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welcome across all time peter lavelle quagmire and standoff in libya is there a military salute. into the conflict in libya and a stable democratic and whole libya be created through the use of force to museum change and is there still a realistic possibility of a political solution. to. the ongoing conflict in libya i'm joined by jim brann in london he's the spokesperson for the stop the war coalition also in london we have and it's al gore marty he's a libyan political analyst and in los angeles we cross to omar torrijos he is a political analyst and a founding member of the libyan human rights commission all right gentlemen this is crosstalk that means crosstalk rules in effect and that means you can jump any time you want and i always start this program with the person that had to get up early

as far as i'm going to go to you omar in los angeles is there a political solution to the conflict ongoing conflict now in libya because we see what mainstream media says that's not a possibility though we hear here european officials saying there is there should be a possibility of a political solution and we have the international criminal court saying that his son and a security chief should be indicted for war crimes and that kind of says you shouldn't talk to people like that so i asked my question again is there a political solution to the ongoing conflict quagmire standoff in libya. peter thank you so much for having me on. it depends on your definition of what a political solution is. quite simply if he and his family leave libya we want to have any war we want to have been bloodshed and we won't have any killings going on and the libyans will go about their. construction

of their democracy and i want to refer your audience to a report that just came out yesterday by the national democratic institute you can find that on my website on my target dot org and which actually spells out what the transition period would be and how it would take place to answer your question really yes there is a political solution that he leaves and his kids then we can actually begin to. omar omar there's a moment i can interrupt there's no indication they're going to leave ok so i mean to stop the bloodshed maybe there should be talks and i'd like to turn that question to jim and me i'll ask the question and can there be a political solution because the current regime shows no interest in leaving the scene it will continue to fight and after the indictments from the international criminal court it looks like we'll continue to fight because there is no way out now for those people do you think. yes i mean i think i think the quagmire will

only get worse you cannot present i think you cannot present the interests of nato as being the interest of the libyan people nato and the nato powers have converted to the libyan civil war into something else and that will roll on and i know the fact for example that today the african union summit convenes in. equitorial guinea and we know that gadhafi won't be there but the question one question might be will shear of sudan be because remember that there was a into nobody has ever been indicted by the international criminal court except somebody from africa and the most the highest ranking one is the president of sudan and the african countries are calling a snoot this international criminal court because it is seen to be simply a tool of the western powers and that will roll on so the credibility of it for example will be shot and the fact that william hague gets up when the international

criminal court issued this indictment two days ago and says this only proves our point remember that the statute of the international criminal court is entirely skewed the supreme international crime as it's defined is the crime of aggression and it was the foreign office legal advisers here in london who to a man and woman said the iraq war with a crime of aggression and that's simply been left out of the statute otherwise tony blair would be on trial in london for example or in the hague or wherever so it's very much seen as askew there's your mischaracterizations here it's there are alright i gave you no more let me first clearly the first fairness and the will to discuss right here is i'd just like bye to maybe go a little bit further with what jim had to say here it seems to me now with me when nato decides it wants three or use military force against a country it uses the international criminal court to it's a political tool we now it's really turning into last year in service of warfare

what do you think about that. if you mean. the because of the fact that tony blair and george bush weren't voted for war crimes. by extension good purpose shouldn't because of the fear of whether or not these people are in both of them it's the case that the crimes warrant. such as. if verdict being put upon their head and with a very very strong very very strong statement to the rest of the ira because in the world but if you do follow such vicious and such horrible crimes against your people you won't be given off. as you think you may that's not this that tony blair and george bush. should be investigated for their crimes in iraq but it doesn't mean by extension you know that the arab dictators of the world to get away

with such heinous crimes ok omar you want to jump in there i mean militancy it seems kind of i did you know you should be indicted for war crimes if you kill other people not your own people but if you kill your own people you should be indicted it seems kind of skewed in itself omar go ahead. what i'm trying to say there is no civil war go on iran libya we're not talking two warring factions with equal amount of weapons the libyan regime decided to kill its own people with its own military machine. innocent civilians that's one too i think. in london is saying there are no people that have been indicted outside of africa the balkan states we have at least one or two people there were indicted and. now you're going to jail and i think the international i think the international criminal court which began operations in two thousand and two specifically the international criminal court has now indicted five sets of people all of them from

