reveal. the soviet files. for the. we've got. the biggest issues getting voice face to face with the news makers. welcome back here's a recap of the top stories on our t.v. cautious between riot police and a bit of protesters continue in the streets of athens following the government's approval of harsh new a sturdy rolls the cuts are a prerequisite for more bailout cash from the e.u. to fight off a looming a default. and orphans in russia continue to struggle in adulthood and lack of government provided how signees some have to live in rundown homes with little help . syria's unrest reference to spread across the middle east israel is

concerned that hezbollah is moving up and so lebanon just in case president assad is overthrown. and israel is also ready to get self or more trouble as a new humanitarian flotilla sales for gaza will we see a repeat of last year's deadly raid well that's a question in focus in today's edition of cross talk that's up next. you can. start. to. flow in welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle freedom flotilla two point zero four thousand propellants to me an activist from twenty two countries are said to join freedom flotilla two in a bid to break israel's five year blockade on gaza where one point five million palestinians live what remains to be seen is whether they'll be a violent repeat of last year's ok what caused. it to.

cross talk a second freedom flotilla i'm joined by cots in jerusalem he's a military correspondent and defense analyst for the jerusalem post also in jerusalem we have chris gunness he is a spokesperson for the united nations relief and works agency a neutral humanitarian organization with over ten thousand workers on the ground in gaza who's neutral work is based on the united nations charter and universal declaration and in chicago we cross to ali abunimah he is co-founder of the electronic intifada and author of one country a bold proposal to end the israeli palestinian impasse sorry gentlemen this is cross talk and i mean cross talk rules in effect but first let's have a look at what is called the second attempt to break the gaza blockade. a dangerous provocation or a bold move in defiance of a blockade freedom flotilla two sets of sales for troubled waters again only

a year after its predecessors tragic attempt to deliver humanitarian aid to the gaza strip ignoring grave warnings from the israeli government the convoys carrying some one thousand activists from twenty countries determined to break an israeli blockade of the palestinian territory but after the recent political breakthrough in cairo and the easing of passage there were rougher crossing on the egyptian border to allow passage of people and goods the flotilla campaign may look more like an attempt on television and cornered security forces into aggression despite last year's debacle that's online activists killed and forty more wounded israeli government has vowed to continue intercepting any vessels that proceed to gaza shores interesting period concerns. interdicted this fall in full and foremost from the role containing hundreds of tons of weapons israel simply cannot . work on some more. but this time it seems to be

more about a tug of war between israel and pro palestinian forces as well as israel's resolve to avoid a presence that would undermine its grip on gaza a little to see where this is a little bit and the u.s. has made it clear that it stands by its traditional ally and has even more of american citizens to stay clear of the second quarter or to gaza we didn't want to which is a necessary are useful for to try to see the people of gaza and we'll see this it's not for there to be for two months try to pull connections back into israeli waters and create a new situation in which these are very. well the us the organizers of the flotilla remain determined even in the face of possible violence it would seem that breaking the blockade of gaza is the key to alleviating will the united nations says has led to a humanitarian crisis in gaza. bain's

. suffering. from the shalom the second freedom flotilla to gaza faces many of the same political and security issues of the first protel are the palestinians and their international supporters demands an end to rub a dream as in the legal blockade of gaza but israel sends more isolated and street movement gazans than ever would choose to avoid the kind of catastrophic p.r. it received over its confrontation with the first four tila or will it remain as i'm compromising about the security as it's always been. charney for across our team. ok chris if i can go to you in jerusalem in preparing for this program and you get two different points of view what is this is this a political provocation or is it a humanitarian mission because depending on what you want to read in western media

it's one of the other and mostly it is a provocation how do you react to that being on the ground and knowing gaza so well . well the position of the united nations relief and works agency which i speak is very clear on this if there were no humanitarian crisis if there weren't a crisis in almost every aspect of life in gaza there'd be no need for the fertility if there were a blockade there is no need for fertility let's look at the basic humanitarian facts on the ground ninety five percent of all water in gaza is undrinkable forty percent of all disease is water borne it's caused by poor water forty five point two percent of the labor force is unemployed eighty percent a dependency a tripling of the abject poor since the blockade there is clearly a crisis in every aspect of life in gaza we're trying to build schools one hundred new schools big problems there there's a crisis of education there's a crisis of public health millions of gallons of untreated sewage floating into the

