holiday in seclusion holiday in this month and a day in the social scale those killed. in the region country club civility sure isn't fun it's peace of the fittest or at least well sure convince the swiss your children let me hold you to let me know it's come golden egg which a coach. called him back here's a recap of the top stories on our t.v. russia gets out of france's weapons of fives and they get the rebels saying of violates the un office of the argo meanwhile the international criminal court has issued arrest warrants for the gadhafi family and then an explosive interview with guards knew the libyan leader's son claims the court is biased. research problem and agrees on how to put into effect a new us terribly packaging something balance in the streets in protest or that the

government is ready to sell agrees assets to the lenders to say stay afloat but many feel it's the people themselves that are put on sale. three men are jail for twenty five years each for taking part in an f.b.i. sting for the fake paucity of synagogues and the like the cross for us all raised about us tactics for fighting homegrown terror. that's peter lavelle and his cross talk guests debate whether the western red of military intervention in libya is getting stuck in the sands of north africa that's coming up next. we'll. bring you the latest in science and signal from the realms of. the future. can.

you welcome across our computer lavelle quagmire and standoff in libya is there a military solution to the conflict in libya could a stable democratic and whole libya be created through the use of force museum change and is there still a realistic possibility of a political solution. to. the ongoing conflict in libya i'm joined by jim brann in london he's the spokesperson for the stop the war coalition also in london we have and his album marty he's a libyan political analyst and in los angeles we cross to omar tora be he is a political analyst and a founding member of the libyan human rights commission all right gentlemen this is

crosstalk that means crosstalk rules in effect and that means you can jam any time you want and i always start this program with the person that had to get up early as far as i'm going to go to you omar in los angeles is there a political solution to the conflict ongoing conflict now in libya because we see why mainstream media says that's not a possibility though we have here european officials saying there is there should be a possibility of a political solution and we have the the international criminal court saying that the his son and a security chief should be indicted for war crimes and that kind of says you shouldn't talk to people like that so i asked my question again is there a political solution to the ongoing conflict quagmire standoff in libya. peter thank you so much for having me on. depends on your definition of what a political solution is. quite simply if he and his family leave libya we want to have any war we want to have any bloodshed we want to

have any killings going on and the libyans will go about their. construction of their democracy and i want to refer your audience to a report that just came out yesterday by the national democratic institute you can find that on my web site on our turby dot org and which actually spells out what the transition period would be and how it would take place to answer your question really yes there is a political solution if he leaves then his kids then we can actually begin to to well mark o'mara there's a moment i can interrupt there's no indication they're going to leave ok so i mean to stop the bloodshed maybe there should be talks and i think certain that question to jim i mean i'll ask the question and can there be a political solution because the current regime shows no interest in leaving the scene it will continue to fight and after the indictments from the international criminal court it looks like we'll continue to fight because there is no way out

now for those people do you think. yes i mean i think i think the quagmire will only get worse you cannot present i think you cannot present the interest of nato as being the interest of the libyan people nato and the nato powers have converted the libyan civil war into something else and that will roll on and i know the fact for example that today the african union summit convenes in. in equitorial guinea and we know that gadhafi won't be there but the question one question might be will shear of sudan be because remember that there was a into low body has ever been indicted by the international criminal court except somebody from africa and the most the highest ranking one is the president of sudan and the african countries are cocking a snoeck at this international criminal court because it is seen to be simply a tool of the western powers and that will roll on so the credibility of it for

example will be shot and the fact that william hague gets up when the international criminal court issued this indictment two days ago and says this only proves our point remember that the statute of the international criminal court is entirely skewed the supreme international crime as it's defined is the crime of aggression and it was the foreign office of legal advisors here in london who to a man and woman said that the iraq war was a crime of aggression and that's simply been left out of the statute otherwise tony blair would be on trial in london for example or in the hague or wherever so it's very much seen as askew there's two mischaracterizations here and there are right i don't know more let me first clearly be the first to discuss that here because i'd just like to maybe go on a little bit further with what to jim had to say here it seems to me now that meet with nato decides it wants three or use military force against a country it uses the international criminal court to is