africa and nobody else that's just a factual correction ok but on maher i mean you're saying this isn't a civil war then what is it because i guess the obama administration isn't call it a war either he likes to use the term kinetic military action is that what you would call it as well when he's kinetic military action. you know i haven't heard the term neighborhood analysts to be honest with you but it's really imagine what it was it was it was a define it as it is. yeah go ahead well i think i think we're looking we're looking at a very different perspective i mean you can call it a civil war if you'd like to but i think. you're almost equating it to two moral equivalence to morally equal swords which is a group of the fact that there is a revolution occurring in libya and it was being suppressed with the most violent means on or you know until the missiles and bullets were fired at civilians and so

if you want to call it a civil war feel free to but that ignores the fact on the ground which is that this person or being a civilian population i don't think that you know from history. as a civil war you know i feel free to call it what you like ok jim if i can go to you why should nato be in the business of forcefully changing regime presumably to bring democracy and one has to wonder if it's good to keep the country together is one sovereign state i mean why is that nato mission now well i think in a way i'm asked police although i think in the wrong way the fact that libya is being singled out in this way the fact that for example could afy has been indicted in the fastest process ever indulged in by the international criminal court unprecedented speed whereas no other arab leader and i would single out in this particular context for example the king of bahrain has not been singled out.

but no no has any other peddling or any other arab. i mean i don't follow the bankers if you think it's and you're ignoring the very annoying the fact that here is these are completely different type of force to suppress and whilst we were facing the same force in libya as the bahrain is you know for the libyan people not asking for international intervention but when the scenario changed the reality in the fundamentals in the details in the grove were completely different it was a armed conflict that the civilians own and the army was all and it calls for intervention it's not because i'm behind and please do not try to only been an israeli it is a pretty good story that i could stay with you like i can say with you and it's real quickly i mean i don't think anybody on this program is wants to justify anything that mr gadhafi has done or not done i don't see that happening here in this program however the indictment does seem to legitimize the if not moral morally allow the continued bombing of libya and i think that's the point that jim is getting at here but i think we do know for a moment can you can you just wait

a minute nothing to do with each other ok i'm sorry didn't go first unless you know we're going to jim go ahead and the pulling of our country i mean you'd be hard pushed for many libyans complaining of of tolerance of being on them in but on the anything that you know libyans and software don't want to be don't go bowling joyeuse facilities then or bombing for the most part i don't find it's of interest . and there have been cases where a few civilians have thought it and it's the civilians knowing but oh well and thrown for a very minute the fact that it's the intention behind there's intervention to try to kill civilians but it's the only it is not for it's not for the very thing that they know debates so far and calling the country almost seems that we're trying to bomb civilians here that's not the case it's not the case it's going to success ok omar amare i think i referred to you is jim i would go more go ahead you had a point go ahead. one say it is and diving.

is. not has no relationship to nato is increasing its bombing or the start of the bombing or ending the bombing you know if this guy committed crimes against the popular civilians and he deserves he pain is crimes from rape of women to bring in mercenaries from outside the country and killing people so this is you know this is the truth of the matter he can you know he conducted himself in this fashion and he deserves to be tried as a matter of fact i would really rather see him tried inside libya and this man this isn't a february seventeenth revolution that are not the only crimes that get that he committed he's been committed crimes in libya since nineteen seventy three i mean this thousands and thousands of people were killed and and towards heard a lot of them are only going to jump in here gentlemen we're going to go to

a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on libya stay with r.t. . if you want to. bring you the latest in something that stands technology in the realms. of the future. the o.l. up up up up up up oh. oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh.

oh. oh. kick. start. the. welcome back to cross talk i'm curious about two minds you were talking about regime change in libya. egypt.

