but nonetheless has enormous foreign interest and i'm thinking of the united states and china do you like the term great game well i've well i think there's been an enormous interest in africa since about the one nine hundred eighty s. with the introduction of the neo liberal policies of the international monetary fund and world bank ever since then i think the situation in africa has become one in which which essentially we have not a neo colonialism we don't have a new colonialism what we have is essentially occupied territories territories occupied by the large corporations and supported by the international financial institutions and the aid agencies. and so what they are there to do is to reap as much benefits as they can avoid as much tax as they can and profiteer. the price that is paid by most africans is massive dispossession of their land massive unemployment massive decline in in in standard of living

and more hungry people than there ever were that's the situation which which africa currently face now clearly there are competitions between the different international powers for africa's natural resources and what is missing out of that element is the voice of the african citizens about well they need it's all very well having investments in africa but if the country or the people of the country don't benefit from it then it's no real no good to anyone ok those shareholders ok jenny if i go to you in washington now my would you agree with an assessment and a new occupation not even using the term neo colonialism not imperialism occupation go ahead. well of course not i don't agree with that. portrayal of africa at all i think that in fact we've seen a new dynamism significant growth in these economies

a rising middle class african civil society has grown has been more active it's holding its government leaders accountable to a larger degree so i think that the projection of africa especially over the last decade has been nothing but positive there obviously are areas in which we have you know backtracking zimbabwe would be one case in point but overall i don't think it's a picture that can be simply reduced to an economic argument you know there's been dynamism on the political front on the civil society front on economic engagement the rise of the rise of the middle class and that all speaks to. more complex picture than one that is reduced to economic ok robert if i can go to you in london where you. progress or backtracking. growing economies growing independence or occupation as we heard earlier in the program. well i really can't think of any

african countries as being occupied by corporations and i've traveled all over the continent and it seems to me that while there are one or two places where nobody's in charge like somalia pretty much everywhere else the governments are in charge like they are in most other countries now many of those governments are of very inefficient governments but by and large they've gotten a lot better over the past twenty years and when the dealings between corporations and african governments it's absolutely the african governments who call the shots if you go to somewhere like angola it doesn't matter whether you're an american oil company a british one or a chinese one you have to deal with the angolan government nobody disputes that they own the oil there and if you annoy them they kick you out as has happened to people for from both sides so that they're striking the bargains now to jendayi frazer point i think that lot of things have gotten better in the past ten years you've seen inflation has come down average incomes have gone up and

while it's maybe a bit premature to say that there's this massive new african middle classes i think the world bank did recently they're talking about a rise in the number of people who are earning between two and four dollars a day which is you know it's better than it was but it's still not what you'd call middle class in most places so i think it's a much more subtle nuanced thing than the going on and. then what rose suggests i think the idea that corporations are conquering the place is a bit of a caricature ok if you know it looks like it's two against one here you want to defend yourself go ahead oh no prob no problem you know i mean these are. you know well let me smear me say my words the reality is that there is massive amount of land gram there's more lovelessness across africa than there ever has been there is more hunger in africa than has ever been more be there's more unemployment than there's ever. ever been more importantly it's not just those physical resources

that people have been dispossessed job but the reality of the last thirty years in africa has been that increasingly our governments are more accountable to the international financial institutions the defense of the befits that the need is beneath his cañete as of the world and they are no more come to blows to to the to the international agencies than they are to citizens now i don't call that democracy what i see that as is this and the company led to the dispossession of their material livelihoods has been the dispossession of their political. gains of independence and i think you know it's all very well saying there's been huge growth rates but who is benefiting from those growth from those growth rates in fact the division between the rich and the poor has actually increased dramatically over the last thirty years and as for the world bank and their

apologists who talk about you know the middle classes beginning with two dollars a day a pound a day have you tried living in nairobi on a pound a day these guys are if they think this is the middle class is there must be be on some other planet i'm afraid ok jenny if i can go to you i mean there's a there's a lot of talk about foreign investment in africa and the chinese have gone there in an amazing super amazing way and there's one estimate by the year two thousand and twenty though the chinese will have over over two trillion dollars in investment there the united states will have approximately three hundred billion dollars i mean this is when i get to the term the great game i mean the the chinese see this is a very very interesting place to invest because there's a lot of baggage that they have to carry when they deal with the african leaders there's they're the same that would say the values gap is always bench in between maybe like the united states and china so. because i think there's a lot of things that western countries ask of. people on the ground certain rights

