at seven thirty pm on scout time these other top stories on r.g.p. the greek government agrees on a stringent set of all sturdy measures as riot police battled protestors just meters away from parliament and the cuts are prerequisite for more valid cash from the e.u. to fight off a looming to fall. on the greek economic turmoil is the first challenge facing the new international monetary fund chief christine lagarde the first woman to head the

organization she also has the tough task of fighting off the perception that the i.m.f. this dry is in favor of western countries. syria is on restaurants to spread across the middle east israel is increasing security of its borders with them on after reports in the law is moving weapons there in case it's allied president is overthrown. so israel is also reading itself for more trouble as a new humanitarian for tiller sales for gaza will see a repeat will we see a repeat i should say of last year's deadly raid that's the question in focus and today's edition of cross talk next on our city. can. start. to. flow in welcome to crosstalk i'm peter lavelle freedom flotilla two point zero over

a thousand protocol is to me an activist from twenty two countries for such a joint freedom flotilla two in a bid to break israel's five year blockade on gaza where one point five million palestinians live where we manged to be seen is whether they'll be a violent repeat of last year's flotilla to gaza. to cross not the second freedom flotilla i'm joined by the cots in jerusalem he's a military correspondent and defense analyst for the jerusalem post also in jerusalem we have chris gunness he is a spokesperson for the united nations relief and works agency a neutral humanitarian organization with over ten thousand workers on the ground in gaza who's neutral work is based on the united nations charter and universal declaration and in chicago we cross to ali abunimah he is co-founder of the electronic intifada and author of one country a bold proposal to end the israeli palestinian impasse all right gentlemen this is

cross talk and i mean cross talk rules in effect but first let's have a look at what is called the second attempt to break the gaza blockade. a dangerous provocation or a bold move in defiance of a blockade freedom flotilla two sets of sails for troubled waters again only a year after its predecessors tragic attempt to deliver humanitarian aid to the gaza strip ignoring grave warnings from the israeli government the convoys carrying some one thousand activists from twenty countries determined to break an israeli blockade of the palestinian territory but after the recent political breakthrough in cairo and the easing of passage through the rough across saying on the egyptian border to allow passage of people and goods the flotilla campaign will look more like an attempt on television and corner it security forces into aggression despite last year's debacle that saw nine activists killed and forty more wounded israeli government has vowed to continue intercepting any vessels that proceed to gaza shores interested curator concerns we've already introduced to this she's gone from

school more than four miles from iraq and turning to hundreds of tons of weapons and will simply come on. the floor with them some more and more from the city but this time it seems to be more about a tug of war between israel and pro palestinian forces as well as israel's resolve to avoid a precedent that would undermine its grip on gaza that you see here this is automatic and the u.s. has made it clear that it stands by its traditional ally and has even warned american citizens to stay clear of the second filter were to gaza we do not believe therefore to you it is a necessary or useful for to try to seize the people of gaza and with this it's not going to be from the try to provoke actions back and is really waters and creating a situation in which these are really the right to do found themselves. in

the us the organizers of the flotilla remain determined even in the face of possible violence it would seem that breaking the blockade of gaza is the key to alleviating what the united nations says has led to a humanitarian crisis in gaza. bain's . suffering. alone the second freedom flotilla to gaza faces many of the same political and security issues of the first rotella the palestinians and their international supporters demands an end to what they deemed as in the legal blockade of gaza but israel spends more isolated in street on the gazans than ever who would choose to avoid the kind of catastrophic p.r. it received over its confrontation with the first flotilla or will it remain as uncompromising about its security as it's always been. charney for across our team . ok chris if i can go to you in jerusalem in preparing for this

program and you get two different points of view what is this is this flotilla a political provocation or is it a humanitarian mission because depending on what you want to read in western media it's one of the other and mostly it is a provocation how do you react about being on the ground and knowing gaza so well. well the position of the united nations relief and works agency for which i speak is very clear on this if there were no humanitarian crisis if there weren't a crisis in almost every aspects of life in gaza there'd be no need for the fertility if there were a blockade there'd be no need for the fertility let's look at the basic humanitarian facts on the ground ninety five percent of all water in gaza is undrinkable forty percent of all disease is water that is caused by poor water forty five point two percent of the labor force is an employees eighty percent a dependency a tripling of the abject course since the blockade there is clearly

