hello this is our team from moscow it's kevin owen here with a headline update for you nato admits it launched the strike that killed nine civilians in a tripoli something while british taxpayers are weary of reckless spending out of the bill for three months bloody stalemate. the international atomic energy agency is expected to slam japan for poor handling of the fukushima crisis the nuclear safety form opens in vienna and improving safety regulations and try to prevent a repeat of the japanese. europe's finance ministers postponed a decision

a fresh bailout for greece they say more starting is needed to become feeling shaken but rather protests against any cuts is to. come your way just to head off these people of ellis guest discuss whether the international presence in libya and other african countries is really likely to improve life for the people who live there crosstalk went on to the south a minute from now. we'll . bring you the latest in science and technology from. the future avar. you can.

follow him and welcome in rostock computor all about africa in the new great game outside interest in this continent is immense rich in natural resources and a growing middle class china the us europe and other powers are scrambling for influence and whilst there can africa avoid another wave of imperialism and neocolonialism. to keep. the future of africa i'm joined by robert guest in london he's a business editor at the economist and author of the book the shackled continent africa past present and future in washington we cross to jendayi frazer she's a professor at the carnegie mellon university and in oxford we have produced mangi he's editor in chief of the pangas who can news all right this is cross lady and gentlemen that means you can jump in anytime you want and i know they have difference of opinion so i want my viewers to see it if i go to you first in oxford

i do like to go the term africa in the new great game the scramble for influence because a lot of people are saying this right now as africa is stepping up its development some countries are getting ahead while some are not but nonetheless there's enormous foreign interest and i'm thinking of the united states and china do you like the term great game. well i think there's been an enormous interest in africa since about the one nine hundred eighty s. with the introduction of the near liberal policies of the international monetary fund and world bank ever since then i think the situation enough has become in which which essentially we have not a neo colonialism with a new colonialism what we have is essentially occupied territories territories occupied by the large. operations and supported by the international financial institutions and the aid agencies and and so what they are there to do is to reap as much benefits as they can avoid as much tax as they can and profits

here and the price that is paid by most africans is massive dispossession of their land massive unemployment massive decline in in in in standard of living and more hungry people than there ever were that's the situation which which africa currently face now clearly there are competitions between the different international powers for africa's natural resources. and what is missing out of that element is the voice of the african citizens about well they need it's all very well having investments in africa but if the country or the people of the country don't benefit from it then it's no really no good to anyone ok those shareholders ok jenna if i go to you in washington am i would you agree with an assessment and a new occupation not even using the term neo colonialism not imperialism occupation go ahead. well of course not i don't agree with the. portrayal of

africa at all i think that in fact we've seen a new dynamism significant growth in these economies a rising middle class african civil society has grown has been more active is holding its government leaders accountable to a larger degree so i think that the projection of africa especially over the last decade has been nothing but positive there obviously are areas in which we have you know backtracking zimbabwe would be one case in point but overall i don't think it's a picture that can be simply reduced to an economic argument you know there's been dynamism on the political front on the civil society front on economic engagement the rise of our supreme nors the rise of the middle class and that all speaks to a more complex picture than one that is reduced to economic ok robert if i can go

to you in london where you came you know in this era of progress or backtracking. growing economies growing independence or occupation as we heard earlier in the program. well i really can't think of any african country that is being occupied by corporations and i've traveled all over the continent and it seems to me that while one or two places where nobody's in charge like somalia pretty much everywhere else the governments are in charge like they are in most other countries now many of those governments are very inefficient governments but by and large they've gotten a lot better over the past twenty years and when the dealings between corporations and african governments it's absolutely the african governments who call the shots if you go to somewhere like angola it doesn't matter whether your an american oil company a british one or a chinese one you have to deal with the angolan government nobody disputes that they only oil that if you annoy them they kick you out as has happened to people for from both sides so that they're striking the balkans now. jendayi