so what do you think about that i mean is it easier for the africans to borrow money and get investment from the chinese then from the west because of the baggage well i do think that the chinese have made a focused effort to invest in africa to increase their trade with africa mainly because they need to natural resources a fuel growth back home that has given african countries more options because they don't simply have to rely on the west and the conditionality that often comes with western assistance and with western loans and so i do think that there is in that sense it's a better environment for africa in terms of the choices that they have but i would also say that there i do agree that there is a bit of a values gap in that somewhat as whether china you know there's a policy of not interference in the affairs of african countries some would say that that's not an interest in the welfare of african people and i don't want to

make it seem like the west is great and china as you know doing bad things in africa that's not true it's more complex you know the west the united states and western european countries have a terrible history in africa in terms of some of the cold war policies and certainly the period of colonialism before that but there is this sense of which the west at least is more aligned it seems with civil society in african countries today then china has been you can see that of course in sudan you can also see that when the chinese were trying to export weapons into zimbabwe and civil society and workers in angola in south africa refused to offload those weapons going into zimbabwe and so it is there is a sense to which the west is more aligned with. the democratic forces in africa ok

robert if i could go to you i'm not sure that that's that's really that's really you could allow him to get away with that i mean just look at the downfall of mubarak and ben ali in egypt in tunis in respectively i mean those people who were funded to the hilt by the western governments these were despotic regimes with with a strong military and they have been overthrown not by civil society not by these these these new new missionaries of development the ngos but rather by a mass uprising and it hasn't been confined only to egypt and tunisia we've had libya we've had got ball and been in brooklyn a far so swaziland ethiopia uganda and so on even in south africa the recent south african police report demonstrated that they they recorded over five thousand mass uprisings in south africa per year over the last three years now that is an indication of the degree of opposition of of citizens not just not just civil

society or people who are losing the ramsgate real notion mark crissy ok brother job interviews we're going to break robert before we go to break i had a look at south africa's a democracy the government there is chosen by the people in free and fair elections but you know there's lots of people who are locally upset with local corruption and things like that outburst the arguments aside it's like another egypt waiting for something tighter to be able to play but i didn't say i did already see this juncture i'm going to jump in we're going to go to a break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the future of africa state party.

lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose. more than a month. one of the most extreme environments on the planet this is antarctica and people have to be aware that they're far away from civilization sean thomas discovers flight makes antarctica so special and attractive for many wildlife in

antarctica. and such an. expedition to the bottom of the earth. and you can see. the. welcome back to cross talk i'm people about to remind you we're talking about africa and its future. and you can see it's. ok and robert i want to go back to you in london right before we went to the break we were done discussion flared up about the values capital of the people as such a term that some people like to use i mean if it's been brought up at all that you know the west likes to say that it likes to. to support democracy and civil society

we've already heard on this program the worst is really. some very vicious very vicious dictators who have been overthrown lately so i you know one has to wonder or or understand why african countries will look to china because there are no strings attached or very few strings attached go ahead. well i mean the west baggs democracies but it's not always the top priority and certainly if you're talking in the middle east where you have the issues of oil and you have the issues of israel it tends not to be the top priority quite often stability is preferred china is a dictatorship local trade and back democracy anywhere and you wouldn't really expect them to i think the important point though is that when you have both western companies and chinese companies both western governments and the chinese government competing for influence in africa and that puts power with the african government because they can play the two off against each other and they can say to western firms if you don't offer better deals maybe the chinese will and they can