a crisis in every aspect of life in gaza we're trying to build schools one hundred new schools big problems there there's a crisis of education there's a crisis of public health millions of gallons of untreated sewage floating into the sea every day because there's a crisis of public health let's get rid of this blockade and there be no need for a fertility ok i know you are also in jerusalem so there is a need for this photo just for more awareness reasons than any other purpose according to what christians said. well i think that in general the people of gaza definitely to some extent are suffering but i think there are different ways to insert humanitarian aid to the gaza strip we saw recently the decision by the egyptian government to open up the rougher crossing in gaza shares a lengthly border with egypt which they would be able to use if anyone were to ask to be able to transfer goods from egypt into gaza israel maintains land crossings

that are used almost on a daily basis for close to two hundred trucks if not more to transfer medicine supplies and humanitarian goods to the gaza strip and as chris mentioned before schools are being built in gaza israel's approved dozens of schools for some reason is dragging its feet and not working and taking action on some of those permits that it's been approved to move forward with inserting the building of but since last year's flotilla israel is definitely lacks the restrictions on the gaza strip i don't think that this is the way to do it we've seen most recently in february was the victoria ship interest caring a rainy in arms sophisticated missiles and radars to hamas in the gaza strip israel has said it cannot allow for ships to sail freely to gaza because they will carry weapons for hamas which will then use them to attack israeli cities and therefore if you really care for the palestinians use either egypt or israeli courts and land crossings to bring in humanitarian goods why do it through the sea when israel says

it won't allow it to happen because of its security unless you really are seeking a provocation ok only if i go to you in chicago why would this photo under any circumstances at all bring arms as part of a humanitarian and never i mean this is counterintuitive i don't understand why the israelis are so upset about this unless they just don't want to see a precedent to be set where a photo look can break the blockade that's what it's all about not security breaking the blockade is that right or wrong. well nobody believes that there are going to be arms on these ships not even the israeli government and as our it's reported yesterday and i quote verbatim security officials and and foreign ministry representatives informed the cabinet on sunday that israel has no information indicating that terrorists or anyone affiliated with a terror group is planning to take part in the flotilla and according to the same israeli government sources. the flip to the participants will be european peace

activists and american peace activists and others presumably not interested in violence and will quote present a more difficult public diplomacy challenge so not even the israelis believe that this flotilla is a threat and in fact it's a mistake to reduce this to an issue of humanitarian aid because for example the u.s. boat to gaza is not carrying humanitarian aid it's carrying only letters written by americans directed to people in gaza letters of solidarity and support the u.s. boat to gaza is eighty seven year old holocausts of five a heady epstein pulitzer prize winning american novelist alice walker and a number of other americans all of whose names and faces are available on the u.s. boat to gaza website so we have the absurd situation now where israeli commandos of training to prevent an eighty seven year old holocaust survivor from

reaching the gaza strip and the real problem here is that israel is trying to present the fla tilla as a military threat to the military situation when absolutely nobody not even the israeli government believes that and the point about the blockade and why people are seeking to break it is because israeli officials themselves for example the israeli foreign minister avigdor lieberman in june. last year have stated clearly that the purpose of the blockade is collective punishment and political ok sure that's a very very important point here if i go to you how do you react to that because it is we hear this a lot from members of the international community this is collective punishment against the people of gaza how do you respond to that. i don't know firstly i find it to be a little absurd you know israel pulled out of the gaza strip in two thousand and five with an hand extended for peace pulled out of the international borders

instead of having the houses that are left behind and the settlements that are left behind to be used to build agriculture and to build industry hamas which vialli took over gaza in two thousand and seven decided to continuously attack israel with the reigning arms that it obtains through ships that try to sail to gaza or to egypt and smuggle twenty thousand into the gaza strip pulled from the tunnels that time from the tunnels under under under under of california which was a commission so i think that excuse me i think that once again i think i think in the end the israel has fired and is now israel as a sovereign states has the rights israel is a sovereign state has as well as a partner professor at a distance and to protect is gaza part of israel want to go to the british before the break i say isn't quite i want to go to chris before the break that we just heard an interesting comment chris christie i devoted christian please before we go to the freeway please please was before the break then is how much christmas how much is hot how much autonomy does the gazans have ok if israel isn't in control