ok jim i'd like to go to you in london me we just heard omar mentioning about galbraith's and other heinous crimes being committed in libya right now but you know i looked at wayne mainstream media and you see those reports but then i checked and there's the international human rights watch and they have not been able to determine any credible witnesses to mass rapes in khadafi libya now there seems to be a very big skewing of lines here between what mainstream media western governments and what reputable human rights groups have to say about what's happening in libya how do you explain that. i think the thing is very simple you cannot possibly take the question of libya or what happens in libya outside of the context of the nato powers interests geopolitical interests it makes no sense whatsoever i think the starting point of any discussion should remain what was agreed in the first half of

the twentieth century and it should stay there the fact that they are shifting the position the fact that they are tearing up agreements in the first half of the twentieth century makes no difference if you abandon that as your starting point then i think you fall into the swamp and it's the very same swamp that was established in the first half of the twentieth century which arrived at the conclusion that you could not use humanitarian pretext for the intervention for the use of force on the world scale that was the issue that was world with agreed in the late one nine hundred forty s. and i think i think that nothing of that has changed and the region is insurance or in prison or the united states. if you have this and there's a problem peter if you allow me peter if you are already jumping out of me and i couldn't distinguish you saying why go ahead you know what. i'm quite disturbed to hear people i mean you're referring to. human rights watch or amnesty

international or whatever reporting agencies as far as rape in libya. there has been definite definite rapes in libya have at least three hundred fifty reported cases i was just there in libya for three and a half weeks i've seen people in tears families. and. such bad emotional condition because either the daughters were raped specifically the orders came directly from god and yet we have you know more than i'm not dismissing it is true or not true but you know media reports and a lot of media coverage of the arab awakening is been very skewed for very different reasons here and we have plenty of people is also going to you want to justify nato's aggression is well i mean and if i can do it you want to see this probably go to you i mean do you want to see a libya that is created by nato through aggression and through wars because i do

you see it with that how do you sit with that were. really good. there. one second what do you employ i mean first and foremost the aggression there's no end to the people but people and so i mean we have to give also thought about how a moral values and who sees in the world aggression what you know how your moral values know what about international law what about international law international well international law and sovereignty to hold with sovereignty if people are throwing and being raped on the land and story by word over and through for a minute these bizarre ideological sponsors which come at the expense of people when we talk about sovereignty of this because because there are three has the place all some kind of you know no kind of a kind of you know moron if you want to call it what he calls a mano a mano kind of stance in libya well i care about what he thinks of sovereignty and i think more people being very close in what will be murdered i will entertain international law saying sovereignty solvency one group women and children being murdered and if we followed the logical conclusion of and the line of argument of

someone like jim will be mourning hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths in libya anyone across the us a little bit different has no idea of his track record or his intentions and doesn't and you know for me they're walking on a very very morally dubious ground here but i was with us but let me go in for a second point on the second point is that if we feel that nato later is aggression as we're going to roll call it is that you know is the defining factor in a good way taken into account something that you know it's completely besides the fact the fact is it's the libyans here the equal power brokers they're the ones are fighting on the ground little ones are risking their lives they're the ones and molding this country in a vision that they want to and i think we have to sit here as as europeans as people of the world here that have gone into the twenty first century muscles have aligned ourselves with hollywood moral values. that spirit just even if it can be used to ourself if i go to him here you know international law was created to protect people ok and to avoid these kinds of things ok i mean i'll ask you the

same question to me he nato intervention i'll take the word aggression out if you want intervention here the clear mission creep that we've seen over the last few months can now create a viable libya that is sovereign and not dependent upon outside forces like other countries that make up later particularly the united states. then nader took longer to say would you like. to see who did what the u.n. . what what you will have in libya if nato succeeds or half the city is a nato peace and it will be that kind of conditional peace it will not be a peace arrived by the libyan people because nato will present itself a nato nato encompasses something like between seventy five and eighty percent of military spending the three nato powers in charge of this invention are the three biggest military spenders all three of the four go you know it's regarded as a good they're in disarray as it is and you're in surrender in recently as well is

