it's all false now here mostly this is a rush to his falls as weapons supplies to the libyan rebels saying it's invalidation of the u.n. arms involved meanwhile the international criminal court has issued an arrest warrant only gives the family the libyan leader's song claims the court is not impartial in an exclusive interview with r.t. . greece's hall of injuries or how to put into effect the newest. salute

to take the streets and protest now the government is ready to sell song greek assets. to stay afloat but many people feel it then themselves that are being put on sale. three men know each sentenced to twenty five years for taking part in an f.b.i. sting in a fake plot to blow up synagogues in new york but questions are raised about u.s. time six of fighting homegrown terror. these debates cross talk is up next he develops his guess at the western led military intervention in libya is getting stuck in the sons of north africa stay with us. well. the latest in science and technology from the realm.

we've done the future covered. you. know you know welcome to cross out i'm peter lavelle quagmire and standoff in libya is there a military solution to the conflict in libya can a stable democratic and whole libya be created through the use of force museum change and is there still a realistic possibility of a political solution. to. the process of the ongoing conflict in libya i'm joined by jim brann in london he's the spokesperson for the stop the war coalition also in london we have and is al gore marty he's a libyan political analyst and in los angeles we cross to omar tora b. he is a political analyst and a founding member of the libyan human rights commission all right gentlemen this is

crosstalk that means crosstalk rules in effect and that means you can jump any time you want and i always start this program with the person that had to get up early as far as i'm going to go to you amara in los angeles is there a political solution to the conflict ongoing conflict now in libya because we see why mainstream media says that's not a possibility though we hear here european officials saying there is there should be a possibility of a political solution and we have the the international criminal court saying that his son and a security chief should be indicted for war crimes and that kind of says you shouldn't talk to people like that so i ask my question again is there a political solution to the ongoing conflict quagmire standoff in libya. peter thank you so much for having me on. it depends on your definition of what a political solution is. quite simply if he and his family leave libya we want to have any war we want to have any bloodshed we want to

have any killings going on and the libyans will go about their. construction a very democracy and i want to refer your audience to a report that just came out yesterday by the national democratic institute you can find that on my web site on our turby dot org and which actually spells out what the transition period would be and how it would take place to answer your question really yes there is a political solution and that he believes that his kids then we can actually begin to. omar omar there's a lot more i can interrupt there's no indication they're going to leave ok so i mean to stop the bloodshed maybe there should be talks and i'd like to turn that question to jim i mean i'll ask the question again can there be a political solution because the current regime shows no interest in leaving the scene it will continue to fight and after the indictments from the international criminal court it looks like they will continue to fight because there is no way

out now for those people do you think. yes i mean i think i think the quagmire will only get worse you cannot present i think you cannot present the interest of nato as being the interest of the libyan people nato and the nato powers have converted to the libyan civil war into something else and that will roll on and i know the fact for example that today the african union summit convenes in. in equitorial pinney and we know that gadhafi won't be there but the question one question might be will shear of sudan be because remember that there was a body has ever been indicted by the international criminal court except somebody from africa and the most the highest ranking one is the president of sudan and the african countries are cocking a snoop at this international criminal court because it is seen to be simply a tool of the western powers and that will roll on so the credibility of it for

example will be shot and the fact that william hague gets up when the international criminal court issued this indictment two days ago and says this only proves our point remember that the statute of the international criminal court is entirely skewed the supreme international crime as it's defined if the crime of aggression and it was the foreign office legal advisers here in london who to a man and woman said the iraq war with a crime of aggression and that simply being left out of the statute otherwise tony blair would be on trial in london for example or in the hague or wherever so it's very much seen as askew there's two mischaracterizations here and there are all right i gave you no more let me firstly read the first tannish and then we'll discuss that here because i just like by to maybe go on a little bit further with what to jim had to say here it seems to me now a bit late when nato decides it wants three or use military force against a country that uses the international criminal court to is

a political tool we now it's really turning into last year in service of warfare what do you think about. well. if you mean. the because of the fact that tony blair and george bush weren't voted for war crimes. shouldn't because i thought few of them whether or not these people are both of them know it's the case that the crimes of war. such as. it verdict being put on their head and with a very very strong growth rate strong statement for the rest of the i know because in the world but if you do follow such vicious and such horrible crimes against your people but you won't be given or killed for as easily as you think you may. tell you blair and george bush should be should be investigated for their crimes in iraq but it doesn't mean by extension you know that the arab dictators of the world

