tv [untitled] June 29, 2011 8:30pm-9:00pm EDT
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talking about the private prison lobby and the toll it's taking on the country also we had more gas on afghanistan and many more subjects you can all check out there you can follow me on twitter at lauren lyster have a great night. issue is that so much different if you can use it if you're. in the market freedom flotilla two point zero four thousand photos to me and others from twenty two countries for safety joy and freedom full tilt to. a timer over here broadcasting live from washington d.c. coming up today on the big picture.
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four thousand pro palestinian activists from twenty two countries are said to join the freedom flotilla two in a bid to break israel's five year blockade on gaza where one point five million palestinians live where we manged to be seen is whether they'll be a violent repeat of last year's flotilla to gaza. crossed out the second freedom flotilla i'm joined by cots in jerusalem he's a military correspondent and defense analyst for the jerusalem post also in jerusalem we have chris gunness he is a spokesperson for the united nations relief and works agency a new children manager terry an organization with over ten thousand workers on the ground in gaza whose neutral work is based on the united nations charter and universal declaration and in chicago we cross to ali abunimah he is co-founder of the electronic intifada and author of one country a bold proposal to end the israeli palestinian impasse all right gentlemen this is
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cross talk and it means cross talk rules in effect but first let's have a look at what is called the second attempt to break the gaza blockade. a dangerous provocation or a bold move in defiance of a blockade freedom flotilla two sets of sales for troubled waters again only a year after its predecessors tragic attempt to deliver humanitarian aid to the gaza strip ignoring grave warnings from those railway government convoys carrying some one thousand activists from twenty countries determined to break an israeli blockade of the palestinian territory but after the recent political breakthrough in cairo and the easing of passage through the rougher crossing on the egyptian border to allow passage of people and goods the flotilla campaign will look more like an attempt on television and corner it security forces into aggression despite last year's the ball call that's on nine activists killed and forty more wounded but israeli government has vowed to continue intercepting any vessels that proceed to gaza shores interest acuity concerns we've already. gone four
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and four miles from the role containing hundreds of tons of weapons israel simply kmart's. the free flow of weapons and more to hamas from the sea but this time it seems to be more about a tug of war between israel and pro palestinian forces as well as israel's resolve to avoid a cross and that will undermine its grip on gaza and the sea this is the water there and the u.s. has made it clear that it stands by its traditional ally and has even more of american citizens to stay clear of the second filter were to gaza we do not believe therefore to you it is a necessary or useful to try to seize the people of gaza and we'll see that it's not for there to be for me to try to provoke actions and is really waters and creating a situation in which these are really going to be right could be found. now in
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the us the organizers of the flotilla remains a term and even in the face of possible violence it would seem that breaking the blockade of gaza is the key to alleviating what the united nations says has led to a humanitarian crisis in gaza. bain's and our suffering. the second freedom flotilla to gaza faces many of the same political and security issues of the first rotella palestinians and their international supporters demands an end to what both deemed as an illegal blockade of gaza but israel sounds more isolated and street wasn't than over who would choose to avoid the kind of catastrophic p.r. it received over its confrontation with the first botella or will it remain as uncompromising about its security as it's always been. for across our team.
