sure is that so much of it is a huge decision by the way as we will start this military withdrawal from what is faith hold for the kurds and if it hurts try forge an independent state what is. your. these are the top stories germany agrees to supply nato forces in libya with more of munitions as the alliance runs short of weapons forwards including air strikes the country has drawn criticism for deviating from its original position on his ranch and its like relation it's been pressured by other alliance members. meanwhile the wants cooperation with moscow mining taking to a new level as discussions of the common missile to fan system in europe are dominating the russian nato summit the alliance had anders fogh rasmussen is in the russian city of sochi for tots. and plans to boycott monday's u.n.

war crimes hearing where he faces charges of genocide the former bosnian serb army chief says he wouldn't appear in the courtroom until he's allowed to take his own team of lawyers. over the top stories here in our team x. and cross stop you know about and his guest discuss what the u.s. withdrawal from iraq might mean for the kurdish community there and whether fears of separatism and ethnic clashes my persuade the americans to stay. can still. welcome the cross car crime peter lavelle as the u.s. starts its military withdrawal from iraq what does faith hold for the kurds is posting beige an iraqi administratively in democratically strong enough to keep the

country intact and if they've heard strive towards an independent state what is stopping. you can. still. get cross-talk the fate of the kurds i'm joined by passion was faisal law in washington he's an independent journalist in new york we cross to brendan o'leary he is the louder professor of political science at the university of pennsylvania and his most recent book is how to get out of iraq with the integrity and in london we have sami ramadani he's a senior lecturer in sociology at london metropolitan university all right gentlemen this is cross talk that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first let's take a look at a report about the future facing the kurds following the u.s. withdrawal from iraq. eight years after the u.s. led invasion of iraq washington is negotiating its withdrawal from this one torn country as forty six thousand u.s. troops prepare to leave iraq as soon tauriel integrity and fragile democracy are

threatened by the brewing animosity between arabs and kurds a factor that has made questionable the plan of a complete pullout i believe that we should take whatever steps are necessary to make sure that we protect whatever progress we have made their. marching marginalized iraqi arabs the kurdish minority has long since been vying for a form of independence which given the sweep of the arab spring could now be more possible than ever and if established kurdish state could potentially entailed the breakup of iraq as well as changing the border of neighboring syria turkey and iran all home to significant kurdish minorities and no other place in iraq symbolizes the tension separating baghdad and kurdish leaders more than the province of kirk a source of some twenty percent of iraq's oil reserves has no official legal status iraqi arabs turkmens and kurds who will lead claims to it under article one forty of the iraqi constitution the dispute over who is supposed to be resolved with

a referendum we saw no reason why there should be any more. implementation of article one fourth. i think when that happens even those other nationalities living in those areas would have a better chance of. having a better security in those areas so because now it's like a gray area no one has full responsibility of doing what is best for the people however the wood has been continuously delayed due to political discord and violence in the region and today it never aired there kurdish leaders have been willing to yield their rights to the land currently an entire us division is deployed to force security in the disputed region and come december thirty first the. u.s. withdrawal could trigger a bloody conflict. in terms of security when the us leaves there will be no independent security force right now the security is from the kurdish side of the

city this is the truth when the us leaves things will get worse there will be conflicts and arabs will stand. and this will. hurt but wars will begin to. you know thank you very much whether or not washington decides to leave behind a contingent of u.s. troops in iraq the kurds have a historic opportunity in their trials towards some term and nothing in their history suggests that they will be deterred from pursuing a big state. ok pace wasn't in washington if i can go to you first here as we discerned that report i've given the circumstances of the withdraw all the american withdrawal from iraq and what we call the arab spring here what is stopping the kurds from really going for an independent state something that they have strived for for a very long time now and the circumstances to do that are probably better now than

