i feel people will start to appreciate and.

welcome back here's a recap of the top stories on our clashes between the riot police and protesters continue in the streets about the government's approval of harsh new a loss the costs are a prerequisite for more bailout cash for. a looming and default. serious threatens to spread across the middle east he's rail is concerned that hezbollah is moving. just in case of president assad is overthrow. and more than a thousand people have been injured in clashes with police in the egyptian capital cairo demonstrators are demanding the prosecution of security forces accused of brutality during the mass uprising it will lead to the ousting of president mubarak in fact. well israel is also reading itself for more trouble as

a new humanitarian flotilla sails from gaza will we see a repeat of last year's deadly raid that question is in focus in today's edition of crosstalk and that's coming up next. a new. low in welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle freedom flotilla two point zero over a thousand pro palestinian activists from twenty two countries are said to join the freedom flotilla two in a bid to break israel's five year blockade on gaza where one point five million palestinians live what remains to be seen is whether they'll be a violent repeat of last year's flotilla to gaza.

to cross off the second freedom flotilla i'm joined by in jerusalem he's a military correspondent and defense analyst for the jerusalem post also in jerusalem we have chris gunness he is a spokesperson for the united nations relief and works agency a neutral humanitarian organization with over ten thousand workers on the ground in gaza who's neutral work is based on the united nations charter and universal declaration and in chicago we cross to ali abunimah he is co-founder of the electronic intifada and author of one country a bold proposal to end the israeli palestinian impasse all right gentlemen this is cross talk and it means cross talk rules in effect but first let's have a look at what is called the second attempt to break the gaza blockade. a dangerous provocation or a bold move in defiance of a blockade freedom flotilla two sets a sails for troubled waters again only a year after its predecessors tragic attempt to deliver humanitarian aid to the gaza strip ignoring grave warnings from the israeli government the convoys carrying

some one thousand activists from twenty countries determined to break an israeli blockade of the palestinian territory but after the recent political breakthrough in cairo and the easing of passage there the rougher crossing on the egyptian border to allow passage of people and goods the flotilla campaign will look more like an attempt to talk on television and corner its security forces into aggression despite last year's debacle that's online activists killed and forty more wounded there israeli government has vowed to continue intercepting any vessels that proceed to gaza shores due to security concerns we've already introduced. this. time for. from iraq confirming hundreds of tons of weapons israel simply cannot prove the free flow of weapons and more to hamas from the sea but this time it seems to be more about a tug of war between israel and pro palestinian forces as well as israel's resolve to avoid

a precedent that would undermine its grip on gaza medalists you know this is over there and the u.s. has made it clear that it stands by its traditional ally and has even more of american citizens to stay clear of the second photo were to gaza we do not believe . is a necessary or useful for to try to see the people of gaza and with see that it's not for there to be from the try to provoke actions by entering into israeli waters and creating a situation in which these are really the right to defend themselves. in the us the organizers of the flotilla remain determined even in the face of possible violence it would seem that breaking the blockade of gaza is the key to alleviating what the united nations says has led to a humanitarian crisis in gaza. bain's and i are suffering. the second freedom

flotilla to gaza faces many of the same political and security issues of the first flotilla the palestinians and their international supporters demanded an end to what they deem as in the legal blockade of gaza but israel stands more isolated and treatment of gazans than ever would choose to avoid the kind of catastrophic p.r. it received over its confrontation with the first flotilla or will it remain as uncompromising about its security as it's always been. for crossed off. ok chris if i can go to you in jerusalem in preparing for this program you get two different points of view what is this is this flotilla a political provocation or is it a humanitarian mission because depending on what you want to read in western media it's one of the other and mostly it is a provocation how do you react to that being on the ground and knowing gaza so well . well the position of the united nations relief and works agency for which i speak

is very clear on this if there were no humanitarian crisis if there weren't a crisis in almost every aspects of life in gaza there's been no need for the if there were blockade there'd be no need for the let's look at the basic humanitarian facts on the ground ninety five percent of all water in gaza is undrinkable forty percent of all disease is water poured it's caused by poor water forty five point two percent of the labor force is unemployed eighty percent a dependency a tripling of the abject pool since the blockade there is clearly a crisis in every aspect of life in gaza we're trying to build schools one hundred new schools big problems there's a crisis of education there's a crisis of public health millions of gallons of untreated sewage floating into the sea every day because there's a crisis of public health let's get rid of this blockade and there be no need for ok i'm going to you are also in jerusalem so there is