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ok chris if i can go to you in jerusalem in preparing for this program and you get two different points of view what is this is this. political provocation or is this noble humanitarian mission because depending on what you want to read in western media it's one of the other and mostly it is a provocation how do you react to that being on the ground and knowing gaza so well . well the position of the united nations relief and works agency for which i speak is very clear on this if there were no a humanitarian crisis if there weren't a crisis in almost every aspect of life in gaza there'd be no need for the fertility if there were a blockade there'd be no need for fertility let's look at the basic humanitarian facts on the ground ninety five percent of all water in gaza is undrinkable forty percent of all disease is water borne is caused by poor water forty five point two percent of the labor force is unemployed eighty percent a dependency
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a tripling of the abject poor since the blockade there is clearly a crisis in every aspect of life in gaza we're trying to build schools one hundred new schools big problems there there's a crisis of education there's a crisis of public health millions of gallons of untreated sewage floating into the sea every day because there's a crisis of public health let's get rid of this blockade and there be no need for taylor ok ark i know you are so in jerusalem so there is a need for this photo just for more awareness reasons than any other purpose according to what christians said. well i think that in general the people of gaza definitely to some extent are suffering but i think that there are different ways to insert humanitarian aid to the gaza strip we saw recently the decision by the egyptian government to open up the rougher crossing in gaza shares a lengthly border with egypt which they would be able to use if anyone were to ask to be able to transfer goods from egypt into gaza israel maintains land crossings
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that are used almost on a daily basis for close to two hundred trucks if not more to transfer medicine supplies and humanitarian goods to the gaza strip and as chris mentioned before schools are being built in gaza israel's approved dozens of schools for some reason is dragging its feet and not working and taking action on some of those permits that it's been approved to move forward with inserting the building of but since last year's flotilla israel is definitely lacks the restrictions on the gaza strip i don't think that this is the way to do it we've seen most recently in february was the victoria ship interest carrying a rainy in arms sophisticated missiles and radars to hamas in the gaza strip israel has said it cannot allow for ships to sail freely to gaza because they will carry weapons for hamas which will then use them to attack israeli cities and therefore if you really care for the palestinians use either egypt or israeli courts and land crossings to bring in humanitarian goods why do it through the sea when israel says
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it won't allow it to happen because of its security unless you really are seeking a provocation ok only if i go to you in chicago why would this photo under any circumstances at all bring arms as part of a humanitarian and never i mean this is this would be counterintuitive i don't understand why the israelis are so upset about this unless they just don't want to see a precedent to be set where a photo can break the blockade that's what it's all about not security breaking the blockade is that right or wrong. well nobody believes that there are going to be arms on these ships not even the israeli government and as our it's reported yesterday and i quote verbatim security officials and and foreign ministry representatives informed the cabinet on sunday that israel has no information indicating that terrorists or anyone affiliated with a terror group is planning to take part in the flip tiller and according to the same israeli government sources. the flip to the participants will be european
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peace activists and american peace activists and others presumably not interested in violence and will quote present a more difficult public diplomacy challenge so not even the israelis believe that this flotilla is a threat and in fact it's a mistake to reduce this to an issue of humanitarian aid because for example the u.s. boat to gaza is not carrying humanitarian aid it's carrying only letters written by americans directed to people in gaza letters of solidarity toward the u.s. boat to gaza is eighty seven year old holocaust survivor hedi epstein pulitzer prize winning american novelist alice walker and a number of other americans all of whose names and faces are available on the u.s. boat to gaza website so we have the absurd situation now where israeli commandos have training to prevent an eighty seven year old holocaust survivor from
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reaching the gaza strip and the real problem here is that israel is trying to present the fla tilla as a military threat and the military situation when absolutely nobody not even the israeli government believes that and the point about the blockade and why people are seeking to break it is because israeli officials themselves for example israeli foreign minister avigdor lieberman in june. last year have stated clearly that the purpose of the blockade is collective punishment and political ok sure that's a very very important point if i go to you kate how do you react to doubt because it is we hear this a lot from members of the international community this is collective punishment against the people of gaza how do you respond to that. i you know personally i find it to be a little absurd you know israel pulled out of the gaza strip in two thousand and five with and hand extended for peace pulled out of the international borders
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instead of having the houses that are left behind and the settlements that are left behind to be used to to build agriculture and to build industry hamas which miley took over gaza in two thousand and seven decided to continuously attack israel with the reigning arms that it attains through ships that try to sail to gaza or to egypt and smuggle twenty thousand into the gaza strip. that time from the tunnels under under under under control is order which is a commission so i think that it says me i think that once again i think the old i think the next year israel has fired it is that israel is a sovereign state has the right israel is a sovereign state has israel is a professor citizens and to protect is gaza part of a way i want to go to christmas for the break i think that isn't quite i want to go to chris before the break that we just heard an interesting comment chris christie i devoted christian please before we go to the freeway please leave the rest before the break then in how much christmas how much is hot how much autonomy does the
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gazans have ok if israel isn't in control very little because although you are close enough that although mr cutts is talking precisely there's been no exports you can go in the month of may there is a there's a blockade there is an occupation israel controls the land the sea in the airspace in international that means there is an occupation going on and if i could just respond to one thing that mr katz said earlier and so driving it for your kudo's along with ashley young christmas tree council utilizing it so these you speak for those of us who are used to yeah because katz's no no i don't see how you started using water without you we just heard from him is a classic of the genre the idea that under is dragging its feet all right gentlemen i mean right now we'll continue this cash discussion right where we left off after a short break we'll continue our discussion on. stay with our. good luck and. see.