to get away with such heinous crimes ok omar you want to jump in there i mean it is he it seems kind of i did you know you should be indicted for war crimes if you kill other people not your own people but if you kill your own people you should be indicted it seems kind of skewed in itself omar go ahead. but what i'm trying to say there is no civil war going on in libya we're not talking to war factions with equal amount of weapons the libyan regime decided to kill its own people with its own military machine. innocent civilians that's one too i think. in london in saying there are no people that had been indicted outside of africa by the balkan states we have at least one or two people there were indicted in. the article you. know you're going to jail and i think the international i think the international criminal court which began operations in two thousand and two

specifically the international criminal court has now and i think five sets of people all of them from africa and nobody else that's just a factual correction ok but omar i mean you're saying this isn't a civil war then what is it because i guess the obama administration isn't call it a war either it likes to use the term kinetic military action is i would you would call it is well what is kinetic military action. you know i haven't heard that really don't know that at least to be honest with you but yeah but it's really more knowledgeable sources who want to this is a define it as it is. yeah go ahead but i think i think we're looking over we're looking at a very different perspective i mean you can call it a civil war if you'd like to but i think. you're almost a critic of the two moral equivalence to morally equal swords which is a group of the fact that there's a revolution occurring in libya and it was being suppressed with the most violent

means on a you know until the missiles and bullets were fired at civilians and so if you want to call it a civil war feel free to ignore the fact on the ground which is that their view is personal or i would like a civilian population i'm hoping that you know their history. as a civil war. ok jim if i can go to you why should nato be in the business of forcefully changing regime presumably to bring democracy and one has to wonder if it's going to keep the country together is one sovereign state i mean why is that nato its mission now well i think in a way honest police is finger on it although i think. in the wrong way the fact that libya has been singled out in this way the fact that for example could afi has been indicted in the fastest process ever indulged in by the international criminal court unprecedented speed whereas no other arab leader and i would single out in

this particular context for example the king of bahrain has not been singled out. but no no has any other headliner in any other arab. i mean i'm told the veterans here think it's and you're ignoring a very good the here is is the completely different type of force to suppress and wolf we were facing the same force in libya as the bahrain is for the libyan people not asking for international intervention but when the scenario changed the reality in the fundamentals of the details in the grove were completely different it was an armed conflict now the civilians on and the army is on and it calls for intervention it's not the case and her pleas not orthogonally been an issue and it is a very good thing to do you know if i could stay with you i could stay with you and it's real quickly i mean i don't think anybody on this program is wants to justify anything that mr gadhafi has done or not done i don't see that happening on this program however the indictment does seem to legitimize if not moral or morally

allow the continued bombing of libya and i think that's the point that jim is getting at here but i think well we're doing a good morning and you can explain to me nothing to do with each other ok i'm sorry i didn't go first unless you know we're going to jim go ahead and the bombing of our country i mean you'd be hard pushed for money and the libyans are complaining of of tolerance of being on them in but bombing anything that you know libyans and so if we don't want to go on the bombing joyeuse facilities they're not bombing for the most part and i look for in the interest level i would accept that there have been cases where a few civilian supported and subsequently civilians died but oh well and to train for every minute but it's the intention behind letters and prevention to try to kill civilians but it's beyond the fact that it is not for. me to entertain or debate so i find that bombing the country almost assumes that we're trying to bomb civilians there that's not the case it's not because it's been a success ok omar or mario i referred to you is jim i would go more go ahead you had a point go ahead. no one say it is and diving. is

not has no relationship to nato is increasing its bombing or the start of the bombing or ending the bombing you know it's this guy committed crimes against the popular civilians and he deserves his heinous crimes from rape of women to bring in mercenaries from outside the country and killing people so this is you know this is the truth of the matter he could you know he conducted himself in this fashion and he deserves to be tried as a matter of fact i would really rather see. inside libya and this man this is a february seventeenth revolution. are not only crimes they get committed he's been communicate rheims in libya since nineteen seventy three i mean there's thousands and thousands of people were killed and. a lot of them are going to have

to jump in here gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on libya stay with r.t. . i was just thinking about my future before the foreign companies came i dreamed of owning a camp telling factory. we have less garbage and now. some visitors who come here make fun of me. garbage boy i'm not bad like people think. i'm

a good person. it's just the people don't see me. but i feel it was time people like me. that i feel people will start to appreciate us. from. from welcome to the wanted this is called. the one we are trying to do she is with us a deal under fire and fighting for his life good job his son speaks to the city's. kick. start. to. welcome back to cross talk i'm curious about to remind you we're talking about regime change in libya. egypt. story.