that their military force shall be the decisive factor that is their overriding interest so that they can intervene in the arab spring for example so that the libyan people will not do what the gyptian want an easy and he's a very good wishes to sort them out listen and by then he is all you have to know your mission of being worse than i am to america you know if you look at what you align yourself the whole your moral values and support people who want freedom you know would you allow them to go to be massacred this could cause you know that it is you know you mentioned to people and i'd like i'd like to ask mark question i mean if this intervention the international criminal courts indictments doesn't that undermine what the opposition the rebels rebels are supposed to do because now they do sweep back and say well let nato take care of it for us ok then they also become puppets of an outside force is that wise for a first no that is a theoretical question it's a fair question omar what do you think about that. you know first of all you know

why are you set why are we saying that nato is intervening or conduct and aggression in libya they have received their mandate by the un resolution one nine hundred seventy three i mean by that i just remind you let me remind you of an event that took place in two thousand and eight putin of russia went into georgia and try to save the georgians and the russians that live in georgia i guess what if you go anywhere and got a man began and received a mandate from the un to go in and save lives and it would end under the premise that under the pretext or the reality of protecting human rights and that's exactly what happened there and and it wasn't an aggression against georgia so it's a totally different set of analysis totally different analysis and apply very different they won't work on this you know i mean it's apollo mission creep the whole thing is about a mission creep nine hundred resolution one thousand nine hundred eighty three said

one thing and we have something completely different now by this point jim what do you think about what's the problem with the probably do is the no fly zone to everyone here again boots on the ground that's a big difference jim go ahead if if the if the head of goldman and military superpower and. government and members of nato declare that their intention is that the government of that country shall change that's the that's the issue and if they do it by violence so people are supposed to that if people decide the issue that's an issue for. the folks on both sides or through because we're only a month away from or four months away from it let's not try to enter because it wouldn't happen three four decades ago we were there. but people want to try and make a lot of progress they will not they were massacred with the massacres and. why don't you want to know what a serious way we could really have claimed was

a massacre which are without being moved in with salt away and most of us to put up enormous occurs in the southern tip of the us across. so he said back in february march where was the massacre you said done last week where were you talking about under there have been crippling massacre's. being massacred in tripoli are known protest rights or were short of money when he referring to sue you've been very very powerful when you who you referred to who were referred to the second group referred to the second week of the year of the protests when they reach tripoli and went over the bridge of holland to think of this thousands of protests was solid and they were shorter and in areas and push them are areas that i know there is oil being two areas that my friends the been people have been massacred and you want to try to call them later and so it's a question you will sort of it's later this intervening is all right gentlemen gentlemen let's not trouble too much on this or omar i'd like to ask you this here because it's have a broader context you know if we look we are old if we look at the world we want to

see would be mourning the death of thousands of the more people as we move on and people in rwanda i don't have the work office well but you know what i have known you consider well i think you know saying yes go ahead you say joe has a lot on each client should we go back to constable and we can get a stance ok jim go ahead does graduate you're saying i'm asked are nasa scientists time he is saying because some people were shot in tripoli although this wasn't publicized by take his word for it some people were shot in tripoli in february some people were shot on that basis nato the mighty the sole power block in the world can then proceed to launch a war of eleven thousand missions including four and a half thousand strike missions because it declares the resolution all not bases why cannot nato intervened anywhere in a little thing any time has any government anybody who threats or kill people and others a threat to kill people and others it was imminent it was imminent people who were

out of burglaries which i watched time and they were wasting too much time i don't mind even the last word on margaret's last word of this program go ahead. first of all jim i'm sorry to tell you that you have absolutely no credibility in your argument whatsoever the whole entire world says this on all networks from c.n.n. and to as a zero to b.b.c. to some parts of russian t.v. the libyan people deserve to be helped and they were saved helped and that's that's the bottom line so to say that that you know that nato doesn't doesn't have any legal right to go in and help the libyan people from being massacred by the libyan regime just makes absolutely right on that knowing general and i'm sure we all have the welfare of the libyan people at stake here many thanks my guest today in london and in los angeles and thanks or if you wish for watching us here are to see you next time and remember prostate. cancer.

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