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of our if i could say the relationship between israel and gaza i mean how much autonomy does the gaza strip have in isn't it just israel wanting to determine the economic development of it i mean we their seems to be this in can should control everything that is done in gaza to make sure that it's no threat to israel and they can have no independent policy of its own good idea domestically or or with other palestinians or abroad thank you piece of the give me this chance i think you've said it all israel is patient because israel controls the land sea and air space of gaza effective control means it's not patient but if i could address something which mr katz said earlier about why not bring things in through rough and i'm afraid this is yet another example of his evidence free of journalism completely lacking any acquaintance with the situation on the ground i've actually been through the rough across and it's one small road going north it's one small road going south if you like need to feed seven hundred fifty thousand people each day
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it is hopelessly inadequate that is why we say to israel allow us to do our humanitarian work the poorest of the few weeks. he's finished your trail the costing is heard hundreds of tons of humanitarian goods to gaza through iraq just a few weeks ago as europeans should not say this is a little way to run trains we think for. gentlemen jumping here to jump in here in the gully in chicago to gentlemen i'm going to go to chicago right now i'm going to chicago how is the blockade of gaza counterproductive for israel's own interests how would you address that because it doesn't seem to get israel any score any points whatsoever ok what does it get from blockading gaza. well let's step back for a minute and if you listen to what kat says he's representing very well the israeli
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government viewpoint it's very clear what the agenda is the agenda is to disconnect gaza which is part and parcel of historic palestine and its people to disconnect it completely seal it and to dump it on to egypt that's why he's saying why don't you bring the goods through egypt but what is gaza really it is a giant prison for one point six million people eighty percent of them are refugees from towns and villages destroyed towns and villages that the in what is now israel and israel wants nothing to do with them for one reason only and that's because they're not jews that's the fundamentally racist nature of this blockade because if the people of gaza who are native and indigenous to palestine know what mr katz would call israel israel would open the prison gates of gaza and welcome them home so this is why the blockade is fundamentally political fundamentally of racist and
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fundamentally yes you're going to have a chance to respond as the israel wants to throw them all into egypt and then knock palestinians on across parts of egypt their part of palestine i know lisa can you something i should respond right now you had in jerusalem go ahead go ahead replied the alley i apologize but i think ali is completely falsifying the fact that israel has continuously offered the palestinians in negotiations a palestinian state built on an established land in the gaza strip and the west bank with continuity in a way of connecting those two persons implies this israelis on three points of new in the deep eyes and there are twenty three into the air of animation is this really so it is interesting as the photo is real. because there she. says. it is rolled down. because they are this gentleman we're all talking over there else quietly go ahead. chris go ahead i want chris to go you are saying something i have
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example i. have going to see during christmas go ahead chris gentlemen israel has the right to do this it's like ok we'll talk about it if you can begin to build a state this idea that garza can become part of a state and that israel is opening its arms wide to that possibility simply is not borne out in reality to begin with the policy of isolating blockading both politically and economically of course does not sit with what mr katz is saying you cannot possibly think that you could have a viable state in the situation the garza is in there is a policy of collective punishment and that has been condemned as a violation of international that's why israel is finding itself due to surmise because it's on the wrong side of international law if israel wanted to the just might itself and as a member state of the u.n. i sincerely hope that israel does and i would support that process then it has to
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get on the right side of international law that means lifting this blockade which is a violation of international law it is a collective punishment and send the idea that collective punishment can somehow lead to statehood is an absurdity is the cat's nose up gentlemen gentlemen we have to be fair here because go ahead you know go ahead because it's two against one here go ahead i want to give you the paratime go ahead. well i'm in the middle neutral to be honest right but i'll say that grant that that that the if you look at the numbers in the fact that the term blockade is just it's not accurate because if you look over the past year and the past half a year at least over ten thousand to fifteen thousand palestinians have been allowed into israel for medical treatment trucks over two hundred cross into gaza on a daily basis in israel see a blockade has been confirmed to be reaffirmed approved by international organizations by the united nations and by different allies of israel. as it was fairly soon since the security purposes right now a guy who for