do the same to the chinese and that's what they're doing you see them doing it in a number of countries in angola and sometimes you see you know the chinese think that they've they've they've got something sewn up like they will back a dictator like year in sudan and i think that will give them permanent access to the oil wealth there and then suddenly cibot saddam splits in hoff and they're finding they very rapidly having to make friends with the the enemies of the guy they've been propping up so they're running into the same kinds of problems that that western government because it's interesting i mean going back to point you made earlier maybe we can all agree with robert b. that it's the people on the ground that suffer the most. well in indeed what i was saying about the uprisings that have been happening across the continent is a reflection of the discontent that is brewing and great and increasing across the continent but looking at china i mean i think you know people are often rather sort exaggerated about about the actions of china if you look at foreign direct

investment the united kingdom and usa are the leading foreign direct investment investment in in the in in africa followed behind by by france and by germany and all the asian tigers put together are still much smaller proportion of what germany germany's foreign direct investment is so you know i think and that's not because they're nice it's because they came to the show late they already all the oil fields all the mineral resources were already taken by the time china was ready to come into africa so they are being very smart in in in in offering all kinds of deals and offering offering loans which can be repaid in commodities and so on so they're being very smart about what what what it is but i'm i'm less convinced i mean i think the point is quite right that robert makes that that there is a room for negotiation but i'm surprised at how few african governments have actually use that leverage in negotiating i think on goal or certainly certainly

has one or two other countries might have but it in general it is not been the case and in fact they are strongly dissuaded from that doing so by by they are alliance with the big corporations and their and the u.s. and european governments as well as the japanese government's agenda if i go to you in washington it's very interesting point you are at the african governments have enough leverage actually to be able to negotiate a deal to their advantage or are they continuously continuously at a disadvantage when it comes because of a foreign investors and i mean east or west. well african governments have tremendous leverage to negotiate obviously they are in control of their countries and their resources i don't think they'd be cooperation to control everything and i think that the sort of broad brush picture that's being painted is in correct of africa africans and african governments as victims of some system that's external

to them they have responsibility they are making deals certainly there is it is true that i think the international financial institutions have tremendous soy in these countries the world bank and the i.m.f. but to the degree that they get their macro economic performance in place to the degree that they're more responsive to their own citizens into their own population that gives them the leverage with all sides external to the continent so i don't see african governments african leaders or african people and citizens as somehow victimized by the international system i think that they are fully in charge and can play this game of balancing our interests balancing of interests and that you know they have tremendous leverage that they could utilize if they would do so ok robert if i go to you if you were an african leader and you wanted to get foreign investment needed money would you go to the i.m.f.

or would you go to the chinese what which would you prefer if you put yourself in a position of being an african leader well enough doesn't do foreign investment may i.m.f. rescues. rescue you know rescue ok rescue by the chinese say they would invest ten billion dollars into the economy ask no questions. well i think what you would do is you would say what's the problem we're looking at if the problem is you want lots of people to come and do business in your country then you wouldn't pick either or you'd say we're open for business for both chinese and the americans and anyone else who wants to come for long if they abide by the law and the basic minimum standards and there are always going to be occasions where that doesn't happen and most african countries south of congo you'll find that anti chinese sentiment is a a pretty big political factor now that's not because they're the most influential it's because they knew i mean chinese investment in africa was almost nothing fifteen years ago and now it's about one hundred twenty billion dollars

a year so it's just suddenly happened really quickly and with it there's come a very large number of chinese people into africa we don't really know how many but it's certainly in the tens of thousands probably in the hundreds of thousands and there's a guy at the african development bank said that more chinese people have come to africa in the past ten years than europeans had in the past four hundred years so this is a big change and it's a very business it's something to do yourself to your i was going to just have to go to a place like you have a look at a place like marrow be in kenya where i come from there are more was zoom or more white europeans and americans sitting there making a buck today than there have been in any time in kenya's history and that's true all over africa in fact that doesn't include the road i just i don't really. have the chinese are tiny in proportion to that and certainly you don't see the scale of

of s.u.v.s or four wheel drives and so on that you that you see in the cities of africa which are all western in fact. you could see them through the nature of what is what is happening in africa everyone says that you know it's open for business. but if it's open for business who benefits from that most of the profits made by these companies who are investing in africa are exported many of these companies and there's been recent reports by the tax justice network which have demonstrated that that huge you molds even the un d p talks about twenty three billion dollars over the last year being being siphoned out illegally from from africa from all kinds of tax evasion schemes like offshore banks and so on i mean the scale of that is going on is unprecedented totally

