welcome back a summary now of our top stories in the weekly jasiek. the view release of the twelve billion euro drunk should read from last year's bailout packages that scene and imminence greek default there was violence on the streets during the week and a response to the austerity plan to dispute the deal. also hundreds of thousands of public sector workers take part in a one day national strike across the u.k. other government council wants to slash that pensions and other benefits. such

as stomach turns material destined for the gods are demanding answers is explaining why they are that convoy has been banned from leaving greek food something while the understanding that a certain saffron's on the delivery date to the enclave on the kind of main it's. only been the if the lines of nature steps up and strikes in morning that before any place any time to find colonel gadhafi is threatening to retaliate against europe and that's the line stop its campaign. and as the headlines up next hour debate try to cross talk with peter allen his guests discussing the kurdish question in iraq that the u.s. and other western allies are reducing their presence in that country. and you can. still. welcome the cross talk i'm peter lavelle as the u.s.

starts its military withdrawal from iraq what does faith hold for the kurds is posting beige in iraq administratively and democratically strong enough to keep the country intact and if the kurds strive towards an independent state what is stopping. you. to cross talk the fate of the kurds i'm joined by fresh was faisal law in washington he's an independent journalist in new york we cross to brendan o'leary he is the louder a professor of political science at the university of pennsylvania and his most recent book is how to get out of iraq with the integrity and in london we have sami ramadani he's a senior lecturer in sociology at london metropolitan university all right gentlemen this is crosstalk that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first let's take a look at a report about the future facing the kurds following the u.s. withdrawal from iraq. eight years after the u.s.

led invasion of iraq washington is negotiating its withdrawal from this war torn country it's forty six thousand u.s. troops prepare to leave iraq its tutorial integrity and fragile democracy are threatened by the brewing animosity between arabs and kurds a factor that has made questionable the plan of a complete pullout i believe that we should take whatever steps are necessary to make sure that we protect whatever progress we have made their. clergy marginalized by iraqi arabs the kurdish minority has long since been vying for a form of independence which given the sweep of the arab spring could now be more possible than ever and if established a kurdish state could potentially entailed the breakup of iraq as well as changing the border of neighboring syria turkey and iran all home to significant kurdish minorities and no other place in iraq symbolizes the tension separating baghdad and kurdish leaders more than the province of cricket source of some twenty percent of iraq's oil reserves who has no official legal status iraqi arabs turkmens and kurds

have only claims to it under article one of the iraqi constitution the dispute over who is supposed to be resolved with a referendum we saw no reason why there should be any more. implementation of article one for. i think when that happens even those other nationalities living in those areas would have a better chance. having a better security than those areas so because now it's like a great area no one has full responsibility of doing what has passed for the people however the vote has been continuously delayed due to political discord and violence in the region and to date neither arab nor kurdish leaders have been willing to yield their rights to the land currently an entire us division is deployed to enforce security in the disputed region and come december thirty first the. u.s. withdrawal could trigger

a bloody conflict. in terms of security when the us leaves there will be no independent security force right now the security is from the kurdish side of the city this is the truth when the us leaves things will get worse there will be conflict arabs will stand up and pray to say with certainty and this will cause the violence. but wars will begin this week at the group. thank you very much whether or not washington decides to leave behind a contingent of u.s. troops in iraq the kurds have a historic opportunity and they drive towards something terminal and nothing in their history suggests that they will be deterred from pursuing a bid for statehood. for crosstalk. ok she wasn't in washington if i can go to you first here as we discerned that report given the circumstances of the withdrawal of the american withdrawal from iraq and what we call the arab spring here what is stopping the kurds from really

going for an independent state something that they have strived for for a very long time now and the circumstances to do that are probably better now than ever before what's stopping them. thank you for giving the opportunity to be on show i think there are an array of reasons that starts the kurds from declaring an independent states economic and political geopolitical and and it's not there's not one single reason that says this is the one please and i think the invasion has helped the kurds have a better. foot step in the political spectrum of the middle east however it hasn't evolved into something that could be the seeds of a state and let's not forget that. the home there inside of the kurdistan region