sea every day because there's a crisis of public health let's get rid of this blockade and there be no need for a fertility ok i know you are so in jerusalem so there is a need for this photo just for more awareness reasons than any other purpose according to what christians said. well i think that in general the people of gaza definitely to some extent are suffering but i think that there are different ways to be able to insert humanitarian aid to the gaza strip we saw recently the decision by the egyptian government to open up the rougher crossing in gaza shares a lengthly border with egypt which they would be able to use if anyone were to ask to be able to transfer goods from egypt into gaza israel maintains land crossings that are used almost on a daily basis for close to two hundred trucks if not more to transfer medicine supplies and humanitarian goods to the gaza strip and as chris mentioned before schools are being built in gaza israel has approved dozens of schools for some

reason is dragging its feet and not working and taking action on some of those permits that it's been approved to move forward with inserting the building equipment but since last year's flotilla israel is definitely lax up the restrictions on the gaza strip i don't think that this is the way to do it we've seen most recently in february was the victoria ship interest carrying a rainy in arms sophisticated missiles and radars to hamas in the gaza strip israel has said it cannot allow for ships to sail freely to gaza because they will carry weapons for hamas which will then use them to attack israeli cities and therefore if you really care for the palestinians use either egypt or israeli ports and land crossings to bring in humanitarian goods why do it through the sea when israel says it won't allow it to happen because of its security unless you really are seeking a provocation ok only if i go to you in chicago why would this photo under any circumstances at all bring arms as part of a humanitarian and never i mean this is counterintuitive i don't understand why the

israelis are so upset about this unless they just don't want to see a precedent to be set where a flotilla can break the blockade that's what it's all about not security breaking the blockade is that right or wrong. well nobody believes that there are going to be arms on these ships not even the israeli government and as it's reported yesterday and i quote verbatim security officials and and foreign ministry representatives informed the cabinet on sunday that israel has no information indicating that terrorists or anyone affiliated with a terror group is planning to take part in the flip pillar and according to the same israeli government sources. the flew to the participants will be european peace activists and american peace activists and others presumably not interested in violence and will quote present a more difficult public diplomacy challenge so not even the israelis believe that

this flotilla is a threat and in fact it's a mistake to reduce this to an issue of humanitarian aid because for example the u.s. boat to gaza is not carrying humanitarian aid it's carrying only letters written by americans directed to people in gaza lapses of solidarity and support the u.s. boat to gaza is eighty seven year old holocaust survivor head the epstein pulitzer prize winning american novelist alice walker and a number of other americans all of whose names and faces are available on the u.s. boat to gaza website so we have the absurd situation now where israeli commandos of training to prevent an eighty seven year old holocaust survivor from reaching the gaza strip and the real problem here is that israel is trying to present the flu tilla as a military threat to the military situation when absolutely nobody not even the

israeli government believes that and the point about the blockade in why people are seeking to break it is because israeli officials themselves for example israeli foreign minister i think go lieberman in june. last year have stated clearly that the purpose of the blockade is collective punishment and political operation that's a very very important point security if i go to you kate how do you react to that because it is we hear this a lot from members of the international community this is collective punishment against the people of gaza how do you respond to that. i you know personally i find it to be a little absurd you know israel pulled out of the gaza strip in two thousand and five with a hand extended for peace pulled out of the international borders instead of having the houses that are left behind and the settlements that are left behind to be used to to build agriculture and to build industry hamas which miley took over gaza in two thousand and seven decided to continuously attack israel with the reigning arms

that it obtains through ships that try to sail to gaza or to egypt and smuggle twenty thousand into the gaza strip. from the tunnels under under under i'm sure i'll assure you israel is a commission so i think that it's just me and i think that once again i think although i think it was you israel has fired it is that israel is a sovereign state has the right to separate state has israel is a professor at a distance and to protect is gaza part of israel want to go to prison before the break i said isn't quite i want to go to chris before the break that we just heard an interesting comment chris chris i devoted christian please before we go to the break you why please please you guys before the break there is how much christmas how much is hot how much autonomy does the gazans have ok if israel isn't in control very little because although you're close enough mr katz is talking precisely there's been no exports of gaza for in the month of may there is a there's a blockade there is an occupation israel controls the land the sea in the airspace

in international that means there is no queue patient going on and if i could just respond to one thing that mr katz said earlier and so driving it for your good those along with such a young life till christmas day council utilize he had some people here the reasons you speak for those of us who are used to young cost cuts is i don't see how you start using order without you just heard from him is a classic of the genre the idea that under is dragging its feet all right gentlemen i mean right now we'll continue this gushed discussion right where we left off after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the flotilla stay with our. it's the british system. of. the folks. who gets twenty years ago in the largest country in the slums certificates

of the. smug in the boots come up to the janitor. where did it take. the bullies. are lucky. lucky. just so. it's. just some other. pick him up. the luck.

