in tel aviv would would be happy to see a functioning democracy in in syria because that's what you have said all i needed to the devil don't you want is the devil who go all rules you know that country in aware that could could could be kept under control the way he likes but not the way of the people of the country like saw would be a functioning democracy be in or alter. for the israelis if you want to reply to that then you have got to do is drag question for you are called. vote reply i'd

like you like you know what i would like to see for us happy to report there is nothing there's nothing that israel would like to see more than a fully democratic syria in syria that's ruled by the rule of the people and a peaceful syria a place where syrian people can express their political views and have economic opportunities because the rule of thumb has been that a peaceful democracy still see conflict with one another so yes absolutely. there is where we would like to see a democratic fully a really democratic syrian republican is no question about that the only question is will that happen one falls and that's not at all clear ok go ahead in line and go ahead well you know i just like the way you ask of the people that has become the sort of standard one in the in this revolution that syria is not libya is not.

is not egypt and and then you have. somebody saying jordan is not is not syria is not libya everybody is saying we're not we're not we're not but the question is the bottom line is that every single country is completely different and you cannot compare and you have done but once the idea of these regimes continuing house. one line has been crossed in which there is no more returned from from then it's a matter of time and cost. statement even like the one young just said he would like to see democracy but there's a but in there there's a hesitation. all these are your statements are only prolonging the process and making it more costly because we because. before more support that we wanted to bury because we could. here mr ambassador thanks

to you in ok. i passed the ambassador because you know i think we all agree obviously these countries are all different but there are some similarities and some countries get more support from the west and the united states specifically bahrain for example what to do with yemen because of the presence of al qaida there i mean there is one thing the key is a common denominator is how much the west wants to intervene and not intervene mr ambassador go ahead. yes that again is the that's the same of queer i mean i'm just now you know you wish i didn't work myself the question i have sort of put to you our call would with the saudis like to see a functioning democracy and. and that's the thing we're all here and the thing which is which is stalling i think change across perhaps i mean i have read many many reports and so on and people said what is stalling the whole change in yemen it has take a long long time and i've seen the this is the initiative which had in many many

flaws and perhaps to a certain extent it's cause there's cause this now sort of and diggers and very. grave burial where we are now in yemen you know we don't know where we're going to stay where are we just taking towards and the west unfortunately our friends our friends in order to be a man has been a little bit different from the rest of the of the countries you have been mentioning that we have got a group named as the friends of yemen which was formed here in london on the initiative of gordon brown the previous prime say in u.k. and their group are actually involved so our regional partners are world as well as international partners global partners and we have seen them. a big extent especially our western partners and friends they have been rather you know very slow in their action we have seen that they're pushed a lot of you know pleasure and live rage on on syria and as well on libya that we

have seen none of that being used on the yemen at all ok i. just want to go to the break i had in tel aviv. i just want to say what i what i was saying is not. a want to walk or see but rather what i was saying is democracy would clearly be best for the region and for the syrian people first and foremost and then for israel but but but it is a reference to will it actually happen and that's a legitimate question it's a legitimate question to ask whether once bashar assad falls whether a liberal liberal democracy or if you don't tell me how they come back to you after the break she said i'll come back to you after the break after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the arab protests they started. to take a. stand. it

was created to serve public interests to inform and to entertain. these days there's nothing easier than opening a new media outlets but there is nothing harder than revoking its license in case of corruption. san antonio ways. you can get involved in a community where you have one large corporation controlling the daily newspapers radio stations television stations the cable outlet or you tell me that that sounds like democracy the public opinion versus f.c.c. broadcast blues the marching wealthy british scientists some time to.

market finance come to. find out what's really happening to the global economy with mike's concert for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune in to the reports on our keep. cool keep sister just so. you can. welcome back to cross talk i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're talking about the changing air of the middle east. can see.

