no joel she lights on the good. video on demand. the old. omission street now with the palm of your. machine. here with our to you live from moscow our top stories fresh violence erupts in the greek capital as protesters trying to root out lawmakers from entering parliament clash with the police you can see live pictures here from athens as a top winning protesters and security forces riot police clashing tear gas rocks being thrown off throughout the afternoon here it's the second day of on grass which was triggered by new austerity measures to be voted on later on wednesday.

the greek economic turmoil is the first challenge for the new international monetary fund chief christine lagarde the first woman to head the organization she also faces the tough task of fighting off the perception that the i am out is biased in favor of western countries. and fears grow that unrest in syria might drive the militant group hezbollah to move weapons and stored there to london on threatening to stoke up further trouble in the region meanwhile israel is reported to the point new missile defense systems near its border with lebanon. and our debate program cross talk with peter lavelle is next here on r.t. . you can. stay. low and welcome the cross-talk i'm peter lavelle freedom flotilla two point zero

four thousand protocol is to be an activist from twenty two countries are said to join freedom flotilla two in a bid to break israel's five year blockade on gaza where one point five million palestinians live what we manged to be seen is whether they'll be a violent repeat of last year's flotilla to gaza. can. cross talk a second freedom flotilla i'm joined by the art of cards in jerusalem he's a military correspondent and defense analyst for the jerusalem post also in jerusalem we have chris gunness he is a spokes person for the united nations relief and works agency a neutral humanitarian organization with over ten thousand workers on the ground in gaza whose neutral work is based on the united nations charter and universal declaration and in chicago we cross to ali abunimah he is co-founder of the electronic intifada and author of one country a bold proposal to end the israeli palestinian impasse hari gentlemen this is going

to means cross-talk rules in effect but first let's have a look at what is called the second attempt to break the gaza blockade. a dangerous provocation or a bold move in defiance of a blockade freedom flotilla two sets a sails for troubled waters again only a year after its predecessor is tragic attempt to deliver humanitarian aid to the gaza strip ignoring grave warnings from the israeli government the convoys carrying some one thousand activists from twenty countries determined to break an israeli blockade of the palestinian territory but after the recent political breakthrough in cairo and the easing of passage through the rougher crossing on the egyptian border to allow passage of people and goods the flotilla campaign will look more like an attempt to talk on television and corner its security forces into aggression despite last year's debacle that's online activists killed and forty more wounded israeli government has vowed to continue intercepting any vessels that proceed to gaza shores into security concerns we've already. gone for

more than four miles from the role. hundreds of tons of weapons were simply through most primitive. weapons and more. from the sea but this time it seems to be more about a tug of war between israel and pro palestinian forces as well as israel's resolve to avoid a presence that would undermine its grip on gaza middle to see you know this is over there and the u.s. has made it clear that it stands by its traditional ally and has even more of american citizens to stay clear of the second photo were to gaza we do not believe that it went to it is a necessary or useful for to try to seize the people of gaza and we'll see it's not for there to be for me to was tried to convey actions by entering into israeli waters and creating a situation in which these are really scared the right to do found them so.

nonetheless the organizers of the flotilla remain determined even in the face of possible violence it would seem that breaking the blockade of gaza is the key to alleviating will the united nations says has led to a humanitarian crisis in gaza. danes . are suffering. the second freedom flotilla to gaza faces many of the same political and security issues of the first portela the palestinians and their international supporters demand an end to what they deem as the legal blockade of gaza but israel sounds more isolated and stricken with gazans than ever choose to avoid the kind of catastrophic p.r. it received over its confrontation with the first photo or will it remain as i'm compromising about the security as it's always been my charney for across our team . ok chris if i can go to you in jerusalem and preparing for this

program you get two different points of view what is this is this a political provocation or is it a humanitarian mission because depending on what you want to read in western media it's one of the other and mostly it is a provocation how do you react to that being on the ground and knowing gaza so well . well the position of the united nations relief and works agency for which i speak is very clear on this if there were no humanitarian crisis if there weren't a crisis in almost every aspect of life in gaza there'd be no need for the fertility if there were a blockade there'd be no need for the fertility let's look at the basic humanitarian facts on the ground ninety five percent of all water in gaza is undrinkable forty percent of all disease is water boarding is caused by poor water forty five point two percent of the labor force is unemployed eighty percent a dependency a tripling of the abject poor since the blockade there is clearly