ok jim i'd like to go to you in london me we just heard omar mentioning about al rapes and other are heinous crimes being committed in libya right now but you know i looked at way way mainstream media and you see those reports but then i checked amnesty international human rights watch and they have not been able to determine any credible witnesses to mass rapes in khadafi libya now there seems to be a very big skewing of lines here between what nane stream media western governments and what reputable human rights groups have to say about what's happening in libya how do you explain that. i think the thing is very simple you cannot possibly take the question of libya or what happened in libya outside of the context of the nato powers interests geopolitical interests it makes no sense whatsoever i think the starting point of any discussion should remain what was agreed in the first half of

the twentieth century and it should stay there the fact that they are shifting the position the fact that they are tearing up agreements in the first half of the twentieth century makes no difference if you abandon that as your starting point then i think you fall into the swamp and it's the very same swamp that was established in the first half of the twentieth century which arrived at the conclusion that you could not use humanitarian pretext for the intervention for the use of force on the world scale that was the issue that was world with agreed in the late one nine hundred forty s. and i think i think that nothing of that has changed and the region is to be in prison or a right as i. if you have the answer. peter if you allow me peter if here a lot of them are going to join me and i couldn't distinguish you saying why go ahead you know what. i'm quite disturbed to hear people i mean you're referring to . human rights watch or amnesty international or whatever reporting agencies as

far as. you know there has been definite definite rapes in libya have at least three hundred fifty reported cases i was just in libya for three and a half weeks i've seen people in tears families. and. such bad emotional condition because daughters were raped specifically the orders can directly from god and yes the way they know you are omar that i dismiss it is true or not true but you know media reports and a lot of media coverage of the arab awakening he's been very skewed for very different reasons here and we have plenty of people also want to you want to justify nato's aggression is well i mean and if i think that you want to see this uprising go to you i mean do you want to see a libya that is created by nato through aggression and through wars designed to use

it without how do you sit with that what do you what are you going to use it we're going to hear. one second what are you implying i mean first and foremost the aggression there's no end to the people but people and so when we have the criminals of the heart of a moral values and you see in the world aggression when you know how your morals and values know what about international law what about international law interest well international law and solvency to hell with sovereignty if people are throwing and being raped on my land i'm sorry but i won't go into play for a minute these bizarre or ideological sponsors which come at the expense of people when we talk about sort of interest because because the tree has the place or some kind of you know more kind of kind of you know more if you want to call it because a monarch you know want to kind of start in libya but i care about what he thinks of sovereignty i see more people being raped personnel who were murdered i wanted playing international law saying so reduce all into one group when told of being murdered and if we followed the logical conclusion of and the line of argument of

someone like him who would be mourning hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths in libya and you want to trust with us to look at what would be different has no idea of his track record or his intentions and doesn't you know for me they're walking on a very very morally dubious ground here but trying to address that but it may go with us looking for and the second point is that if we feel that nato later has aggression as we're going to grow i call it is that is the point in preparing libya where taking into account something that you know it's completely besides the fact the fact is is the libyans here the equal power brokers they're the ones fighting on the ground they're the ones are risking their lives they're the ones and molding this country in a vision that we want to and i think we have to sit here as as europeans as people of the world here that have gone in for twenty first century missiles have aligned ourselves with hoyer moral values and i really went for this and that's fearless to me if i can be used to ourself if i go to him here you know international law was created to protect people ok and to avoid these kinds of things ok i mean i'll ask

you the same question i mean he nato intervention i'll take the word aggression out if you want intervention here because the mission creep that we've seen over the last few months can i create a viable libya that is sovereign and not dependent upon outside forces like other countries that make up nato particularly the united states. the native tongue of the same region which he was close to would you be un go ahead jim go ahead what what you will have in libya if nato succeeds or half succeed is a nato peace and it will be that kind of conditional peace it will not be a peace arrived at by the libyan people because nato will have presented itself to nato nato encompasses something like between seventy five and eighty eighty percent of world military spending the three nato powers in charge of this invention are the three biggest military spenders all three of the four billion that's regarded as a religion there in disarray as it is and you're in surrender as