frazer is point i think a lot of things have gotten better in the past ten years you've seen inflation has come down average incomes have gone up and while it's maybe a bit premature to say that there's this massive new african middle classes i think . the world bank did recently they're talking about a rise in the number of people who are earning between two and four dollars a day which is you know it's better than it was but it's still not what you'd call middle class in most places so i think it's a much more subtle and nuanced thing than that's going on and. then what rose suggests i think the idea that corporations are conquering the place is a bit of a caricature ok for those it looks like it's true against one here you want to defend yourself. whole new group no problem in america i mean these. are you know well let me smear me say my words but the reality is that there is massive

amount of land grab there's more than listeners across africa than there ever has be there's more hunger in africa than is ever the there is more unemployment and there's a big. ever been more importantly it's not just those physical resources that people have been dispossessed of but the reality of the last thirty years in africa has been that increasingly our governments are more accountable to the international financial institutions the defeats the befits that the need is beneath his cañete as of the world and they are no more cold tubes to to the to the international agencies than they are to citizens now i don't call that democracy what i see that as is this and they're coping led to the dispossession of their material livelihoods has been the dispossession of their political. gains of independence and i think you know it's all very well saying there's been

huge growth rates but who is benefiting from those growth from those growth rates in fact the division between the rich and the poor has actually increased dramatically over the last thirty years and as for the world bank and their apologists who talk about you know the middle classes beginning with two dollars a day a pound a day have you tried living in nairobi on a powder day these guys are if they think this is the middle class is there there must be we be on some other planet i'm afraid ok ken if i can go to you i mean there's a there's a lot of talk about foreign investment in africa and the chinese have gone there in an amazing super amazing way and there's one estimate by the year two thousand and twenty two the chinese will have over over two trillion dollars in investment there the united states will have across really three hundred billion dollars i mean this is when i get to the good term the great game i mean that the chinese see this is a very very interesting place to invest because there's

a lot of baggage that they have to carry when they deal with the african leaders there's very little the same would say the values gap it is always bench in between if you like united states and china so-called because i think there's a lot of things that western countries asco they deny people on the ground certain rights so what do you think about that i mean is it easier for their africans to borrow money and get investment for the chinese than from the west because of the baggage. well i do think that the chinese have made a focused effort to invest in africa to increase their trade with africa mainly because they need to natural resources to fuel girls back home that has given african countries more options because they don't simply have to rely on the west and the conditionality that often comes with western assistance and with western loans and so i do think that there is in that sense it's a better environment for africa in terms of the choices that they have but i would

also say that there i do agree that there is a bit of a value scout in that some would ask whether china you know there is the policy of non interference in the affairs of african countries some would say that that's not an interest in the welfare of african people and i don't want to make it seem like the west is great and china as you know doing bad things in africa that's not true it's more complex you know the west united states and western european countries have a terrible history in africa in terms of some of the cold war policies and certainly the period of colonialism before that but there is a sense of which the west at least is more aligned it seems with civil society in african countries today then china has been you can see that of course in sudan you can also see that when the chinese were trying to export weapons into zimbabwe and civil society and workers in angola in south africa refused to

offload those weapons going into zimbabwe and so it is there is a sense to which the west is more aligned with the democratic forces in africa ok robert if i could go and you know i'm not sure no that's not really that's really going to get away with it i mean just look at the downfall of mubarak and ben ali in egypt in tunis. respectively i mean those people who were funded to the hilt by the western governments these were despotic regimes with with a strong military and they've been overthrown not by civil society not by these these these new new missionaries of development the n.g.o.s but rather by a mass uprising and it hasn't been confined only to egypt and tunisia we've had libya we've had carbone been in brooklyn a far so swaziland ethiopia uganda and so on even in south africa the recent south african police report demonstrated that they they recorded over five thousand

mass uprisings in south africa per year over the last three years now that is an indication of the degree of opposition of of citizens not just not just civil society of people who are losing the ramsgate real notion more crissy ok robert just before we go to the break robert before we go to break i had a look at south africa's a democracy the government there is chosen by the people in free and fair elections i yell a lot of people who are locally upset with local corruption and plain violent outburst the argument that's like another egypt waiting for something but. i didn't say i'd already answered this juncture i'm going to jump in we're going to go to a break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the future of our biggest day r.t. . if.