those there's a lot of crap going on but you seem to be under the illusion that the the most important thing that a business does for a country is to do to make profits there and leave them there i mean that's that's not what they do it all and that part of it but if you're looking at the whole example at the top the difference that has been made by mobile phone companies in africa is completely transformed the way that the africans communicate with each other and the way that they do business with each other and if you look even at you know completely the traders who are not even slightly interested in the welfare of africans may still do a great deal of benefit to them you see in zambia for example since food chinese traders came into the mobile into the markets there the price of things like to chickenhawk of these are these are series one of the desert really going so there's generally you have the new benefit to the people you sell i want to ask jandowae a question we will come up gentlemen gentlemen please please make sure everyone's in here. there seems to be two different points of view here africa is exploited

now more than ever before or on the other side of the ledger it's actually speaking it's getting its act together in making progress where do you stand in the between these two stools of this program. i certainly agree that is getting its act together and it's making more progress that said i do think that part of their progress has to. b. to increase the number of jobs to reduce the income gap between the very wealthy and the very poor to actually make agriculture benefit the farmers and the population as a whole rather than export the food externally and giving her large tracts of land to external companies or governments so that they can export food to their population so i think that it's a very complex picture but what i the bottom line is that africans are more in charge of setting the agenda and africa they have the rules they are responsive more responsive to their populations traders in africa do not want to compete with

chinese workers and so they are holding their governments to account businessmen in africa do not want to compete with bad deals given to chinese companies or even western companies that are very opaque so they're pushing for greater transparency and that's because there's a dynamism within african populations and civil society in sub-saharan africa in particular i agree that north africa stability was more of a priority i've always said that there was no democratization and that's why north africa has collapsed so significantly you do not see mass uprisings across africa what you do see is populations demonstrating within the framework framework of a greater rule of law and greater democratization it's not one hundred percent but it's certainly more than it was ten years ago and so i'm on the side more progress . maybe if you last more last ten seconds cause that goes to an ox are going well climate. that she's living on but the reality is that poor people in africa there

are more hungry people there more lot of those people who's great to unemployment that's the sum total of the achievement of course thank you very much. we've run out of time many thanks to my guest today in oxford washington and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t.c. next time. remember cross talk rules.

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our team tonight mate who admits it launched the airstrike that killed nine civilians in a tripoli so while british taxpayers wary of reckless spending how did the bill for three months of bloody stalemate. japan gets a grilling in vienna members of the international nuclear watchdog gathered to look at ways to avoid another fukushima crisis while people don't feel safe even kilometers away from the exclusion of. every head of state once a second but it's the people who have the final word so says president vet if he still hasn't announced whether he'll stand again but did rule out a faceoff with prime minister putin. and a russian mother faces court over the death of a child from pneumonia says she failed to call in and instead turned to the internet for help.

monday evening here in moscow you're watching r t with me kevin owen and nato has admitted its forces killed up to nine civilians in a bungled airstrike on a poor neighborhood in tripoli anger over the incident among libyans was heightened when the country's health ministry announced that the intervention had so far left more than eight hundred civilians dead. reports now from the capital tripoli you may find some of the images coming up in a report disturbing. to. mohammad that hurt his extended family used to be one of the biggest in the neighborhood and they tears rolling down old files in use by his father one of his brothers a sister and her own family mohammed shows us the picture of little jumana his niece taken on his mobile phone just days before he pulled her dead body from wanda

i didn't really hear i woke up when i heard an explosion she started to piece of the roof fell on me i ran immediately to see how my family is and many were dead my mother survived another brother is in a coma and we don't know when or if he will recover that how does that not reach they've been living in this agreement district entry fully it's home to many hours income people most from one family this is just a regular six quarter why does the populated built up area this is what used to be there had his house the three story buildings are reduced in ruins in just moments after being hit in a missile strike home on mohammed's brother who survived says they will never forgive or forget what nato has done to them destroying their lives and hence. they should take responsibility for their wrongdoing and nato has responded with an apology. intended target during off truck in tripoli.