a political tool but we now it's really turning into a loss here in service of warfare what do you think about that. if you mean. the because of the fact that tony blair and george bush won't voted for war crimes. by extension shouldn't because i thought whether or not these people are and it's the case that the crimes warrants. such as. if verdict being put up on their head and with a very very strong very very strong statement to the rest because in the world but if you do follow such vicious and such horrible crimes against your people but you won't be given or. as easily as you think you may. tony blair or george bush. should be investigated for their crimes in iraq but it doesn't mean by extension

you know that the arab dictators of the world should get away with ten years for ok omar you want to jump in there i mean maybe you see it seems kind of i did you know you should be indicted for war crimes if you kill other people not your own people but if you kill your own people you should be indicted and it seems kind of skewed in itself omar go ahead. what i'm trying to say there is no civil war go on out of libya we're not talking to warring factions with equal amount of weapons the libyan regime decided to kill its own people with its own military machine. innocent civilians that's one too i think bernard. from london is saying there are no people that have been indicted outside of africa the balkan states we have got least one or two people there were indicted and. now you're going to jail and i think the international i think the international criminal court which began operations in two thousand and two specifically the

international criminal court has now and i think five sets of people all of them from africa and nobody else that's just a factual correction ok good omar i mean if you're saying this is the interest civil war then what is it because i guess the obama administration isn't call it a war either he likes to use the term kinetic military action is that what you would call it as well with this kinetic military action. you know i haven't heard that term lately i know that at least to be honest you know but yeah but it's really on national so it was a little bit define it as it is. yeah go ahead well i think i think we're looking over we're looking at a very different perspective i mean you can call it a civil war if you'd like to but i think. you're almost a critic of the two moral equivalence to morally equal swords which is a group of the fact that there's a revolution occurring in libya and it was being suppressed with the most violent means on a you know until the missiles and bullets were fired at civilians and so if you

want to call it a civil war to free to be that ignores the fact on the ground which is that this person or be a civilian population i don't think you know from history. as a civil war feel free to call it what you like ok jim if i can go to you why should nato be in the business of forcefully changing the regime presumably to bring democracy and one has to wonder if it's good to keep the country together is one sovereign state i mean why is that nato mission now. well i think in a way i'm asked police are in it although i think in the wrong way the fact that libya has been singled out in this way the fact that for example our fee has been indicted in the fastest process ever indulged in by the international criminal court and precedented speed whereas no other arab leader and i would single out in this particular context for example the king of bahrain has not been singled out.

but no no has any other headliner in any other arab. i mean aren't all of the bankers here think it's the you're ignoring the very annoying the for the good and here is these are completely different type of force to suppress and whilst we were facing the same force in libya as the barneys you were for the libyan people and were asking for international intervention but when the scenario changed the reality in the fundamentals and the details of the growth were completely different it was a conflict where the civilians are on and the army is on and it calls for intervention it's not the case and by her own please do not try to at all even an issue and it is a very good scenario and this if i could stay with us i could stay with you and it's real quickly i mean i don't think anybody on this program is wants to justify anything that mr gadhafi has done or not done i don't see that happening here in this program however the indictment does seem to legitimize the if not moral morally allow the continued bombing of libya and i think that's the point that jim

is getting at here rather think well you know the government can you can you play through up and do it it's ok i'm sorry little first unless you know we're going to jam go ahead with the pulling of our country i mean you'd be hard pushed for money and the libyans are complaining of. being on them in not bombing anything that you know the libyans themself wouldn't want to go on a low balling joyeuse facilities they're not bombing for the most part i don't find it's a of interest that i would accept that there have been cases where a few civilians have thought it and subsequently civilians dying but all well and fine for a very minute the fact that it's the intention behind it is intervention to try to kill civilians but it's the on the facts it is not for it's not for this for me to entertain or debate so if on the morning the country almost assumes that we're trying to consulates here that's not the case it's not the case it's been a success ok mario mario you know if i referred to you is jim i want go more go ahead you had a point go ahead. say it is and i didn't get that it is

. not has no relationship to nato is increasing its bombing or the start of the bombing or ending the bombing you know it's that this guy committed crimes against the populace civilians and he deserves he pain is crimes from rape of women to bring in mercenaries from outside the country and killing people so this is a no this is the truth of the matter he can you know he conducted himself in this fashion and he deserves to be tried as a matter of fact i would really rather see him tried inside libya and this man this isn't a february seventeenth revolution. are not the only crimes that get that he committed he's been committing crimes in libya since nineteen seventy three i mean there's thousands and thousands of people were killed and tortured in

a lot of them are only going to jump in here gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on libya stay with r.t. . if . it was the fourth quarter. of. this street still keeps up some clips but

now it's time to reveal that the soviet files on. download the official policy allocation to your i phone the i pod touch from the i.q. saps to. life on the go. video on demand parties mind fuel costs an r.s.s. feeds now in the palm of your. question on the potty dot com. keep the story. well the mantra crosstalk i'm curious about to remind you we're talking about regime change in libya. ok.

