sure enough you can seal a t. and since original my car broke so chill my current ground legal who told mccann's division marco resort to the child who started the sochi august colin mochrie child would result from a cold overly closer to home with her riviera which only cause citrus hotel mccown . bookham back type look at our main headlines now greece is part of it passes a vote on how to implement cost thirty measures absent periods and thousands other government to spread to sell some of greek assets to me and then there's to stay afloat and many say it's a sign up to. three men to each sentenced to twenty five years for taking part in an f.b.i. sting break close to put up synagogues in the north the questions were raised about

u.s. tactics of one thousand nine hundred tara. russia questions or france's admission that it supplied weapons to have been rebels while golfing son claims nato airstrikes have wiped out whole families that's in an exclusive interview delta. and elsie's debate show cross-talk is up next it'll balance his guests if the western lead in the interim intervention in libya is getting stuck in the sons of north africa stay with us and. we'll. bring you the latest in science and technology from russia. we've got the future of coverage. can.

you think. you know welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle quagmire and standoff in libya is there a military solution to the conflict in libya can a stable democratic and whole libya be created through the use of force museum change and is there still a realistic possibility of a political solution. that can. start. the process of the ongoing conflict in libya i'm joined by jim brann in london he's the spokesperson for the stop the war coalition also in london we have and his album r.t. he's a libyan political analyst and in los angeles we cross to omar torre of he is a political analyst and a founding member of the libyan human rights commission all right gentlemen this is cross talk to means cross-talk rules in effect and that means you can jump anytime you want and i always start this program with the person that had to get up early as far as i'm going to go to you amara in los angeles is there

a political solution to the conflict ongoing conflict now in libya because we see why mainstream media says that's not a possibility though we hear here european officials saying there is there should be a possibility of a political solution and we have the the international criminal court saying they tell khadafi his son and a security chief should be indicted for war crimes and that kind of says you shouldn't talk to people like that so i asked my question again is there a political solution to the ongoing conflict quagmire standoff in libya. peter thank you so much for having me on. it depends on your definition of what a political solution is. quite simply if he and his family leave libya we want to have any war we want to have any bloodshed we want to have any killings going on and the libyans will go about their. construction of

very democracy and i want to refer your audience to a report that just came out yesterday by the national democratic institute you can find that on my web site on our turby dot org and which actually spells out what the transition period would be and how it would take place to answer your question really yes there is a political solution and if he leaves his kids then we can actually begin to. omar omar there's a moment i can interrupt there's no indication they're going to leave ok so i mean to stop the bloodshed maybe there should be talks and i'd like to turn that question to jim i'll ask the question and can there be a political solution because the current regime shows no interest in leaving the scene it will continue to fight and after the indictments from the international criminal court it looks like you'll continue to fight because there is no way out now for those people what do you think. yes i mean i think i think the quagmire

will only get worse you cannot present i think you cannot present the interests of nato as being the interest of the libyan people nato and the nato powers have converted to the libyan civil war into something else and that will roll on and i know the fact for example that today the african union summit convenes in. in equitorial guinea and we know that gadhafi won't be there but the question one question might be will shear of sudan be because remember that there was the if you know body has ever been indicted by the international criminal court except somebody from africa and the most the highest ranking one is the president of sudan and the african countries are cocking a snoeck this international criminal court because it is seen to be simply a tool of the western powers and that will roll on so the credibility of it for example will be shot and the fact that william hague gets up when the international criminal court issued its indictment two days ago and says this only proves our

point remember that the statute of the international criminal court is entirely skewed the supreme international crime as it's defined is the crime of aggression and it was the foreign office legal advisor here in london who to a man and woman said that the iraq war was a crime of aggression and that's simply been left out of the statute otherwise tony blair would be on trial in london for example or in the hague or wherever so it's very much seen as askew there's three mischaracterizations here and there are right i gave omar let me first clearly people first and then we'll discuss that here because i just would like to maybe go on a little bit further with we're told jim had to say here it seems to me now that meat when nato decides it wants to use military force against the country uses the international criminal court to is a political tool but we know it's really turning into last year in service of warfare when you think about that. well.