right gentlemen what i wanted to release to talk a little bit more about libya and the president that libya's. for the region but now the mayor you started out a democracy but for the region which i think is just as interesting go right ahead you want to make a comment before the break it's just that it reminded me of what i told my doctor and my wife that i'll stop smoking go on a diet and exercise but you know and. so i think this is clear. and it shows that the but is the key issue of what is means that this is the devil you know we've dealt with how we've dealt with russia has given us the ability so ok if you kills a few people it's ok for course there isn't but he follows it later it's ok if but but you know that's i think it's the. it's the long term interest of the west of the world even of israel that there should be democracy in the region but they

don't know it and they prefer to go over they know ok i'll go to you in line and you know and love bring up another country here but brain here i mean again democracy and civil society and western values and all these wonderful things that we keep hearing the west saying but you know bahrain isn't going to get that because well there is american military interest area and iran is just across the sea so that will always be far more important than any values that anyone in power will ever say ok you want to but you got to buy me out of my own problem go ahead do you move money i'll go ahead no i just want to say that it's not we're not talking about west and while you're here we're talking about universal by the case not something the west has invented or only or if you want i mean it doesn't exist everywhere and i can show you places ok i can if you want to go ahead and tell me ok yeah i guess again i feel that there's some sort of a gap in what i'm saying and how it's being perceived i'm sitting here in the middle east as an observer looking at what's going to happen and what the options

are so when i say we'll see replace the brutal bloodthirsty. dictatorship of the sides. nobody i think in who has any awareness of the history of this region would immediately say oh of course the minute us steps down it's obviously going to be replaced by a liberal democracy but bottom line is we don't know that's what we would like to happen but there's absolutely nothing wrong with from a strategic analytical point of view asking the questions who are the forces at play what is the structure of syrian society can can it survive a fall of this of this brutal dictatorship that's been in power for years without sectarian bloodbath i think anybody who does not ask these questions is unfortunately planting their head in the sand if these are questions that have to be asked by any responsible observer and i think that's a very important point to make ok mr ambassador i mean we hear there's a lot of i think. brought up a very good point about democracy and we heard also the term liberal democracy mr

ambassador can we have arab democracy islamic democracy why should it be liberal why can't it be the version that works for their societies. well the people have actually experimented with different regions and values and so on and that's why i agree with the demon he says you know these values of liberal. democrats has ation they're not related to the west only this is a humanity in our sort of heritage and that's why we shouldn't lead by him being western you know the end people have been watching across the world how the way forward for them to take share on and to actually take part in the in running their own daily affairs and we haven't nobody could invent something different all the while the be the expect the experiment and looks different from one country to another obviously and here in london the westminster democracy is quite different from the democracy back in the capital but still at the end you know on what when

you mean by democratization i mean to give people the ability that another chance to take share and to in running their own affairs and this is what people have been asking instead of helping you see the question we are facing now actually in the in the in the arab world is we have never had a sort of a parliamentary system most of the systems in the arab world or the political systems where a presidential system which which by looks like the this is the not not unlike the us system it's the so-called mixed system like in france and then you end up with a president who lack all rules like a thorough in on all the clues of the believers and he becomes a disport and a tyrant and he wouldn't know who wouldn't allow anybody else you know to take share in a collective sort of leadership and this is the question now because if one of the people who have been for long time trying to. put the question we should be

asked in our new york democratization in the arab world is moving towards a parliamentary sort of democracies like in israel or in turkey and so on with the islamic culture we have. but if somebody reaches only himself which is at the top of the author of the hat on then he would become a dead spot by the way of the cult so it goes and this is the thing now we were expecting to happen in egypt and unfortunately such a system problem interests them is it's what little monkeys in the arab world don't like ok. lame it looks like you are very much disagreeing there go right ahead when you know i'm i'm agreeing i was just thinking that the best and dictatorships are also part of world heritage and you have to make a choice which which which part of the heritage yourself you support it has nothing to do with being are or can be i mean it exists in north korea with three or more or less the same the same model. and people have said over the years that you