of. if. the shit would be soon which would rise in. about sums from funds to crash in the slums. as for the stars hot seat belts come. you can. still. welcome back to cross talk i'm here all about her mind you were talking about

freedom flotilla two point zero. can. start. ok chris you're starting before they had to break started to explain the situation of. if i could say the relationship between israel and gaza i mean how much economy does the gaza strip have and isn't it just israel want to determine the economic development of it i mean the there seems to be this intent to control everything that is done in gaza to make sure that it's no threat to israel and they can have no independent policy of its own divided a mess to clean or or with other palestinians or a broad. thank you peter give me this chance i think you've said it all israel is patient because israel controls the land sea and air space of effective control means let's not be patient but if i could address something which mr katz said earlier about why not bring things in through russia i'm afraid this is yet another

example of his evidence free mode of journalism completely lacking any acquaintance with the situation on the ground i've actually been through the rough across it's one small road going north it's one small road going south if you like or need to feed seven hundred fifty thousand people each day it is hopelessly inadequate that is why we say to israel allow us to do our humanitarian through the poorest of the few weeks ago severely europeans they finished trail the elderly and costing is ransford hungary's are tons of humanitarian goods to gaza through rafa just a few weeks ago europeans should not sail his way to run trains we do the same for . our gentlemen in holland when you are seeking to jump in here illegally in chicago to the gentlemen i am going to go to chicago right now i'm going to chicago is how is the blockade of gaza counterproductive for israel's own interests how would you address that because it doesn't seem to get israel and you score any

points whatsoever ok well if they get from blockading gaza. well let's step back for a minute and if you listen to what yacov katz says he's representing very well the israeli government viewpoint it's very clear what the agenda is the really agenda is to disconnect gaza which is part and parcel of historic palestine and its people to disconnect it completely to him it the seal it and to dump it on to egypt that's why he's saying why don't you bring the goods through egypt but what is gaza really it is a giant prison for one point six million people eighty percent of them refugees from towns and villages destroyed towns and villages the in what is now israel and israel wants nothing to do with them for one reason only and that's because they're not jews that's the fundamentally racist nature of this blockade because if

the people of gaza who are native and indigenous to palestine know what mr katz would call israel israel would open the prison gates of gaza and welcome them home so this is why the blockade is fundamentally political fundamentally of racist and fundamentally as you have a chance to respond system israel wants to throw them all into egypt and then knock palestinians over parts of egypt on the top of palestine and i know mr kenyon something like your response right now yes go ahead in jerusalem go ahead go ahead replied the alley i apologize but i think ali is completely falsifying the fact that israel has continuously offered the palestinians in negotiations a palestinian state built on an established land in the gaza strip and the west bank with continuity in a way of connecting those two points as you play is this is really. pretty new in that these guys if there are twenty percent of the arabs that made in this disraeli

said his interests was a total israel to reasoning because it's a she with all the say that. her old housing evidence releases in the hours are because they are in this gentleman we're all talking on their roles crazy go ahead . chris go ahead i want chris to go you are saying something i am exactly where i. have going to go is your age chris christie gentlemen israel has the right to do this it's ok we'll talk about it if you can begin to build a state this idea that gaza can become part of a state and that israel is opening its arms wide to that possibility simply is not borne out in reality to begin with the policy of isolating blockading the both politically and economically of course does not sit with what mr katz is saying you cannot possibly think that you could have a viable state in the situation that karzai is in there is a policy of collective punishment and that has been condemned as

a violation of international that's why israel is finding itself to legitimize because it's on the wrong side of international law if israel wanted to legitimize itself and as a member states the u.n. i sincerely hope that israel does and i would support the process then it has to get on the right side of international law that means lifting this blockade which is a violation of international law it's a collective punishment and it will send the idea that collective punishment can somehow lead to statehood is an absurdity mr katz gentlemen gentlemen we have to be fair here you go ahead you know go ahead because it's two against one here go ahead i want to give you the paratime go ahead. i'm in the middle neutral to be right but i'll say that. that that that. if you look at the numbers and the fact that the term blockade is just it's not accurate because if you look over the past year and past half a year at least over ten thousand to fifteen thousand palestinians have been allowed into israel for medical treatment trucks over two hundred crossing to gaza