ever before what's stopping them. thank you for giving the approach and you can be on the show i think there are an array of reasons that starts the purge from declaring independence states economic and political geopolitical and and there's not there's not one single reason that says this is the one please and i think the invasion has how to kurds have a better. foot step in the political spectrum of the middle east however it hasn't evolved into something that could be the seeds of a state and let's not forget that. the home plate inside of the kurdistan region is not yet suitable and ready for its statehood there is a separation there is hope there is one and work towards it. all the political

pragmatists the leaders know that. declaring a state right now he's not the ultimate. solution to the case that's why they're clinching for baghdad that's why they're. the most active negotiators and settling issues that are. infesting baghdad in terms of political process and formation and security so the kurds for now are considering themselves part of iraq but look let's let's beat after the withdrawal of the of the u.s. forces going in if i can go to you i mean there's a nice saying the appetite comes with eating and once the americans do leave to what degree i mean the keeping something on the ground most likely a respected white people white house says of the pentagon says but i mean there's a historic moment right here and we all know that iraq is in political deadlock right now the kurds are kingmakers and if this goes on for much longer the kurds

will say you know go ahead guys i mean you figured out we've got oil we have we have unity for the most part in and the lands of the kurds i mean they have a lot of cards to play right now and i'd like to throw in the arab spring in the background about self-determination and and creating a better civil society there because they have a lot going for them go ahead. the kurdistan regional government is a very secure region it's the best organized part of iraq and it's very important to understand that the kurdish leadership is not planning a bid for independence even if it gets excellent opportunities and that's because kurds know historically that if they seek independence that will invite the negative intervention of the neighboring powers in particular turkey and iran by contrast at this moment the kurds have the ability to reshape iraq they more or less designed its constitution in conjunction with its partners so they have every opportunity to make their influence felt indeed with the departure of the americans

they will be only a part of iraq that is reliably pro-american so i would expect them to use their leverage to ensure that there will be american troops patrolling the disputed territories they'll be working hard to ensure that their recent successful detente with the government of turkey continues and they continue to attract inward investment if the kurds were to take the risk of going for independence that might damage all of the successful inward investment they've made it would also mean that they'd have to devote almost the entirety of their resources to military needs and they are they don't want to do that they've come a long way in the last decade they don't want to lose the gains of that last decade sam if i can go to you we heard the word leverage and i think that's probably the most important word when we look at it we drove american troops i mean how much can the kurds get from baghdad ok i mean we meet everyone's watching each other across the the the question so-called border where the kurds the kurdish lands been

relatively quiet kids and considering the violence since two thousand and three what can they get from baghdad and how resistance is bad baghdad going to be and when giving anything. when you say baghdad i mean the iraqi president this care dish. representatives of the two leading care dish. governing parties leading poles think looting the foreign minister and so on so they have pretty substantial influence in n. baghdad and generally iraqi policies the major ones have been decided with the consent or support of the kurdish leadership probably by three it took union of kurdistan and the kady p. the kurdistan democratic party at this point i would like to take issue with one or two of the premises is both an introduction and maybe politically in what brendan are saying as if there is

a kind of i knew more city or big historical clash between the kurdish people under our people and i think this is a myth we've had to oppressive regimes like saddam's regime attacking the kurdish people but there hasn't been this historic people against people intentions or quarters or fights historically in iraq in fact the very people a very few people seem to know that there are about ten million kurdish people impacted they capital this is more than more cares than cares in any kurdish area that is that is true. i would say i think i think you it is known some of the no no i think is not nonsense to me because the kurdish people are where the carrot usually pull advice and the coyotes i know are i know you would like you would like to divide the iraqi people like you're attempting just now but if you let me finish a lot of kurdish people out entitlement it with arabs with total commands and so on

and there isn't this rigid ethnic demarcation like a you might want to pretend brendan historically the kurdish an arab people. have a common interests join struggles against colonial longing for democracy for freedom so so you. the same time to look this is me but the same time the aspirations of the kurds have been always slowed down if not punished when they do have aspirations brendan you want to reply to that go ahead i certainly do i think it's it is true that kurds and arabs contain large numbers of people willing to make iraq work as a federation but it is absolute nonsense to deny the historical animosities between arabs and kurds and to deny that successive arab regimes carried out genocide as an expulsion and coercive assimilation against large denied hours of. the recent south well and yet. you mention the past no united not in that i'd actually i let you