is not yet suitable and ready for its statehood there is an aspiration there is hope and work towards. all the political pragmatists the leaders know that. declaring a state right now is not the ultimate. so lucian to the case that's right clinching to that's why they're. the most active negotiators you can separate issues that. are infesting baghdad in terms of political process and formation and security so the kurds for now are considering themselves part of iraq but not for long let's let's speak after the withdrawal of the of the us forces when and if i can go to you i mean there's a nice saying the appetite comes with the eating and once the americans do leave to what degree i mean they're keeping something on the ground most likely it respected

white people white house says or the pentagon says but i mean there's a historic moment right here and we all know that iraq is in political deadlock right now the kurds are king makers and if this goes on for much longer the kurds will say you know go ahead guys i mean you figured out we've got oil we have we have unity for the most part in the lands of the kurds i mean they have a lot of cards to play right now and i'd like to throw in they the arab spring in the background about self-determination and and creating a better civil society there could they have a lot going for them. the kurdistan regional government is a very secure region it's the best organized part of iraq and it's very important to understand that the kurdish leadership is not planning a bid for independence even if it gets excellent opportunities and that's because kurds know historically that if they seek independence that will invite the negative intervention of the neighboring powers in particular turkey and iran by contrast at this moment the kurds have the ability to reshape iraq way more or less

designed its constitution in conjunction with its with shiite partners so they have every opportunity to make their influence felt indeed with the departure of the americans they will be only part of iraq that is reliably pro-american so i would expect them to use their leverage to ensure that there will be american troops patrolling the disputed territories they'll be working hard to ensure that their recent successful they taunt with the government of turkey continues and they continue to attract inward investment if the kurds were to take the risk of going for independence that might damage all of the successful inward investment they've made it would also mean that they'd have to devote almost the entirety of their resources to military needs and there they don't want to do that they've come a long way in the last decade they don't want to lose the gains of that last decade family of angry we heard the word leverage and i think that's probably the most important word when we look at the withdrawal of american troops i mean how much

can the kurds get from baghdad ok i mean we meet everyone's watching each other across the. the so-called border where heard the kurdish lands been relatively quiet to see considering the violence since two thousand and three what can they get from baghdad and how resistance is bad baghdad going to be and when giving anything. well you say baghdad i mean the iraqi president is kurdish. representatives of the two leading care dish. governing party's leading polls including the foreign minister and so on so they have pretty substantial influence and baghdad and generally iraqi policies the major ones have been decided with the consent or support of the kurdish leadership of the tea party or to communion of kurdistan and the k.d.t. the kurdistan democratic party. at this point i would like to take issue with one

or two of the premises both an introduction and maybe clean what brendan are saying as if there is a kind of i knew more city or a big historical clash between the kurdish people and our people i think this is a myth we've had to oppressive regimes like saddam's regime attacking the care dish people but that hasn't been this historic a people against people real tensions or quarters or fights historically in iraq in fact very people a very few people seem to know that there are about ten million kurdish people in baghdad the capital this is more than more cares than cares in any kurdish area that is that is true. i would say i think i think you is not some of the no no it's not nonsense to me because the kurdish people i work to carry digital advice and the cards i know i know you would like you would like to divide the iraqi

people like you're attempting just now but if you let me finish a lot of care dish people are entitled met it with our arabs with total commands and so on and there isn't this rigid ethnic demarkation like you might want to pretend brendan historically have occurred to shun arab people. have common interests join struggles against colonial longing for democracy for freedom so so you have the same time to look at this sami at the same time of the aspirations of the kurds have been always slowed down if not punished when they do have aspirations brenden you want to reply to that go ahead. i certainly do i think it's it is true that kurds and arabs contain large numbers of people willing to make iraq work as a federation but it is absolute nonsense to deny the historical animosities between arabs and kurds and to deny that successive arab regimes carried out genocide as an

expulsion and coercive assimilation against large deny those of. the other reasons as well and get the idea you are saying that if you mention your past i know it's no good you might not do that i'd actually i let you speak i'd like you to get i'd like you to give me the opportunity to start it is a myth the kurds they like it isn't it i'm not distorting what you said i listened carefully. people think that sat down to reveal that there was a large x. will you let me finish will you that we let me finish please people think wrongly that there's a large kurdish population in baghdad there used to be to fail the kurds were expelled from baghdad by saddam's regime if we look at a vote in our kurdish parties in the end in federal elections it is a minuscule vote it's surprising i'm afraid i'm going to be in iraq to almost surely surely come back from the break after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the current state with r.t. .