ok jim i'd like to go to you in london me we just heard omar mentioning about al grapes and other heinous crimes being committed in libya right now but you know i looked in what way mainstream media and you see those reports but then i checked amnesty international human rights watch and they have not been able to determine any credible witnesses to mass rapes in khadafi is libya now there seems to be a very big skewing of lines here between what mainstream media western governments and what reputable human rights groups have to say about what's happening in libya how do you explain that. i think the thing is very simple you cannot possibly take the question of libya or what happened in libya outside of the context of the nato powers interest geopolitical interest it makes no sense whatsoever i think the starting point of any discussion should remain what was agreed in the first half of

the twentieth century and it should stay there the fact that they are shifting the position the fact that they are tearing up agreements in the first half of the twentieth century makes no difference if you abandon that as your starting point then i think you fall into the swamp and it's the very same swamp that was established in the first half of the twentieth century which arrived at the conclusion that you could not use humanitarian pretext for the intervention for the use of force on the world scale that was the issue that was what was agreed in the late one nine hundred forty s. and i think i think that nothing of that has changed and so richard is president of the united states. if you have the answer. peter if you allow me peter if you are i don't want any job and i couldn't distinguish you saying why go ahead you know what. i'm quite disturbed to hear people i mean you're referring to. human rights watch or amnesty international or whatever reporting agencies as far

as rape in libya. you know there has been definite definite rapes in libya at least three hundred fifty reported cases i was just there in libya for three and a half weeks i've seen people in tears families. and. such bad emotional condition because daughters were raped specifically the orders came directly from god that and yes the way you know more than i'm not dismissing it is true or not true but you know media reports and a lot of media coverage of the arab awakening he's been very skewed for very different reasons here and we have plenty of people is also going to you want to justify nato's aggression is well i mean and this if i can go to this if i could go to you i mean do you want to see a libya that is created by nato through aggression through wars designed do you see

it with that how do you sit with that what do you want to. hear. once i can go to employ i mean first and foremost the aggression is low and to the people the people themselves i mean we have to also have the heart of a moral values and you see in the world a question when you will show your moral values but what about international law what about international law international well international law and sovereignty to hell with sovereignty if people are calling and being raped on the land and story by word over and through for a minute these bizarre or ideological sponsors which come at the expense of people when we talk about sovereignty it's because because they're free has the place or some kind of you know mechanic kind of a you know moral if you want to call it what he calls a mano a mano kind of starts in libya and i care about what he thinks of sovereignty i think what people being raped person what we were murdered and the playing international law saying so if you saw him three when you were going to a group being murdered and if we followed the logical conclusion of and the line of

argument of someone like him would be mourning hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths in libya and you want to trust with us a little different has no idea of his track record or his intentions and doesn't and you know for me there was one very very morally dubious crowd here but i was with us but let me go into this like important second point is that if we feel that nato later is aggression as we're going to grow i call it as you know is the defining factor in a good way taken into account something that you know it's completely besides the fact the fact is it's the libyans here the equal power brokers they're the ones i think will grow the other ones are risking their lives they're the ones annoyed in this country in addition they want to and i think we have this years as europeans of people of the world here but i'll call it the twenty first century muscles have aligned ourselves with wholly a moral values and i think we're all this is that spirit just you know if it can be used to ourselves if i go to him here you know international law was created to protect people ok and to avoid these kinds of things ok i mean i'll ask you the

same question i mean can nato intervention i'll take the word aggression out if you want intervention here there could be a mission creep that we've seen over the last few months can now create a viable libya that is sovereign and not dependent upon outside forces like other countries that make up nato particularly united states. but maybe it took longer for the same would you like. to see you do what you employ jim what what you will have in libya if nato succeeds or half exceeds is a nato peace and it will be that kind of conditional peace it will not be a peace arrived by the libyan people because nato will have presented itself a nato nato encompasses something like between seventy five and eighty eighty percent of military spending the three nato powers in charge of this convention are the three biggest military spenders or three of the four because you know it's regarded as a really good there in disarray as it is and you're in surrender in recently as