speak i'd like you to get i'd like you to give me the opportunity or the time to start it is a myth don't discourage the lies it is and i'm not distorting what you said i listened carefully. people think that sat down to reveal her heritage it was a large we let me finish will you let me finish please people think wrongly that there's a large kurdish population in baghdad there used to be the faily kurds were expelled from baghdad by saddam's regime if we look at the vote now kurdish parties in and in federal elections because it is a minuscule goat soprano i'm afraid i'm going to be in iraq she'll let you finish and we come back from the break in this after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the purchase with r.t. . if you can.

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ok brennan that you know i'd like you to finish up what you were saying before the break i mean there has been historically a lot of animosity like you know what degree or another we can discuss in this program go right ahead. well what i think is important is to look forward and there are two core difficulties in relations between arabs and kurds as we go forward the first is that many arab politicians in baghdad wish to recentre lies iraq in particular the control over natural resources and that's in flat contradiction with the constitution of iraq of two thousand and five which was deliberately designed to ensure that each part of iraq our provinces as well as kurdish majority areas could govern themselves and develop themselves if that program of the constitution is implemented i think all of the historical animosities between kurds and arabs can become the second difficulty arises as as was indicated in your program in the

areas of the disputed territories now those territories are disputed precisely because of past programs of ethnic expulsion carried out largely by saddam's regime but also by previous arab governments not everything done bad by arabs historically was done by saddam or those who were involved as well so the key thing that international policy makers and to mastic iraqi citizens have to be focused on is how to ensure those two particular disputes over natural resources and over the disputed territories don't generate further conflict between kurds and arabs i think that can. be done because he has to it has to follow the concentration camp a way to call them and says what it is not only to not only not only to implement article one forty but to encourage proper power sharing arrangements with encourage government power sharing arrangements that would include going arabs and kurds in the christian minorities all share power in this particular area all right sami real quick and then we'll get reaction in go ahead sure sure i think brendan again

is pledging this arab cared to show animosity better is no animosity between the care to show now to people that we've had their oppressive regimes specialist. by the way led to brendan's this regime killed more arabs than kurds. information and the nine hundred ninety one uprising and in the chemical weapons and so on he says killed more arabs than kerry so to pretend that this was an arab book government just killing kurds is absolutely historically in court and that applies to all is a simple as a sitting president years ago freedom was denied us freedom was denied this freedom was designed i don't know all the other gentlemen here let me just say here let's go to washington go ahead throw in your two cents you're going to be very patient. i think i think it's not over inflated to mention the name our city among kurds and

arabs has occurred as i have lived in kurdistan during the invasion i have covered the invasion i have sensed those things myself it is a historical. even if you don't want to call it anymore disagreement at this liking . at least from the kurds towards the arabs and of course it's shared by the arabs in a great deal. but they both know the kurds and the arabs both know that they are forced to live in iraq the arabs claim that iraq is the us it's a member of the arab league the kurds believe every individual of number leave that they are forced to be a part of that country and that has created any mass and it's naive and simple to assume that just because regime like saddam's regime or any previous regimes have have have. caused destruction and

killing of the kurds there is not in the minds of the public. give. does not release the general arab population of iraq from those acts to people do not think that the those regimes were. abstract entities that came from the sky and . will do believe. that the let's let's let's move forward today to the end of this year brandon i like to go to you here so you see that there are elements of that within the pentagon and maybe even the white house and in baghdad there would use the excuse of possible tension between arabs and kurds to maintain a an american presence a larger presence than what the americans agreed to a few years ago i mean we will we can't leave now because will be a civil war. i think it won't be an excuse i think there will be a strong request from the government of the kurdistan region together with some