if you can. i'm spending the year interact as military journalist i just saw the waste go in the u.s. contractors there's kind of wasting their time trying to get kills three. zero am. or am. i thought oh lost the link to the stuff to see about my family my friends a huge steamboat twenty seven days in mutants and publicising people invited the monkeys inside the police space these people started the face of a dialogue says just slowly changing the slogan or a way to dismiss him since. i am.

sick. to me. just see. it. seemed see the fish and slugs the for me. and you can. still.

welcome back to rostock on people about to remind you we're talking about the fate of the kurds as the u.s. plans its withdrawal from iraq. the first story. ok brennan that you know i'd like you to finish up what you were saying before the break here i mean there has been historically a lot of animosity and i'd like you know my degree or another we can discuss in this program go right ahead. well what i think is important is to look forward and there are two core difficulties in relations between arabs and kurds as we go forward the first is that many arab politicians in baghdad wish to recentre lies iraq in particular the control over natural resources and that's in flat contradiction with the constitution of iraq of two thousand and five which was deliberately designed to ensure that each part of iraq our provinces as well as

kurdish majority areas could govern themselves and develop themselves if that program of the constitution is implemented i think all of the historical animosities between kurds and arabs can become the second difficulty arises as as was indicated in your program in the areas of the disputed territories now those territories are disputed precisely because of past programs of ethnic expulsion carried out largely by saddam's regime but also by previous arab governments not everything done bad by arabs historically was done by saddam or those who were involved as well so the key thing that international policy makers and from mastic iraqi citizens have to be focused on is how to ensure those two particular disputes over natural resources and over it is future territories don't generate further conflict between kurds and arabs and i think that can. be done if history is to follow the constitution jump a way to fold them and situation is not only to not only not only to implement

article one forty but to encourage proper power sharing arrangements we think or could govern it sharing arrangements that would include an arabs under the christian minorities all share power in this particular area all right sami real quick and then we'll be watching him go ahead sure sure i think trend brendan again is peddling this dish animosity there is no animosity between the kurdish and out of people that we've had to present regimes specialist. by the way like you brendan this regime killed more arabs than kurds. audio information and the nine hundred ninety one uprising and in chemical weapons and so on he's killed more arabs than kerry so to pretend that this was an out of book government just killing kurds is absolutely historically incorrect and that applies to all he's a sitting president president any of the gallery done was denied that freedom was denied this season was designed to be and i. mean here let me just say here let's

go to washington go ahead throw in your two cents you're going to be very patient. i think i think it's not over inflated to mention the name our city among kurds and arabs and has occurred as i have lived in kurdistan during the invasion i have covered the invasion i have sensed those things myself it is a historical. even if you don't want to call it only massive disagreement at this liking. least from the kurds towards the arabs and of course it's shared by the arabs in a great deal. they both know the kurds and the arabs both know that they are forced to live in iraq the arabs claim that iraq is the us it's a member of the arab league the kurds believe every individual of them believe that they are forced to be part of that country and bad has created it he must be and

it's very naive and simple to assume that just because regime like saddam's regime or any previous regimes have have have. caused destruction and killing of the kurds there is not in the minds of the public . give. it does not release the general arab population of iraq from those acts to people do not think that the those regimes were. abstract entities that came from the sky and did those i mean most people do believe that these things way and that iris ok let's let's let's move forward to the end of this year brandon i'd like to go to you here and show you see that there are elements of that within the pentagon and maybe even the white house and in baghdad they would use the excuse of possible tension between arabs and kurds to maine maintain a an american presence