very little because although you are close enough that although mr cutts is talking precisely there's been no exports of gossip in the month of may there is a there's a blockade there is an occupation israel controls the land the sea in the airspace in international that means there is an occupation going on and if i could just respond to one thing that mr katz said earlier and so dr for your crew of those along with ashley young life christmas day council utilizing it circular here at least you speak for those of us who are used to yeah because katz's no no i don't see who started using order without you we just heard from him is a classic of the genre the idea is dragging its feet all right gentlemen i mean right now we'll continue discussion discussion right where we left off after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the phone. still a state with artist. the british comedian says the end. of the

book. says twenty years ago just country subsistence or is it was. the. subcontinent to come up with its began in germany. where did it take them. on. the eve. of the atlantic is. this lead to. this is. the be pigs

in the be. i shall be soon which brightened if you move on from plans to action moves. from the stars on t.v. dot com. to kick. start. the first. welcome back to cross talk i'm here all about her mind you we're talking about

freedom flotilla two point zero. kick. start. ok chris you're starting with are they the break started or do you explain the situation of. if i could say the relationship between israel and gaza i mean how much economy does the gaza strip have and isn't it just israel want to determine the economic development of it i mean the there seems to be this intention of control everything that is done in gaza and make sure that it's no threat to israel and they can have no independent policy of its own people out of domestically or or with other palestinians or abroad. thank you peter give me this chart i think you've said it all israel is. because israel controls the land sea and air space of gaza effective control means it's not patient but if i could address something which mr katz said earlier about why not bring things in through russia i'm afraid this is yet another example of

his evidence free of journalism completely lacking any acquaintance with the situation on the ground i've actually been through the rough crossing it's one small road going north it's one small road going south if you like need to feed seven hundred fifty thousand people each day it is hopelessly inadequate that is why we say to israel allow us to do our humanitarians was just the poorest of the few weeks ago severe european finally finished trail the whole thing is for hunger is our tons of humanitarian goods to gaza through rafa just a few weeks ago if you're not sales is a way to run trains where you do things for my general knowledge job in here you are seeking a job here in the godly in chicago to the gentlemen i'm going to go to chicago right now i'm going to chicago is how is the blockade of gaza counterproductive for israel's own interests how would you address that because it doesn't seem to get

israel any score any points whatsoever ok what does it get from blockading gaza. well let's step back for a minute and if you listen to what pat says he's representing very well the israeli government viewpoint it's very clear what the agenda is the only agenda is to disconnect gaza which is part and parcel of historic palestine and its people to disconnect it completely to hermitic the seal it and to dump it on to egypt that's why he's saying why don't you bring the goods through egypt but what is gaza really it is a giant prison for one point six million people eighty percent of them refugees from towns and villages destroyed towns and villages that the in what is now israel and israel wants nothing to do with them for one reason only and that's because they're not jews that's the fundamentally racist nature of this blockade because if

the people of gaza who are native and indigenous to know what mr katz would call israel israel would open the prison gates of gaza and welcome them home so this is why the blockade is fundamentally political fundamentally of racist and fundamentally b.s. you're going to have a chance to response is that israel wants to throw them all into egypt and then knock palestinians over across parts of egypt the pop of palestine and i know this to can yes i mean unless you respond right now yes of course i had in jerusalem go ahead go ahead replied the alley i apologize but i think ali is completely falsifying the fact that israel has continuously offered the palestinians in negotiations a palestinian state built on an established land in the gaza strip and the west bank with continuity in a way of connecting those two parties with the employer is this is really. pretty new in that these guys did there are twenty percent of the arrow that the latest

israeli citizens press was a total or a weasel to reason is because it's a she with yahoo customer both say they do. rolls down. this gentleman we're all talking over there else crazy go ahead. go ahead i want to go you are saying something i have an example like i have because you disagree. with. gentlemen israel has the right to do this it's ok with you can begin to build a state this idea that gaza can become part of a state and that israel is opening its arms wide to that possibility simply is not borne out in reality to begin with the policy of isolating blockading both politically and economically of course does not sit with what mr katz is saying you cannot possibly think that you could have a viable state in the situation in gaza is in there is a policy of collective punishment and that has been condemned as

a violation of international that's why israel is finding itself to legitimize because it's on the wrong side of international law if israel wanted to legitimize itself and as a member state of the u.n. i sincerely hope that israel does and i would support the process then it has to get on the right side of international law that means lifting this blockade which is a violation of international law it is a collective punishment and send the idea that collective punishment can somehow lead to statehood is an absurdity mr katz knows that gentlemen gentlemen we have to be fair here because go ahead you know go ahead because it's two against one here go ahead i want to give you the paratime go ahead. i'm in the middle little communities right now say that grant that. that. if you look at the numbers and the fact that the term blockade is is just it's not accurate because if you look over the past year and past half a year at least over ten thousand to fifteen thousand palestinians have been allowed into israel for medical treatment trucks over two hundred crossing to gaza