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a guy who you can look at a single so i mean you bring up a very interesting one ali and i go to you is to blockade legal or illegal under international law let's clear this out go ahead how are you going really badly in chicago you're trying to please go ahead and personally helping me in chicago go ahead i would think that the united nations would have spokespeople. go ahead. well if mr katz will allow me the international committee of the red cross last june. the sea declare to see the siege in the blockade is illegal numerous un and other bodies have declared that it's illegal and of course israeli officials themselves have stated that the purpose is collected collective punishment i can read you vote baten quotes from israeli foreign minister of a bill lieberman among others saying the puck was for example is to apply political pressure to force palestinians to release the single israeli prisoner of war held
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in the gaza strip which understandable that israel might want him freed but it's absolutely illegal under international law to apply collective punishment to a civilian population in order to free prisoners of war but that's what israeli officials themselves explain that they're doing and these are crimes by the way punishable under international law under the sudden fourth geneva conventions so we don't need to even wait for what mr gun is so other u.n. officials have to say i have to say we can just listen to israeli officials like average joe lieberman explaining their punitive and illegal intent of this blockade and as i mentioned and i stress this israeli officials themselves say one thing in english to the international press another thing in hebrew in english talking about all the scary things that might be on the ship with holocaust survivor heavy
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epstein in hebrew that briefing the cabinet that we have absolutely no evidence whatsoever of any threat coming from this split so mr katz's has about a may may walk in far right wing circles in israel but it's it's why israel is in such a bad pint in terms of our lovely pichler ratio public. lation you completely should sex relations you just don't. know where you get what i don't ask you question yours and i ask you a question do you think that even fired at israeli said he will be as if you think he's really dilatory will tell i'm sorry gentlemen it's not risky to say shell's we keep this orderly here if i could ask you if the israeli government doesn't think that this hotel is a threat do you think it will use military force to stop it in the next few days i think that israel israel plans to enforce the sea blockade over the gaza strip because if it allows the ships to sail freely into gaza first of all yes there is a chance that they are carrying weapons that they are carrying terrorist we saw
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that in last year's flotilla there were armed mercenaries aboard the much turkish got injured ship mavi marmara which lynch to try silly into israeli soldiers and israel holding this allows the ocean to still relieved because it was the best concerts and for and the same to this experience as his hands. were to allow these ships to sail into gaza and it would create a precedent that would then allow a ship like victoria which is several months ago tried to sail to gaza with the rainy an anti she already. here in the rain you may have brought up an interesting word precedent here and i think that's what everybody's looking at a precedent chris is this what the israelis are most afraid of ok is that the blockade will be broken if it's broken once in a big p.r. way they'll be no way for it to enforce it in the future. well peter if you want to unpack israeli paranoia and hysteria you should really be speaking to yak of cats mr kurtz and not to me but certainly i think that what he was talking about about
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the binds in terms of international p.r. that israel is in is a very interesting point because on the international stage israel is looking increasingly dealerships in my eyes and again one can quote me to lead men and other israeli officials one doesn't have to make an argument up it's all here and i think that this blockade and this flotilla that is in response to it i think is a real danger for israel's international reputation and so far israel is really floundering it show it show no real response and i think convinces the world audience out there that it really is acting in a manner which is legitimate and is the kind of behavior that one expects from a state and i think the fact that the flotilla is in response to an illegal collective punishment considerably weakens on already weakens case right now i am going to give you the last word in the program go ahead in chicago it's where we go from here now ali you didn't say as much as everyone else go ahead. heater i think if well if we ignore all the ills in the israeli unfolds by christmas and we look
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at the fact that ships have been carrying weapons to the gaza strip for only go ahead jump in and let you know that he's really solid state has for us and it will displace journalism israel you know israel needs to end its occupation of blockade of the gaza strip it needs to end it needs to end its occupation and colonize ation and settlements in the west bank it needs to end systems and use terminations areas to tell us these incidents are always a visit all right gentlemen this is very much what i see from this. time many thanks my guess a day in jerusalem and in chicago and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t.c. you next time and remember crosstalk rules. taking .
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