a crisis in every aspect of life in gaza we're trying to build schools one hundred new schools big problems there there's a crisis of education there's a crisis of public health millions of gallons of untreated sewage floating into the sea every day because there's a crisis of public health let's get rid of this blockade and there be no need for taylor ok i'm going to you are so in jerusalem so there is a need for this photo just for more awareness reasons than any other purpose according to what christians said. well i think that in general the people of gaza definitely to some extent are suffering but i think that there are different ways to be able to insert humanitarian aid to the gaza strip we saw recently the decision by the egyptian government to open up the rougher crossing in gaza shares a lengthly border with egypt which they would be able to use if anyone were to ask to be able to transfer goods from egypt into gaza israel maintains land crossings

that are used almost on a daily basis for close to two hundred trucks if not more to transfer medicine supplies and humanitarian goods to the gaza strip and as chris mentioned before schools are being built in gaza israel's approved dozens of schools for some reason is dragging its feet and not working and taking action on some of those permits that it's been approved to move forward with inserting the building equipment but since last year. israel is definitely lacks up the restrictions on the gaza strip i don't think that this is the way to do it we've seen most recently in february was the victoria ship interest caring a rainy in arms sophisticated missiles in radars to hamas in the gaza strip israel has said it cannot allow for ships to sail freely to gaza because they will carry weapons for hamas which will then use them to attack israeli cities and therefore if you really care for the palestinians use either egypt or israeli courts and land crossings to bring in humanitarian goods why you do it through the sea when israel

says it won't allow it to happen because of its security unless you really are seeking a provocation ok only if i go to you in chicago while it is botella under any circumstances at all bring arms as part of a humanitarian and devore i mean this is the cities it's o'connor intuitive i don't understand why the israelis are so upset about this unless they just don't want to see a precedent to be set where a flotilla can break the blockade that's what it's all about not security breaking the blockade is that right or wrong. well nobody believes that there are going to be arms on these ships not even the israeli government and as our it's reported yesterday and i quote verbatim security officials and foreign ministry representatives informed the cabinet on sunday that israel has no information indicating that terrorists or anyone affiliated with a terror group is planning to take part in the flip tiller and according to the same israeli government sources. the flip to the participants will be european

peace activists and american peace activists and others presumably not interested in file and and will quote present a more difficult public diplomacy challenge so not even the israelis believe that this flotilla is a threat and in fact it's a mistake to reduce this to an issue of humanitarian aid because for example the us boat to gaza is not carrying humanitarian aid it's carrying only letters written by americans directed to people in gaza letters of solidarity and support the u.s. boat to gaza is eighty seven year old holocaust survive a heady epstein pulitzer prize winning american novelist alice walker and a number of other americans all of whose names and faces are available on the u.s. boat to gaza website so we have the absurd situation now where israeli commandos have training to prevent an eighty seven year old holocaust survivor from

reaching the gaza strip and the real problem here is that israel is trying to present the flu tilla as a military threat to the military situation when absolutely nobody not even the israeli government believes that and the point about the blockade and why people are seeking to break it is because israeli officials themselves for example israeli foreign minister avigdor lieberman in june. last year have stated clearly that the purpose of the blockade is collective punishment and political operation that's a very very important point here if i go to you how do you react to that because it is we hear this a lot from members of the international community this is collective punishment against the people of gaza how do you respond to that. i don't know personally i find it to be a little absurd you know israel pulled out of the gaza strip in two thousand and five with a hand extended for peace pulled out of the international borders instead of having

the houses they left behind and the settlements that are left behind to be used to to build agriculture and to build industry hamas which mildly took over gaza in two thousand and seven decided to continuously attack israel with reigning arms that it attains through ships that try to sail to gaza or to egypt and smuggle as he wasn't into the gaza strip he pulled from the tunnels that titles under under under under under lasorda israel as a commission so i think that it's just me and i think that once again i think all day for the next year is a religious fight is because now israel is a sovereign states has the right and israel is a sovereign state has israel as a part of protests resistance and to protect its gaza public in this way i want to go to prison before the break i said isn't i want to go to chris before the break we just heard an interesting comment chris chris i did go to chris please before we go to the break you why police leaving the house before the break came in how much christmas how much is how much autonomy does faith the gazans have ok if israel

isn't in control very little because although you are close enough that although mr cutts is talking precisely there's been no exports of gossip in the month of may there is a there's a blockade there is an occupation israel controls the land the sea in the airspace it international that means there is no key patient going on and if i could just respond to one thing that mr katz said earlier that people like you and so dry good for your good those who lose with such a young life till christmas to counsel utilized the here the police you speak for those of us who are used to yeah because katz's i don't see how you start your day using water without your we've just heard from him it's a classic of the genre the idea that under is striking it's a gentleman i mean right now we'll continue this gosh discussion right where we left off after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the. well tell us they would argue. that you can. see.