on a daily basis in israel sea blockade has been confirmed agree or firmed it approved by pi international organizations by the united nations and by different allies of israel. as it was fairly soon since the security for our a guy here for a guy who can embarrass the us and i mean you bring up a very interesting one ali and i go to you is to blockade legal or illegal under international law let's clear this out go ahead ali i really don't think in chicago you find please go ahead and personally helping me in chicago go ahead i would think that the united nations would have spokespeople. go ahead. well if mr katz will allow me the international committee of the red cross last june. the sea. to the sea the siege and the blockade is illegal and numerous un and other bodies have declared that it's illegal and of course israeli officials themselves have stated that the purpose is collected collective punishment i can read you

baits in quotes from the israeli foreign minister of egypt go lieberman among others saying the puppets for example is to apply political pressure to force palestinians to release the single israeli prisoner of war held in the gaza strip which understandable that israel might want him freed but it's absolutely illegal under international law to apply collective punishment to a civilian population in order to free prisoners of war but that's what israeli officials themselves explain that they're doing and these are crimes by the way punishable under international law under the sudden fourth geneva conventions so we don't need to even wait for what mr gun is so other u.n. officials have to say i have to say we can just listen to israeli officials like avigdor lieberman explaining the punitive and illegal intent of this blockade and as i mentioned and i stress this israeli officials themselves say one thing in

english to the international press another thing in hebrew in english talking about all the scary things that might be on the ship with holocaust survivor had the epstein in hebrew that briefing the cabinet but we have absolutely no evidence whatsoever of any threat coming from the split so mr katz's husband may may walk in far right wing circles in israel but it's why israel is in such a bad bind in terms that are oblique the clarus public. when you completely sense an explanation when you just don't. know you because i can ask you a question years and i ask you a question do you think that even fired at israeli cities will be as you think he is really bill and terry will tell them sorry journalism is good to see shells we keep this orderly here because i could ask you if these really government doesn't think that this hotel is a threat do you think it will use military force to stop it in the next few days. i

think that israel israel plans to enforce the sea blockade over the gaza strip because if it allows the ships to sail freely into gaza first of all yes there is a chance that they are carrying weapons that they are carrying terrorist we saw that in last year's flotilla there were armed mercenaries aboard the much turkish baths and your ship mavi marmara which lynch to try saline to israeli soldiers as israel holding a lot of the still relieved because it was the best concerns and and the same to get his hands on these journeys and israel's were to allow these ships to sail into gaza then it would create a precedent that would then allow a ship like victoria which is several months ago tried to sail to gaza with the rainy and anti she already. yes no fuel no rain you mean you brought up an interesting word precedent here and i think that's what everybody's looking at a precedent chris is this what the israelis are most afraid of ok is that the blockade will be broken if it's broke a broken once in a big p.r.

way they'll be no way for it to enforce it in the future. well peter if you want to unpack israeli paranoia and hysteria you should really be speaking to yaakov katz mr katz and not to me but certainly i think that what he was talking about about the grind in terms of international p.r. that israel is in is a very interesting point because on the international stage israel is looking increasingly a deal just amazed and again one can quote be told lieberman and other israeli officials one doesn't have to make an argument up it's all here and i think that this blockade and this flotilla that is in response to it i think is a real danger for israel's international reputation and so far israel is really floundering it showed it show no real response that i think convinces the world audience out there that it really is acting in a manner which is which it is the kind of behavior that one expects from the state and i think the fact that the facilities in response to an illegal collective

punishment considerably weakens already weakened the case all right i am going to give you the last word in the program go ahead in chicago it's where we go from here now ali you didn't say as much as everyone else go ahead. peter i think if we if we ignore all the ills of the israeli unfolds by chris and we look at the fact that ships have been carrying weapons to the gaza strip for only go ahead jump in and what he. states has for us and that was just basic journalism nicol well israel you know israel needs to end its occupation of blockade of the gaza strip it needs to and it needs to end its occupation of colonize ation and settlement of the west bank it needs to end systems and use them in a sharing to tell if the syrians are always a visit all right gentlemen this is very much what i see from this. time many thanks my guess a dangerous limb and in chicago and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t.c. you next time and remember cross talk rules. take

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