a need for this too just for more awareness reasons than any other purpose according to what christians said. well i think that in general the people of gaza definitely to some extent are suffering but i think that there are different ways to insert humanitarian aid to the gaza strip we saw recently the decision by the egyptian government to open up the rougher crossing in gaza shares a lengthly border with egypt which they would be able to use if anyone were to ask to be able to transfer goods from egypt into gaza israel maintains land crossings that are used almost on a daily basis for close to two hundred trucks if not more to transfer medicine supplies and humanitarian goods to the gaza strip and as chris mentioned before schools are being built in gaza israel has approved dozens of schools for some reason is dragging its feet and not working and taking action on some of those permits that it's been approved to move forward with. inserting the building

equipment but since last year. definitely lax up the restrictions on the gaza strip i don't think that this is the way to do it we've seen most recently in february was the victoria ship interest carrying a rainy in arms sophisticated missiles and radars to hamas in the gaza strip israel has said it cannot allow for ships to sail freely to gaza because they will carry weapons for hamas which will then use them to attack israeli cities and therefore if you really care for the palestinians use either egypt or israeli ports and land crossings to bring in humanitarian goods why do it through the sea when israel says it won't allow it to happen because of its security unless you really are seeking a provocation ok only if i go to you in chicago why would this photo under any circumstances at all bring arms as part of a humanitarian and i mean this is this would be counterintuitive i don't understand why the israelis are so upset about this unless they just don't want to see a precedent to be set where a photo can break the blockade that's what it's all about not security breaking the

blockade is that right or wrong. well nobody believes that there are going to be arms on these ships not even the israeli government and it's reported yesterday and i quote verbatim security officials and and foreign ministry representatives informed the cabinet on sunday that israel has no information indicating that terrorists or anyone affiliated with a terror group is planning to take part in the fla tilla and according to the same israeli government sources. the flip to the participants will be european peace activists and american peace activists and others presumably not interested in violence and will quote present a more difficult public diplomacy challenge so not even the israelis believe that this flotilla is a threat and in fact it's a mistake to reduce this to an issue of humanitarian aid because for example the u.s. boat to gaza is not carrying humanitarian aid it's carrying only letters written by

americans directed to people in gaza letters of solidarity and aboard the u.s. boat to gaza is eighty seven year old holocaust survivor had the epstein pulitzer prize winning american novelist alice walker and a number of other americans all of whose names and faces are available on the u.s. boat to gaza website so we have the absurd situation now where israeli commandos are training to prevent an eighty seven year old holocaust survivor from reaching the gaza strip and the real problem here is that israel is trying to present the flip tilla as a military threat to the military situation when absolutely nobody not even the israeli government believes that and the point about the blockade in white people is seeking to break it is because israeli officials themselves for example israeli

foreign minister avigdor lieberman in june. last year have stated clearly that the puppets of the blockade as collective punishment and political question as a very very important point if i go to you how do you react to that because it is we hear this a lot from members of the international community this is collective punishment against the people of gaza how do you respond to that. i you know personally i find it to be a little absurd you know israel pulled out of the gaza strip in two thousand and five with a hand extended for peace pulled out of the international borders instead of having the houses that are left behind and the settlements that are left behind to be used to to build agriculture and to build industry hamas which vialli took over gaza in two thousand and seven decided to continuously attack israel with the reigning arms that it obtains through ships that try to sail to gaza or to egypt and smuggled into the gaza strip. from the time it was under under under under under this order

which is a commission so i think that excuse me i think that once again i think all that is really is that israel is a sovereign state has the right israel is a sovereign state has as well as opposed to protect your citizens and to protect its gaza part and they were ok i want to go to chris before the break i want to go there isn't i want to go to chris before the break that we just heard an interesting comment chris christie i did go to chris please before we go to the prayer you why police legal rights before the break then in how much christmas how much is taught how much autonomy does the gazans have ok if israel isn't in control very little because although you are close enough mr katz is talking precisely there's been no exports you can go in the month of may there is a there's a blockade there is an occupation israel controls the land the sea in the airspace in international that means that there is an occupation going on and if i could just respond to one thing that mr katz said earlier that people like you and so

driving it for your good those along with ashley young life christmas day council. they're here to listen to you speak for those of us who are used to yeah because katz's credo no i don't see these dogs don't be using order without we've just heard from him is a classic of the genre the idea that under is dragging its feet all right gentlemen i mean right now we'll continue discussions discussion right where we left off after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the flotilla stay with r.t. . and you can see just so you can. sleep. good news