can't have democracy in central and central europe or eastern europe because of the slavs of the greek orthodox car conduit and the catholics are let in america can't do it and the spaniards can't do it you know it's always a good excuse to the truth the other model which is equally part of road heritage you know and you have to make a choice and i can change gears here you can find go to you know there's loggerheads now in the united nations security council how to move forward in dealing with yemen in and syria do you think that is a direct result of the botched job in libya in a really should the international community so we involved because when it got really involved in libya it turned into a quagmire. right it turned into a quagmire because no clear set of objectives were defined at the outset of the mission libya's sense of. hinges almost exclusively. and the minute that you leave the head of the monster so to speak in place then you

haven't solved the situation so i think you know in retrospect they should have either not got involved at all or or said the mission of getting rid of gadhafi but this sort of half assed attempt to intervene is just said it's setting up a permanent status quo is freezing the situation of a libya split into two one controlled by the rebels and one controlled by the regime i find that the relative silence of the west and what's happening in syria according to recent reports over one thousand three hundred unarmed civilians murdered by security forces of. a million of these forces run by his younger brother mark who is in charge of the fourth division and the republican guard whose main task is really to oppress the population i find the relative silence on that quite shocking really and disturbing i would. be would not let me just maybe just the reverse because dictators in the region now see oh look the west you know they

botched it in libya they might think twice about doing it again expression since countries like russia and china are saying no you we gave the united nations security council mandate and they abused it badly so a lot of dictators must be pretty pleased right now that maybe they're not going to be a victim of an invasion we're going to ask that of you know what do you think i'm being pretty good at what you give these these go ahead. to where it's too much of a luxury what what what your government proposed is ideal for for policymakers if you're not sure just keep away but the west has no choice but to get involved because even a policy of noninvolvement is in itself a very significant policy if you're clearly if you're if you're turning if you're turning away and you're telling someone this is a lot of our business you're. you can do what you like it is a policy for there's no such thing as a luxury of having no policy or people keeping up this new neutrality in the west towards what's happening there should not be viewed neutrality it's not yes we can

if you if you have to mr ambassador yes we have you know what is like me what we have to do be more specific go ahead unfortunately for the west you know as regards him and we have been. experimenting with the marketisation for the past twenty years and they have known for the for at least the past twenty years that they have been troubled there and they have been trying to help in or trying to encourage more participation a sort of a dialogue and reversal dialogue where they have been speaking that for the past you know three four years now when when we did you see initiative we see that they're going to allow this thing go forward without the needed dialogue because in yemen we have got big issues like the southern issue nor and like the truth is and many many other sectors of the opposition have been kept outside of having a say in the future for of formulation of the new regime so again there we find that in spite of there are those a community given by them on the sidelines of the meetings in september with the

meetings of the general assembly if they let nations the three countries like yemen and you care and saudi arabia committed themselves to words and national universal dialogue in yemen but in spite of that nobody is speaking about it now not because i don't know that these values are at the end it will be used only if you tell it to their own interests if it's against their interest then they find themselves in a dilemma ok are you the last word in this program do you think that israel and the united states and its western sky too used to having a very pliant arab world and they're just they're just caught flat footed in how to deal with all these strangers and we all agreed all these countries are different. well i think again it's never chose it's environments never decided that yes we'd like to be surrounded by police states and dictatorships because first of all these these regimes their interest is in perpetuating conflict because it's

a great way for them to take world attention in the attention of their own civilians away from the real problems of the region so again there's nothing that the most israelis would want more than to be surrounded by fellow democracies real democracies and have free trade and peaceful relations this is a vision that's shared by everybody here so how to but again we have to make a separation between what we'd like and what may happen if we could push a button and that would happen they'll be great but the region is so complicated and societies are so divided amongst that complicated. complicated run out of time many thanks to my guest today in london and in tel aviv and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time and remember. if. you want to.

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