twenty years ago the largest country in the observers are places of. sled was how did you come up and began a journey. where did it take. if. you're going to.

say. this street still keeps its secrets but now it's time to reveal that the soviet files. if you can see. the full. welcome back across non-computer all about her mind you were talking about freedom flotilla to point out. you can see. ok chris you're starting to farley the break started to explain the situation of. if i could say the relationship between israel and gaza i mean how much economy does the gaza strip have been is it just israel want to determine the economic

development of it i mean will it be there seems to be this intend to control everything that is done in gaza and make sure that it's no threat to israel and it can have no independent policy of its own but i did domestically or or with other palestinians or abroad. thank you peter give me this chance i think you've said it all israel is patient because israel controls the land sea and air space of effective control means it's not patient but if i could address something which mr katz said earlier about why not bring things in through russia i'm afraid this is yet another example of his evidence free mode of journalism completely lacking any acquaintance with the situation on the ground i've actually been through the rough across it's one small road going north it's one small road going south if you like need to feed seven hundred fifty thousand people each day it is hopelessly inadequate that is why we say to israel allow us to do our humanitarian through the poorest of the few weeks ago severely european trying to finish

a trail the costing is heard hundreds of tons of humanitarian goods to gaza through iraq just a few weeks ago if you're not sales is the way to run trains with. my general knowledge we hear you are seeking a job here in gaza in chicago to gentlemen i'm going to go to chicago right now i'm going to chicago is how is the blockade of gaza counterproductive for israel's own interests how would you address that because it doesn't seem to give israel and score any points whatsoever ok what does it get from blockading gaza. well let's step back for a minute and if you listen to what jaco katz says he's representing very well the israeli government viewpoint it's very clear what the agenda is the really agenda is to disconnect gaza which is part and parcel of historic palestine and its people

to disconnect it completely seal it and to dump it on to egypt that's why he's saying why don't you bring the goods through egypt but what is gaza really it is a giant prison for one point six million people eighty percent of them refugees from towns and villages destroyed towns and villages that the in what is now israel and israel wants nothing to do with them for one reason only and that's because they're not jews that's the fundamentally racist nature of this blockade because if the people of gaza who are native and indigenous to you know what mr katz would call israel israel would open the prison gates of gaza and welcome them home so this is why the blockade is fundamentally political fundamentally of racist and fundamentally yes you're going to have a chance to respond seize them israel wants to throw them all into egypt and

they're not palestinians only parts of egypt they're part of palestine and i know lisa can use something like your response right now you have to go ahead in jerusalem go ahead go ahead replied the alley i apologize but i think i'll use completely falsifying the fact that israel has continuously offered the palestinians in negotiations a palestinian state built on an established land in the house or strip in the west bank with continuity in a way of connecting those two parts with the employer is this is really. pretty new with these guys if there are twenty harrisson for the arrow that nation is to seriously set his interest was the truth i've always written to reason is because the surest. say that. rolls down. because they are right this gentleman we're all talking over there else where he can go ahead. go ahead i want chris to go you are saying something i have an example i. have going here is your chris christie gentlemen israel has the right into this it's ok we'll talk about it you can begin

to build a state this idea that gaza can become part of a state and that israel is opening its arms wide to that possibility simply is not borne out in reality to begin with the policy of isolating blockading both politically and economically of course does not sit with what mr katz is saying you cannot possibly think that you could have a viable state in the situation in gaza is in there is a policy of collective punishment and that has been condemned as a violation of international that's why israel is finding itself to legitimize because it's on the wrong side of international law if israel wanted to legitimize itself and as a member state of the u.n. i sincerely hope that israel does and i would support the process then it has to get on the right side of international law that means lifting this blockade which is a violation of international law it is a collective punishment and it will send the idea that collective punishment can