a result of the employees like their military force shall be the decisive factor that is their overriding interest so that they can intervene in the arab spring for example so that the libyan people will not do what the gyptian into an easy and good wishes to sort them out of the senate by then it's all you have. until america you know if you look at what you allow yourself the whole your moral values and support people who want freedom you know would you allow them to go to be massacred just because you know this you know you mentioned the people and i'd like i'd like to school mark question i mean this intervention the international criminal court's indictments this is that undermined what the opposition the rebels the rebels are supposed to do because now they just back and say well let nato take care of it for us ok then they also become puppets of an outside force is that why some not for you know that is a theoretical question it's a fair question omar what do you think about that. you know first of all you know

why are you set why are we saying that nato is intervening or conduct and aggression in libya they have received their mandate by the un resolution nineteen seventy three i mean by that i let me just remind you let me remind you of an event that took place in two thousand and eight putin of russia went into georgia and try to save the georgians and the russians that live in georgia i guess why did you go and you were and got a mind received a mandate from the u.n. to go in and save lives and it would end under the premise that under the pretext or the reality of protecting human rights and that's exactly what happened there and and it wasn't an aggression against georgia so it's a totally different set of analysis totally different analysis or not a lot of people very different layers one fact on this you know it really speaks about a mission creep the whole thing is about a mission creep nine hundred resolution nine hundred seventy three said one thing

and we have something completely different now that is the point jim what do you think about what the for i will probably do is the no fly zone to everyone intervening boots on the ground that's a big difference jim go ahead if if the if the head of the dominant military superpower and. dominant members of nato they call their intention is that the government of that country shoulder change that's the that's the issue and if they do it by violence that has hold you back a sequel to solve the issue that's an issue for. approximately about three to three because we're only a month away from or four months away from let's all try to because it would happen republicans are talking about all the news people want to change but it came out the protests they were massacred they were massacred there's been massacres and. why don't you want to you want a story with way with

a good idea goings on the civilian. then without a layer of the military put out been the massacres. in the sort of trickle of the us across. so you said back in february march where was the massacre you said oh no massacre where were you i'm talking about understood that it could have been crippling massacre's. being massacred in tripoli alone protests were shocked many when he referring this who you are being very very colorful when you really refer to who referred the second we refer to the second week of the year of the protests when they reach tripoli and went over the bridge of holland the security of this thousands of protesters are solid and they were shorter and in areas and push them are areas that i know there is all been through there is that my friends there been people have been massacred and they want to try calling later and so it's a question it was a it's later this intervening is all right gentlemen gentlemen let's not dwell too much on this or omar i'd like to ask you this here because it's have

a broader context you know if we look we're old if we look at the world stage and we want to see would be mourning the death of thousands of thousand more people as we move on to the people in rwanda and i don't want to have the office you don't want to have the only consider well i think you know saying yes go ahead jewish nation has a lot on each count should we go back to cost of zero and we can get a stance ok jim go ahead does god graduate you're saying i'm asked to nasa scientists time he is saying because some people were shot in tripoli although this wasn't publicized i take his word for it some people were shot in tripoli in february some people were shot on that basis nato the mighty the sole power block in the world can then proceed to launch a war of eleven thousand missions including four and a half thousand strike missions because they claim as the resolution pretext on that basis why they cannot nato intervened anywhere in little to any trouble as any government should anybody the threat to kill people and others and the threat to

kill people in by her as it was imminent it was imminent people who were out of ways which are much time i think we're wasting too much time you know mark leaving the last word on margaret's last word of this program go ahead. first of all jim i'm sorry to tell you that you have absolutely no credibility in your argument whatsoever the whole entire world says this on all networks from c.n.n. too as is here at the b.b.c. to some parts a russian t.v. the libyan people deserve to be helped and they were saved to hell and that's that's the bottom line so to say that that you know they too doesn't doesn't have any legal right to go in and help the libyan people from being massacred by the libyan regime just makes absolutely right on that point gentlemen i'm sure we all have the welfare of the libyan people at stake here many thanks my guess would be in london and in los angeles and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r t c n x time and remember crosstalk.

on. it.