on a daily basis and israel sea blockade has been confirmed reaffirmed approved by by international organizations by the united nations and by different allies of israel . as of the security zones and security services right now a guy here for a guy who you can look at this and you'll see i mean you bring up a very interesting what ali and i do to you is the blockade legal or illegal under international law let's clear this out go ahead holly go i have really been in chicago you find please go ahead you can personally helping me in chicago go ahead i would think that the united nations would have spokespeople who anjali go ahead. well if mr katz will allow me the international committee of the red cross last june. sea declare to the sea the siege in the blockade is illegal numerous un and of the parties have declared that it's illegal and of course israeli officials themselves have stated that the purpose is collected collective

punishment i can read you a tim quotes from the israeli foreign minister of egypt though lieberman among others saying the puppets for example is to apply political pressure to force palestinians to release the single israeli prisoner of war held in the gaza strip which understandable that israel might want him freed but it's absolutely illegal under international law to apply collective punishment to a civilian population in order to free prisoners of war but that's what israeli officials themselves explain that they're doing and these are crimes by the way punishable under international law under the sudden fourth geneva conventions so we don't need to even wait for a walk missed the gun is so out of the un officials have to say i have to say we can just listen to israeli officials like avigdor lieberman explaining the punitive and illegal intent of this blockade and as i mentioned and i stress this israeli

officials themselves say one thing in english to the international press another thing in hebrew in english that talking about all the scary things that might be on the ship with holocaust survivor had the epstein in hebrew there briefing the cabinet that we have absolutely no evidence whatsoever of any threat coming from this flotilla so mr katz's husband may may work in far right wing circles in israel but it's it's why israel is in such a bad pint in terms of our lovely deploring. lation you can please it's next relations you just don't. know you just like i got asked you a question years and i ask you a question do you think that even fire israeli cities will be as good you think he's really bill and terry will tell i'm sorry gentlemen this is my escape to seashells we keep this orderly here because i can ask you if these really government doesn't think that this hotel is a threat do you think it will use military force to stop it in the next few days. i

think that israel israel plans to enforce the sea blockade over the gaza strip because if it allows the ships to sail freely into gaza first of all yes there is a chance that they are carrying weapons that they are carrying terrorist we saw that in last year's flotilla there were armed mercenaries aboard the ghats and your ship mavi marmara which lynch who tries to lynch israeli soldiers is as israel holding a lousy mission to sell really just a cousin that concerns them and the same to spirits good as his hand journalism israel's were to allow the ships to sail into gaza then it would create a precedent that would then allow a ship like victoria which is several months ago tried to sail to gaza with the rainy and anti she already. yes no fuel no rain you may have brought up an interesting word precedent here and i think that's what everybody's looking at a precedent chris is this what the israelis are most afraid of ok is that the blockade will be broken if it's broke a broken once in a big p.r.

way they'll be no way for it to enforce it in the future. well peter if you want to unpack israeli paranoia and listeria you should really be speaking to your cats mr kurtz and not to me but certainly i think that what he was talking about about the bind in terms of international p.r. that israel is in is a very interesting point because on the international stage israel is looking increasingly dealer just amazed and again one can quote told even and other israeli officials one doesn't have to make an argument at all here and i think that this blockade and this flotilla that is in response to it i think is a real danger for israel's international reputation and so far israel is really floundering it show it show no real response i think convinces the world audience out there that it really is acting in a manner which is legitimate and is the kind of behavior that one expects from the state and i think the fact that if until it is in response to an illegal collective

punishment considerably weakens already weakened case all right are we going to give you the last word in the program go ahead in chicago it's where we go from here no you didn't say as much as everyone else go ahead. peter i think it proves we can all feel that he is really unfolds by christmas and we look at the fact that ships have been carrying weapons to the gaza strip for only had germany. and state has for us and it was just basic journalism it israel and you know israel needs to end its occupation of blockade of the gaza strip it needs to and it needs to end its occupation and colonize ation and settlement to the west bank it needs to end the system and you scare the nation really into tallis the sentences are always a visit all right gentlemen this is very much what i expected from this group of time many thanks my guest today in jerusalem and in chicago and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember cross talk rules. to

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