. on. the phone and. more news today violence is once again fled the fighting these are the images the world has been seeing from the streets of canada . china operations are all.

twenty years ago the largest country. seem to. have been. began a journey. where did it take to. keep . the. welcome back across town to mind you were talking about freedom flotilla two point zero. ok. ok chris you are starting to farther the break started to do explain with the situation of. if i could say the relationship between israel and gaza i mean how

much autonomy does the gaza strip have and isn't it just israel want to determine the economic development of it i mean. there seems to be this intent to control everything that is done in gaza to make sure that it's no threat to israel and they can have no independent policy of its own do either domestically or with other palestinians or abroad. thank you peace of give me this chance i think you've said it all israel is. because israel controls the land sea and air space of effective control means let's not be patient but if i could address something which mr katz said earlier about why not bring things in through russia i'm afraid this is yet another example of his evidence free mode of journalism completely lacking any acquaintance with the situation on the ground i've actually been through the rough across it's one small road going north it's one small road going south if you like or need to feed seven hundred fifty thousand people each day it is hopelessly adequate that is why we say to israel allow us to do our humanitarian work through

the poorest of the few weeks severely european finally finish. costing hundreds of tons of humanitarian goods to gaza through iraq just a few weeks ago europeans should not sail away to run trains we do the same for my general knowledge when you are seeking to jump in here in the godly in chicago to gentlemen i am going to go to chicago right now i'm going to chicago how is the blockade of gaza counterproductive to israel's own interests how would you address that because it doesn't seem to get israel any score any points whatsoever ok what does it get from blockading gaza. well let's step back for a minute and if you listen to what yaakov katz says he's representing very well the israeli government viewpoint it's very clear what the agenda is the only agenda is

to disconnect gaza which is part and parcel of historic palestine and its people to disconnect it completely to him ethically seal it and to dump it on to egypt that's why he's saying why don't you bring the goods through egypt but what is gaza really it is a giant prison for one point six million people eighty percent of them refugees from towns and villages destroyed towns and villages the in what is now israel and israel wants nothing to do with them for one reason only and that's because they're not jews that's the fundamentally racist nature of this blockade because if the people of gaza who are native and indigenous to palestine know what mr katz would call israel israel would open the prison gates of gaza and welcome them home so this is why the blockade is fundamentally political fundamentally of racist and fundamentally if you're going to have

a chance to respond system israel wants to throw them all into egypt and they're not palestinians only part of egypt on their part of palestine and i know this is a can yes i'm going to let you respond right now you can't go ahead in jerusalem go ahead go ahead replied the alley i apologize but i think ali is completely falsifying the fact that israel has continuously offered the palestinians in negotiations a palestinian state built on an established land in the gaza strip and the west bank with continuity in a way of connecting those two parts as you but is this is really. new in the deep eyes and there are twenty hammers into the air down a dentist israeli citizens was a total loser who recently got a. dollar to say that. roles developing at the races in the us and because they are all right gentlemen we're all talking over each other else kwesi can go ahead. go ahead i want chris to go you were saying something i had example i have not had have knowing how this situation. has chris here he is that gentlemen israel has the

right to do this it's like ok let's talk about it if you can begin to build a state. this idea that gaza can become part of a state and that israel is opening its arms wide to that possibility simply is not borne out in reality to begin with the policy of isolating blockading both politically and economically of course does not sit with what mr katz is saying you cannot possibly think that you could have a viable state in the situation that gaza is in there is a policy of collective punishment and that has been condemned as a violation of international that's why israel is finding itself dealer to surmise because it's on the wrong side of international law if israel wants it to legitimize itself and as a member state of the u.n. i sincerely hope that israel does and i would support the process then it has to get on the right side of international law that means lifting this blockade which