if you mean. the because of the fact that tony blair and george bush weren't voting for war crimes. you know by extension we shouldn't because i thought feel that whether or not these people are and it's the case that the crimes warrants. such as. if verdict being put on their head and with a very very strong very very strong statement for the rest of the because in the world but if you do follow such vicious and such horrible crimes against your people but you won't be given or. as easily as you think you may. tony blair or george bush should be should be investigated for their crimes in iraq but it doesn't mean by extension you know that the arab dictators of the world should get away with such heinous crimes ok omar you want to jump in there i mean

if you see it seems kind of i did you know you should be indicted for war crimes if you kill other people not your own people but if you kill your own people you should be indicted and it seems kind of skewed in itself omar go ahead. well what i'm trying to say there is no civil war going on in libya we're not talking to war factions with equal amount of weapons the libyan regime decided to kill its own people with its own military machine. innocent civilians that's one too i think. from london is saying there are no people that have been indicted outside of africa the balkan states we have at least one or two people there were indicted in. the us you know you know if i already. know you're going to join i think the international i think the international criminal court which began operations in two thousand and two specifically the international criminal court it has now and i think five sets of people all of them from africa and nobody else that's just

a factual correction ok but on maher i mean if you're saying this isn't just civil war then what is it because i guess the obama administration isn't call it a war either he likes to use the term kinetic military action is that what you would call it as well with this kinetic military action. you know i haven't heard that clearly or no that was to be honest with you but yeah but it is really imagine what it was it was a divine it as it is. yeah go ahead but i think i think we're looking over we're looking at a very different perspective i mean you can call it a civil war if you'd like to but i think. you're almost a quick thing that the two moral equivalents to more equal solids which is a group of folks but it was a revolution occurring in libya and it was being suppressed with the most violent means on our. missiles and bullets were fired at civilians and so if you want to call it civil war through free to ignore the fact on the ground which is that it is

personal or me if i were talking a civilian population i don't think that you know the history. as a civil war. ok jim if i can go to you why should nato be in the business of forcefully changing the regime presumably to bring democracy and one has to wonder if it's going to keep the country together is one sovereign state i mean why isn't nato mission now. well i think in a way i'm as police finger on it although i think. in the wrong way the fact that libya has been singled out in this way the fact that for example could afy has been indicted in the fastest process ever indulged in by the international criminal court and precedented speed whereas no other arab leader and i would single out in this particular context for example the king of bahrain is not being singled out. no nor has any other head of anyone or any other arab. i mean i don't follow the

bankers because you think it's and you're ignoring a very annoying the for the good here is these are completely different type of force to suppress and whilst we were facing the same force in libya as the bahrain is for the libyan people not asking for international intervention but when the scenario changed the reality in the fundamentals of the details in the grove were completely different it was an armed conflict now the civilians on and the army is on and it calls for intervention it's not the case and by her own please do not try to only when an israeli it is a very good story and i am if i could stay with you i could stay with you and it's real quickly i mean i don't think anybody on this program is wants to justify anything that mr gadhafi has done or not done i don't see that happening here on this program however the indictment does seem to legitimize it's not moral or morally allow the continued bombing of libya and i think that's the point that jim is getting at here but i think well you know we're going to you can you explain to

me you know each other ok i'm sorry unless you know we're going to jam go ahead and the bombing of our country i mean you'd be hard pushed for many many libyans complaining of of being on them in not bombing anything you know libyans unself wouldn't want to be gone and not bombing jewel use facilities they're not bombing for the most part i don't find of interest that i would accept but there have been cases where a few civilians have thought it and subsequently civilians dying but oh well and i don't for a very minute the fact that it's the intention behind it is intervention to try to kill civilians but it's beyond the fact that it is not for it is not for this for me to entertain or debate so if on bombing the country almost seems that we're trying to consulate in syria that's not the case it's not the case it's been a success ok amara lamarre i think i referred to you is jim i would go more go ahead you had a point go ahead. say it is and diving get that is . not has no relationship to nato is increasing its bombing or the start of the

bombing or ending the bombing you know it's that this guy committed crimes against the populace civilians and he deserves he pain is crimes from rape of women to. bring in mercenaries from outside the country and killing people so this is you know this is the truth of the matter he can do it all he conducted himself in this fashion and he deserves to be tried as a matter of fact i would really rather see him tried inside libya and this man this is a february seventeenth revolution on are not the only crimes that get that he committed he's been committing crimes in libya since nineteen seventy three i mean there's thousands and thousands of people were killed and and torture it is a lot of them are really to jump in here gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on libya stay with r.t.