well is that their military force shall be the decisive factor that is their overriding interest so that they can intervene in the arab spring for example so that the libyan people will not do what the gyptian intonation he's living with his to sort that was an incoherent by then is all you have to. be worse than the america you're not even looking at what you align yourself the whole your moral values here and support people who want freedom you know would you have allowed them to are going to be massacred you would just you know to do this you know you mentioned to people like i'd like to ask amara question i mean is this intervention the international criminal court's indictment is that undermined what the opposition the rebels the rebels are supposed to do because now they do sweep back and say well let nato take care of it for us ok then they also become puppets of an outside force is that wise for you know mr theoretical question it's a fair question omar what do you think about that. you know first of all you know

why are you set why are we saying there nato is intervening or conduct and aggression in libya they have received their mandate by the un resolution nineteen seventy three i mean by that i just remind you let me remind you of an event that took place in two thousand and eight putin of russia went into georgia and tried to save the georgians and the russians that live in georgia i guess why did he go anywhere and got a mandate got and received a mandate from the u.n. to go in and save lives under the very thought under the pretext or the reality of protecting human rights and that's exactly what happened there and and it wasn't an aggression against georgia so it's a totally different kind of analysis totally different analysis on a particular area for one fact on this you know i mean it's a part of the mission the whole things of our mission creep nineteen resolution one

nine hundred seventy three said one thing and we have something completely different now by this point jim what do you think about what's the problem with that and is that a no fly zone to everyone here boots on the ground that's a big difference jim go ahead if if the if the head of the dominant military superpower and. going to members of nato because their intention is that the government of that country schol change that's the that's the issue and if they do it by violence that is also true that if people decide the issue that's an issue for them. please please. please go to the street because we're only a month away from or four months away from a lot more in terms of. republicans or do we all the. people want the trains they came out to protest they were massacred they were massacred there's been massacres and. why don't you want to you want to start with may we must go to libya kuwait

was a massacre illegal. then we saw today almost the minister put it up in a massacre in the south of tripoli the us of course. so he said back in february march where was the massacre you said oh my circle where you know i'm talking about under there have been in tripoli derby massacre's. being massacred in tripoli are known protests were shots many when he referring to you've been very very colorful when you will refer to folks who are referred to as second we refer to the second week of the year of the protests when they reach tripoli and went over the bridge of holland the single greatest thousands of protesters saw it and they were shot at own areas and for sure. there is the i know there is all being too there is that my friends there and people are being massacred and you want to try calling later and so it's a question you will sort of it's later this intervening is all right gentlemen gentlemen let's not dwell too much on this or omar i'd like to ask you this here because it's have a broader context you know if we look we're old if we look at the world through the

interim we're honestly would be mourning the death of thousands of people as removed the people in rwanda i don't have the office well how do you know what i have known you consider well i think leader was saying yes go ahead you say joe has a lot on each conscience to if we go back to closer vote and we can get a stance ok jim go ahead does go to graduate you're saying i'm not a nasa scientists time he is saying because some people were shot in tripoli although this wasn't publicized by take his word for it some people were shot in tripoli in february some people were shot on that basis nato the mighty the sole power block in the world can then proceed to launch a war of eleven thousand missions including four and a half thousand strike missions because it declares the resolution pretext on that basis why he cannot nato intervened anywhere in a little you any time has any government should anybody who threats or kill people in benghazi the throughout to kill people and others it was imminent it was

imminent people who were out of it was in which a large time i think we're wasting too much time you know martin you know last word on margaret's last word of this program go ahead. first of all jim i'm sorry to tell you that you have absolutely no credibility in your argument whatsoever the whole entire world says this on all networks from c.n.n. so as is here at the b.b.c. to some parts a russian t.v. the libyan people deserve to be helped and they were saved helped and that's that's the bottom line so to say that that you know that nato doesn't doesn't have any legal right to go in and help the libyan people from being massacred by the libyan regime just makes absolutely no angel and i'm sure we all have the welfare of the libyan people at stake here many thanks my guess would be in london and in los angeles and make sure if you were watching us here are to see you next time and remember prostitutes. keep.

walking.