a larger presence than what the americans agreed to a few years ago me we can't leave now because we'll be a civil war. i think it won't be an excuse i think there will be a strong request from the government of the kurdistan region together with some responsible arab politicians in baghdad for there to be a continuing arab and sorry a continuing american presence mediating between the arab majority army in the south and the forces of the kurdish peshmerga in the north and i think that that will be essential to ensure that there is a stable resolution of the disputed territories if there's an american in a responsible american departure without the issue of the disputed territories having been resolved then there's a high likelihood of renewed conflict even if there's responsible leadership on each side because actions on the ground in particular the actions of sunni arab insurgents might be stabilized matters so there's a real risk and it won't be an excuse the americans will be absolutely delighted to

get completely out of iraq but barack obama would like it because it will look good through his election campaign so the so the idea that the americans are maneuvering in order to stay in iraq is simply misplaced. do you think i sleep there is a serious some dispute ahead. return to washington is. i think i think the the. leaving of of the americans and keeping some forces in there to to hold to put a put a stop to a civil war will not repeat the same scenario of u.s. troops remaining in korea up to this day there's no there's not going to be an end to this. could this bomb to explode this this disputed territories the article one hundred forty of the constitution has been not being implemented yet those territories have not been issues the disagreements on those issues have not been

resolved yet will only be delayed but not solved unless the. this article is implemented those territories will be returned to people who own the the ownership there is no claim of those things and these things have not been happening due to political disagreement in baghdad and the arabs do not want this because they already have gained territory very very clear things that we know that are done during saddam's time that can be resolved for example the town of those who are mad to which is a major kurdish town has been detached from kirkuk and ecstatically it which is a matter of those who are having problems which is a majority harrop province and these these shiftings and planes that saddam did have created those issues that need to be resolved because if cook is returned to

the nine hundred fifty eight demography of whatever. unit of cook province at the time was things will change there wouldn't be a majority arab in the province as it is now and therefore things will change unfettered for around them is held in the province of another a totally different i got to sami sami what business what business does the united states and its allies have in mediating this conflict between the kurds or potential conflict when you put it that way between the kurds and the arabs in iraq i mean is it is time for the united states and its allies to get out and let the people on the ground figure out what is best for them because our q patient. genders animosity we've seen that in iraq we've seen that in afghanistan we're seeing it possibly in libya. i think you've hit the nail on the head there most of iraq's problems today i mean eighteen from the continued occupation of iraq and the sooner the u.s.

led forces leave the better with the tens of thousands of mercenaries of blackwater and the like they brought with them they are the poison of in the middle of iraqi society and i think a lot of these problems can be resolved and i don't share the opinions of your other two guests with due respect to them that there is this enormous animosity between the arab people of iraq and the kurdish people and let me add this at this particular moment the clear high principled stand towards a kurdish people the kurdish people deserve the right to self-determination and this i believe in very very strongly this right to self there are the terminations cannot come under occupation it can only come within a democratic iraq where they care to people will enjoy their right to self-determination this is something not even the kurdish leaders are daring. to pronounce and to implement because that listening to washington that throwing all

their eggs into the putting all their eggs in the washington basket instead of building. good relations with the peoples of the region with the people of turkey people of iran people of iraq against repressive regimes the future of the kurdish people is with the peoples of the region you cannot move to the mountains that creates mountains of color to stand to washington with people of the region have to resolve their own problems without occupations of military interventions the united states is applying notice pressure on the iraqi government to maintain their forces by didn't meet their visit american generals made statements u.s. defense secretary made a visit there are all trying to hide behind this week iraqi. the regime tied to washington protected by washington they're trying to hide behind it and say ask us to stay us because to say this is what's up i think. they're missing. in the last

word this program here we've heard the term the arab spring is there such a thing as the kurds spring there was a kurdish. there there is an arab spring and it's a very welcome there has been already a kurdish spring there is no occupation of the kurdistan region there are no american american soldiers present there and the american presence and israeli settlers trail shouldn't stand by because it's about regional government there is there is corruption throughout our of iraq on a much greater scale than the kurdistan region i think what you've heard me unfortunately is old fashioned arab nationalists propaganda and what is vital to understand is that iraq has just gone through an absolutely terrific interest arab civil war that was not primarily caused by the american occupation it was cause i believe this is just journalism in a very recent discussions with a certain amount of time for many things so my guess would be in new york and

washington and london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember. ok. if you want to.