. if you. if. it was the fourth quarter. of. this street still keeps its secrets of time to reveal the truth of the soviet files on oxy some.

more news today violence is once again flared up. these are the images the world has been seeing from the streets of canada after. shyam operations are today. case. welcome back to cross talk i'm curious about to remind you we're talking about regime change in libya. the case.

ok jim i'd like to go to you in london me we just heard omar mentioning about rapes and other heinous crimes being committed in libya right now but you know i look at wait wait mainstream media and you see those reports but then i checked amnesty international human rights watch and they have not been able to determine any credible witnesses to mass rapes in khadafi libya now there seems to be a very big skewing of lines here between what mainstream media western governments and what reputable human rights groups have to say about what's happening in libya how do you explain that. i think the thing is very simple you cannot possibly take the question of libya or what happened in libya outside of the context of the nato powers interest geopolitical interest it makes no sense whatsoever i think the starting point of any discussion should remain what was agreed in the first half of the twentieth century and it should stay there the fact that they are shifting the

position the fact that they are tearing up agreements in the first half of the twentieth century makes no difference if you abandon that as your starting point then i think you fall into the swamp and it's the very same swamp that was established in the first half of the twentieth century which arrived at the conclusion that you could not use humanitarian pretext for the intervention for the use of force on the world scale that was the issue that was what was agreed in the late one nine hundred forty s. and i think i think that nothing of that has changed and the regime is rooted in prison or i was a. if you have the answer call no peter if you allow me peter if you are already on the job and actually and i couldn't distinguish you saying why go ahead you know what i had on or i'm quite disturbed to hear people i mean you're referring to. human rights watch or amnesty international or whatever reporting agencies as far

as rape in libya. there has been definite definite rapes in libya of at least three hundred fifty reported cases i was just in libya for three and a half weeks i've seen people in tears families. and in such bad emotional condition because either the daughters were raped specifically to order a scan directly from god and yet the way they know you are omar that i dismiss it is true or not true but you know media reports and a lot of media coverage of the arab awakening he's been very skewed for very different reasons here and we have plenty of people that are still want you don't want to justify nato's aggression is well i mean and this if i can do it you have to say this if i can go to you i mean do you want to see a libya that is created by nato through aggression through war is designed you see it without how do you sit with it what do you want to do i want to use that word

aggressive because you hear words like and want to employ i mean first and foremost the aggression there's no end to the people the people and so we have to come also if. this isn't the other question we have higher morals and values but what about international law what about international law. well intellectual insolvency to hell with. the modern world and for a minute these bizarre ideological sponsors which come at the expense of people when we talk about this because because it has. some kind of you know. mechanic kind of you know morrow if you want to call it because i'm on a morning call of the new dia and i care about what he thinks of sovereignty i see more people being raped doesn't work all being murdered oh and the playing international law saying so over it is already when we were going to order a being murdered and if we followed the logical conclusion of and the line of argument of someone like jim will be mourning hundreds of thousands of civilian

deaths in libya and you want to trust with us to look at what would be different has no idea of his track record or his intentions and doesn't you know for me they're working on a very very morally dubious ground here but i thought it was a start but if you go into the second point and the second point is that if we feel that nato made as aggression as we're going to roll call it is that is the defining factor in libya were taken into account in that you know it's completely besides the fact the fact is is the libyans here the equal power brokers they're the ones that are fighting on the ground they're the ones that are risking their lives they're the ones and molding this country in a vision that they want to and i think we have heroes as europeans as people of the world here that have gone into the twenty first century also have aligned ourselves with holly and moral values ok well for this is this fear just even if it can be used to all of us of if i go to him here you know international law was created to protect people ok and to avoid these kinds of things ok i mean i'll ask you the same question i mean he nato intervention i'll take the word aggression out if you want intervention here there could be

a mission creep that we've seen over the last few months can now create a viable libya that is sovereign and not dependent upon outside forces like the countries that make up nato particularly the united states. but nader took time to say would you like he was close to we did have a un go ahead jim go ahead what what you will have in libya if nato succeed the heart succeeds is a nato peace and it will be that kind of conditional peace it will not be a peace arrived at by the libyan people because nato will present itself a nato nato encompasses something like between seventy five and eighty eight percent of military spending the three nato powers in charge of this invention of the three biggest military spenders all three of the four billion it's regarded as a good deal there in disarray as it is and in surround as a result of the employees i think their military force shall be the decisive factor