is a violation of international law it's a collective punishment and the idea that collective punishment can somehow lead to statehood is an absurdity to cats gentlemen gentlemen we have to be fair here because go ahead you know go ahead because it's two against one here go ahead i want to give you the paratime go ahead. i'm in the middle. but i'll say that. that the. look at the numbers and the fact that the term blockade is just it's not accurate because if we look over the past year in the past half a year at least over ten thousand to fifteen thousand palestinians have been allowed into israel for medical treatment trucks over two hundred crossing to gaza and a daily basis in israel sea blockade has been confirmed degree or firmed it approved by by international organizations by the united nations and by different allies of israel. as it was fairly soon since the security purposes right now a guy here for a guy. i mean you bring up a very interesting what are we and i together you is the blockade legal or illegal

under international law let's clear this out go ahead how are you going to really break in chicago are you trying to please go ahead on personal helping me chicago. i would think that the united nations would have spokespeople who can he was a jolly go ahead. well if mr katz will allow me the international committee of the red cross last june. they see declared to the siege in the blockade is illegal numerous u.n. and other bodies have declared that it's illegal and of course israeli officials themselves have stated that the pup us as collected collective punishment i can read you bait him quotes from the israeli foreign minister of a dollar lieberman among others saying the puppets for example is to apply political pressure to force palestinians to release the single israeli prisoner of war held in the gaza strip which understandable that as real might want him freed

but it's absolutely illegal under international law to apply collective punishment to a civilian population in order to free prisoners of war but that's what israeli officials themselves explain that they're doing and these are crimes by the way punishable under international law under the sudden fourth geneva conventions so we don't need to even wait for what mr gun is so other u.n. officials have to say i have to say we can just listen to israeli officials like avigdor lieberman explaining the punitive and illegal intent of this blockade and as i mentioned and i stress this israeli officials themselves say one thing in english to the international press and another thing in hebrew in english that talking about all the scary things that might be on the ship with holocaust survivor had the epstein and hebrew that briefing the cabinet that we have absolutely no evidence whatsoever of any threat coming from this flotilla so mr

katz's husband may may walk in far right wing circles in israel but it's it's wide . israel is in such a bad bind and times are up like diplomacy oh public relations you can please it's next relations you just don't. know where you got what i don't ask you a question years can i ask you a question do you think that even fire rules israeli city will be as severe as you think the israeli military will tell me i'm sorry generally i must keep this issue keep this orderly here if i could ask you if the israeli government doesn't think that this hotel is a threat do you think it will use military force to stop it in the next few days. i think that israel israel plans to enforce the sea blockade over the gaza strip because if it allows these ships to sail freely into gaza first of all yes there is a chance that they are carrying weapons that they are carrying terrorists we saw that in last year's flotilla there were armed mercenaries aboard the turkish baths and your ship mavi marmara which lynch to try saline has really sold. holding on to

allow the ship to sell really just because of that concerns them and the same to get as a standard journalism israel's were to allow these ships to sail into gaza then it would create a precedent that would then allow a ship like victoria which was several months ago tried to sail to gaza with the rainy an anti she already has a union because you know when you mean you brought up an interesting word precedent here and i think that's what everybody is looking at a precedent chris is this what the israelis are most afraid of is that the blockade will be broken if it's broken broken once in a big p.r. way they'll be no way for it to enforce it in the future. world peace if you want to unpack israeli paranoia and hysteria you should really be speaking to young cats mr katz and not to me but certainly i think that what he was talking about about the bind in terms of international p.r. that israel is in is

a very interesting point because on the international stage israel is looking increasingly deal it's in my eyes and again one can quote lieberman and other israeli officials one doesn't have to make an argument at all here and i think that this blockade and this flotilla that is in response to it i think is a real danger for israel's international reputation and so far israel is really floundering and showed it show no real response that i think convinces the world audience out there that it really is to get a man which is legitimate and is the kind of behavior that one expects from a state and i think the fact that the till is in response to an illegal collective punishment considerably weakens already weakened case all right ali i'm going to give you the last word in the program go ahead in chicago it's where we go from here now ali you didn't say as much as everyone else go ahead. peter i think if we if we ignore him and he is certainly unfolds by chris and we look at the fact that ships have been carrying weapons to the gaza strip for holly go ahead jump in but

you know. the state has for us and it was just very good journalism miracle well israel you know israel needs to end its occupation of blockade of the gaza strip it needs to and it needs to end its occupation and colonize ation and settlement in the west bank it needs to end the system that's and you scare a nation and to tell if these incidents are always a visit all right gentlemen this is very much what i expected from this group of time many thanks my guess a day in jerusalem and in chicago and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t.c. you next time and remember cross talk rules. and.