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welcome back across a guy people about to remind you we're talking about africa and its future. king. ok and robert i want to go back to you in london right before we went to the break we were done discussion flared up about values gap that like people a term that some people like to use i mean it's been brought up that you know the west likes to say that it likes to project to support democracy and civil society i've already heard on this program the west is really back some some very vicious very vicious dictators have been overthrown lately so i you know one has to wonder or or understand why african countries will look to china because there are no strings attached or very few strings attached go ahead. i mean the west bags democracies but it's not always the top priority and certainly if you're talking in

the middle east where you have the issues of all where then you have the issues of israel it tends not to be the top priority quite often stability is preferred china is a dictatorship local to them back to more closely anywhere and you wouldn't really expect them to i think the important point though is that when you have both western companies and chinese companies both western governments and the chinese government competing for influence in africa that puts power with the african government because they can play the two off against each other and they can say to western firms if you don't offer better deals maybe the chinese will and they can do the same to the chinese and that's what they're doing you see them doing it in a number of countries in angola and sometimes you see you know the chinese think that they've they've they've got something sonar like they will back a dictator like basheer in sudan and they think that will give them permanent access to the oil wealth there and then suddenly sudan sudan splits in half and they're finding they very rapidly having to make friends with the the enemies of the guy they've been propping up so they're running into the same kinds of problems

that the western governments because it's interesting going back to a point you made earlier maybe we can all agree with robert it's the people on the ground that suffer the most. well in indeed what i was saying about the uprisings that have been happening across the continent is a reflection of the discontent that is brewing and great and increasing across the continent but looking at china i mean i think you know that the people are often rather silly exaggerated about about the actions of china if you look at foreign direct investment the united kingdom and usa are the leading foreign direct investment investment in in the in in africa followed behind by by france and by germany and all the asian tigers put together are still much smaller proportion of what germany germany's foreign direct investment is so you know i think and that's not because they're nice it's because they came to the show late

the already all the oil fields all the mineral resources were already taken by the time china was ready to come into africa so they're being very smart in in in offering all kinds of deals and offering offering loans which can be repaid in commodities and so on so they're being very smart about what what what it is but i'm i'm less convinced i mean i think the point is quite right that robert makes a bet that there is a room for negotiation but i'm surprised at how few african governments have actually use that leverage in negotiating i think angola certainly certainly has a mile or two other countries might have but it in general it is not been the case and in fact they are strongly dissuaded from that doing so by by the alliance with the with the big corporations and they're there and the u.s. and european governments as well as the japanese government agenda if i go to you in washington is very interesting point if you are at the african governments have

enough leverage actually to be able to negotiate a deal to their advantage or are they continuously continuously at a disadvantage when it comes visa before investors i mean east or west. well african governments have tremendous leverage to negotiate obviously they are in control of their countries and their resources i don't think they'd be corporations control everything and i think that the sort of broad brush picture that's being painted is correct of africa africans and african governments as victims of some system that's external to them they have responsibility they are making deals certainly there is it is true that i think the international financial institutions have tremendous away in these countries of the world bank and i.m.f. but to the agree that they get their macro economic performance in place to the degree that they're more responsive to their own citizens into their own population that gives them the leverage with all sides external to the continent so i don't

see african governments african leaders or african people and citizens as somehow victimized by the international system i think that they are fully in charge and can play this game of back balancing of interests. interests. that you know they have tremendous leverage that they could utilize if they would do so ok robert if i go to you if you were an african leader and he wanted to get foreign investment needed money would you go to the i.m.f. or would you go to the chinese what which would you prefer if you put yourself in a position of being an african leader well enough doesn't do foreign investment they are a match for rescues ok let's say where you rescue less you know rescue ok rescue by the chinese say they can't billion dollars in the economy ask questions. but i think what you would do is you would say what's the problem we're looking at the