that is their overriding interest so that they can intervene in the arab spring for example so that the libyan people will not do what the gyptian and so needy and he's avoiding has to sort them out listening to his i don't buy this or you have to know your ambition of being worse than america you're not really looking at what you allow yourself the higher moral values here and support people who want freedom you know would you allow them to go out and be massacred just because you know that it is you know you mentioned to people like i'd like to school mark question i mean if this intervention the international criminal courts indictments doesn't that undermine what the opposition the rebels rebels are supposed to do because now they do sweep out and say well let nato take care of it for us ok then they also become puppets of an outside forces that weiss not for you know that is a theoretical question it's a fair question omar what do you think about that. you know first of all you know why are you set why are we saying that nato is intervening or

conduct and aggression in libya they have received their mandate by the un resolution nineteen seventy three i mean by that i just remind you let me remind you of an event that took place in two thousand and eight putin of russia went into georgia and tried to save the georgians and the russians that live in georgia i guess why did you go anywhere and got a gun and received a mandate from the u.n. to go in and save life under you pretty thought under the pretext or the reality of protecting human rights and that's exactly what happened there and and it wasn't an aggression against georgia so it's a totally different set of analysis totally different analysis a different type of book or a very different one point from this you know i mean it's apollo mission the whole things about mission creep nine hundred resolution nine hundred seventy three said one thing and we have something completely different now that is the point jim what

do you think about what the problem is that no fly zone to everyone here boots on the ground that's a big difference jim go ahead if if the if the head of goldman and military superpower and two. dominant members of nato they put their intention is that the government of that country shoal change that's the that's the issue and if they do it by violence the people that are so sure that the people decide the issue that's an issue. because we're only a month away from or four months away from it so let's not try to turn to because it will happen for republicans there we all know it's all documented and these people want the trains but a lot of protests they were massacred they were massacred has been last because and . why do you want to you want to replay it when we must go to libya go ahead is almost going to leave me a chair with a plume and without

a layer of those who put it up in the massacres. in the south of tripoli though it's a curse. so you said back in february march where was the massacre you said the massacre where we're talking about under good food but have been crippling the massacre of. massacres in tripoli on loan protest right so we were short of money already you're offering this or you're being very very colorful when you when you refer to people who are over for the second week i'm referring to the second week of the year of the protests when they reach tripoli and went over the bridge of holland the security of this thousands of protests was the soil and they were shot at own areas and professional. areas that had been through there is that my friends there and people have been massacred and you want to try calling later and so it's a question it was a it's later this intervening is all right gentlemen gentlemen let's not dwell too much on this or omar i'd like to ask you this here because it's have a broader context you know if we look we're old if we look at the world we want to see would be mourning the death of thousands of those the more people as we move ok

we're in rwanda but i don't want to have the online courses i hope that you don't have the only consider well i think niebuhr saying go ahead you say joe has a lot on each conscience to go back to kosovo and we can get a stance ok jim go ahead once i graduate you're saying i'm asked are nasa scientists time he is saying because some people were shot in tripoli although this wasn't publicized by take his word for it some people were shot in tripoli in february some people were shot on that basis nato the mighty the sole power block in the world can then proceed to launch a war of eleven thousand missions including four and a half thousand strike missions because they claim. on that basis why they cannot nato intervened anywhere a little to any time has any government should anybody go threat to kill people and others a threat to kill people and others it was imminent it was imminent people who let out about what was going to charge time i think we're wasting too much time you

know mark you know last word on margaret's last word of this program go ahead. i well first of all jim i'm sorry to tell you that you have absolutely no credibility in your argument whatsoever the whole entire world says this on all networks from c.n.n. so as is here a to b b c two some parts of russian t.v. the libyan people deserve to be helped then they were saved to hell and that's that's the bottom line so to say that that you know that they do does and doesn't have any legal right to go in and help the libyan people from being massacred by the libyan regime just makes absolutely right on that knowing general and i'm sure we all have the welfare of the libyan people at stake here many thanks my guest today in london and in los angeles and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember prost talks with.