somehow lead to statehood is an absurdity to cats knows that gentlemen gentlemen we have to be fair here you go ahead you know go ahead because it's two against one here go ahead i want to give you the terror time go ahead. i'm in the middle of course maybe it's all right but i'll say that. that that that. if you look at the numbers in the fact that the term blockade is just it's not accurate because if you look over the past year and past half a year at least over ten thousand to fifteen thousand palestinians have been allowed into israel for medical treatment trucks over two hundred crossing to gaza and daily basis in israel sea blockade has been confirmed agree or firmed it approved by pa international organizations by the united nations and by different allies of israel. as it was fairly soon since the security services right now a guy here for a guy who you can look at this and you'll see i mean you bring up a very interesting one ali and i go to you is the blockade legal or illegal under international law let's clear this out go ahead ali i really don't think in chicago

you find please go ahead on personal helping me in chicago go ahead i would think that the united nations would have spokespeople ali go ahead. well if mr katz will allow me the international committee of the red cross last june. the sea. to the sea the siege and the blockade is illegal numerous un and other bodies have declared that it's illegal and of course israeli officials themselves have stated that the purpose is collected collective punishment i can read you the baits in quotes from the israeli foreign minister avigdor lieberman among others saying the puppets for example is to apply political pressure to force palestinians to release the single israeli prisoner of war held in the gaza strip which understandable that israel might want him freed but it's absolutely illegal under

international law to apply collective punishment to a civilian population in order to free prisoners of war but that's what israeli officials themselves explain that they're doing and these are crimes by the way punishable under international law under the third and fourth geneva conventions so we don't need to even wait for what mr gun is so other u.n. officials have to say i have to say we can just listen to israeli officials like avigdor lieberman explaining the punitive and illegal intent of this blockade and as i mentioned and i stress this israeli officials themselves say one thing in english to the international press another thing in hebrew in english that talking about all the scary things that might be on the ship with holocaust survivor heavy epstein in hebrew there briefing the cabinet that we have absolutely no evidence whatsoever of any threat coming from this flotilla so mr katz's husband may may

work in far right wing circles in israel but it's it's why israel is in such a bad bind in terms that are an oblique deploring of the. lation you can please it's an explanation as you just don't. i mean you just like to ask you a question years and i ask you a question do you think that dating fire israeli cities will be as good you think he's really bill and terry will tell i'm sorry gentlemen it's not risky to say shell's we keep this orderly here if i could ask you if the israeli government doesn't think that this hotel is a threat do you think it will use military force to stop it in the next few days. i think that israel israel plans to enforce the sea blockade over the gaza strip because if it allows the ships to sail freely into gaza first of all yes there is a chance that they are carrying weapons that they are carrying terrorist we saw that in last year's flotilla there were armed mercenaries aboard the much turkish baths and your ship mavi marmara which lynch to try saline was really sold as

israel holding a laotian to sell relieved was it because of that concerns and and the same to this experience he has his hands. of these rules were to allow these ships to sail into gaza then it would create a precedent that would then allow a ship like victoria which was several months ago tried to sail to gaza with the rainy and anti she already has a really tough you know ray you may have brought up an interesting word precedent here and i think that's what everybody's looking at a precedent chris is this what the israelis are most afraid of ok is that the blockade will be broken if it's broke a broken once in a big p.r. way they'll be no way for it to enforce it in the future. well peter if you want to unpack israeli paranoia and listeria you should really be speaking to yakov katz mr katz and not to me but certainly i think that what he was talking about about the bind in terms of international p.r. that israel is in is a very interesting point because on the international stage israel is looking

increasingly to legitimize and again one can quote into lieberman and other israeli officials one doesn't have to make an argument at all here and i think that this blockade and this flotilla that is in response to it i think is a real danger for israel's international reputation and so far israel is really floundering it show it show no real response that i think convinces the world audience out there that it really is acting in a manner which is legitimate and is the kind of behavior that one expects from the state and i think the fact that if until it is in response to an illegal collective punishment considerably weakens on already weakened case right now i am going to give you the last word in the program go ahead in chicago it's where we go from here now ali you didn't say as much as everyone else go ahead. peter i think it's well if we call him and he is really unfolds by chris and we look at the fact that ships have been carrying weapons to the gaza strip for how many go ahead germany has made that is highly solid state has for us and it was just face journalism at

the well israel you know israel needs to and its occupation of blockade of the gaza strip it needs to and it needs to end its occupation of colonize ation and settlement of the west bank it needs to end the system and use carolyn ational and to tell us the sentences are always a visit all right gentlemen this is very much what i see from this. time many thanks to my guess in a jerusalem and in chicago and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk rule. keep.

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