problem is you want lots of people to come and do business in your country then you would pick either or you'd say we're open for business for both chinese and the americans and anyone else who wants to come through on that they are guided by the law and the basic minimum standards and they're always going to be occasions where that doesn't happen and in most african countries south of congo you'll find that chinese sentiment is a pretty big political factor now that's not because they're the most influential it's because they knew i mean chinese investment in africa was almost nothing fifteen years ago and now it's about one hundred twenty billion dollars a year so it's just suddenly happened really quickly and with it has come a very large number of chinese people into africa we don't really know how many but it's certainly in the tens of thousands probably in the hundreds of thousands and there's a guy at the african development bank so i put more chinese people have come to africa in the past ten years than europeans had in the past four hundred years so this is a big change and it's a very business it's something to lose yourself to gross guy i just have to go to

a place like you have got to look at a place like nairobi in kenya where i come from there are more was more more white europeans and americans sitting there making a buck today than there have been in any time in history and that's true all over africa in fact you know dartmouth college we've got zero interest actually. the chinese are tiny in proportion to that. and certainly you don't see the scale of of s.u.v.s or four wheel drives and so warm that you see in the cities of of africa which are all western in fact. you can see them sort of nature of what is what is happening in africa everyone says that you know it's open for business. but if it's open for business who benefits from that most of the profits made by these

companies who are investing in africa are exported many of these companies and there's been recent reports by the tax justice network which have demonstrated that that huge you molds people you indeed he talks about twenty three billion dollars over the last year being being siphoned out illegally from from africa from all kinds of tax evasion schemes like offshore banks and so on i mean the screen all of that is going on is press the broke out italy those has a lot of that going on but you seem to be under the illusion that the the most important thing that a person has does for a country is to make profits there and leave them i mean that's that's not what they do it all a matter of that but if you're looking at the whole example of the talk of difference that had been made by mobile phone companies in africa it's completely transformed the way that that africans communicate with each other and the way that

they do business with each other and if you look even at you know completely. traders who are not even slightly interested in the welfare of africans may still do a great deal of benefit in zambia for example since proves chinese traders came into them over into the markets there the price of things like sort of chicken heart of these are these are series one of the does a really good example generally have little benefit to the people who so i want to ask a question we welcome gentlemen gentlemen please please make sure everyone's in here good there seems to be two different points of view here africa is exploited now more than ever before or on the other side of the ledger it's actually speaking it's getting its act together and making progress where do you stand in the between these two schools of this program. i certainly agree that is getting its act together and it's making more progress that said i do think they're part of their progress has to. b. to increase the number of jobs to reduce the income gap between the very wealthy

and the very poor to actually make agriculture benefit the farmers and the population as a whole rather than export the food externally and giving the large tracts of land to external companies or governments so that they can export food to their population so i think that it's a very complex picture but what i the bottom line is that africans are more in charge of setting the agenda and africa they have the rules they are response of more responsive to their populations traders in africa do not want to compete with chinese workers and so they are holding their governments to a coward business in africa do not want to compete with bad deals given to chinese companies or even western companies that are very opaque so they're pushing for greater transparency and that's because there's a dynamism within africa in populations and civil society in sub-saharan africa in particular i agree that north africa stability was more of

a priority i've always said that there was no democratization and that's a lie north africa has collapsed so significantly you do not see mass uprisings across africa what you do see is populations demonstrating with in the former framework of a greater rule of law and greater democratization it's not one hundred percent but it's certainly more than it was ten years ago and so i'm on the side more progress . if you last more last ten seconds because the b.b.c. when i go climate i don't know that she's living alone but the reality is that poor people in africa there are more hungry people or more london's people whose great unemployment that's the sum total of the achievement of course thank you very much you know it's all right we've run out of time many thanks my guest today in our washington and in london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are he scenics time in. remember cross talk rules.

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