responsible arab politicians in baghdad for there to be a continuing arab and sari a continuing american presence mediating between the arab majority army in the south and the forces of the kurdish peshmerga in the north and i think that that will be essential to ensure that there's a stable resolution of the disputed territories if there's an american in a responsible american departure without the issue of the disputed territories having been resolved then there's a high likelihood of renewed conflict even if there's responsible leadership on each side because actions on the ground in particular the actions of sunni arab insurgents might destabilize matters so there's a real risk and it going to be an excuse the americans would be absolutely delighted to get completely out of iraq barack obama would be like it because it looked good for his election campaign so the idea that the americans are maneuvering in order to stay in iraq will simply misplaced there are two things i see there is

a serious artist peter had. to go to washington here. i think i think the. the leaving of the americans and keeping some forces in there to to to hold people to put a stop to a civil war will repeat the same scenario of u.s. troops remaining in korea up to this day there's no there's not going to be an end to this. and this bomb to explode this this disputed territories the article one hundred forty of the constitution having not been implemented those territories have not issues to their disagreements on those issues have not been resolved yet will only be the lady but not soiled unless. those are this article is implemented those territories will be returned to people who own the ownership girl is no claim

of those things and these things have not been happening due to political disagreement in baghdad and the arabs do not want this because they already have gained territory that there is very very clear things that we know that. during saddam's time there can be results for example the town of those who are my poor which is a major kurdish town has been he cast from kirkuk and next to to create which is a majority in province which is a majority arab province these these shiftings and playing down do have created those issues that need to be resolved because if cook is returned to the nine hundred fifty eight the margraf here with whatever. admission of unit of cocoa province at the time was things will change there wouldn't be a majority arab in the province as it is now and there therefore things will change

if the referendum is held in is that. different and i'm going to sami sami what business what business does the united states and its allies have in mediating this conflict between the kurds or potential conflict if you put it that way between the kurds and the arabs in iraq i mean is it is time for the united states and its allies to get out in lead to people on the ground figure out what is best for them because our q patient. genders animosity we've seen that in iraq we've seen it in afghanistan we're seeing it possibly in libya. i think the nail on the head there most of iraq's problems today i'm an eighteen from the continued occupation of iraq and the sooner the u.s. led forces leave by terror with the tens of thousands of mercenaries of blackwater and the like they brought with them they are the poison of in the middle of iraqi society and i think a lot of these problems can be resolved and i don't share the opinions of your

other guests with respect to them that there is this enormous animosity between the arab people of iraq and the kurdish people and let me out of this at this particular moment declare my principle stand towards the kurdish people the care dish people deserve the right to self-determination and this i believe in very very strongly this right to self dinner determination cannot come under occupation it can only come within a democratic iraq where they care dish people will enjoy their right to self-determination this is something not even the kurdish leaders are daring to pronounce and to implement because they are listening to washington that throwing all their eggs into the putting all their eggs in the washington basket instead of building. good relations with the peoples of the region with the people of turkey people of iran people of iraq against repressive regimes the future of the kurdish

people is with the peoples of the region you cannot move to the mountains the great mountains of code to stand to washington the people of the region have to resolve their own problems without occupations of military interventions the united states is applying enormous pressure on the iraqi government to maintain their forces by been made to visit american generals made statements here as defense secretary make a visit they are all trying to hide behind this week iraqi. regime tied to washington protected by washington they're tried to hide behind it and say ask us to stay i'll just say this is what's up guys they're going to bring. their listeners. in the last word this program here we've heard the term the arab spring is there such a thing as the kurds train there was a kind of there is no. there there is an arab

spring and it's a very welcome there has been already a kurdish spring there is no occupation of the kurdistan region there are no american erik and soldiers present there and the american presence and iraqis i was thrilled shouldn't stand by because it's about a regional government there is there is corruption throughout out of iraq on a much greater scale than the kurdistan region i think what are you crazy sammy unfortunately is old fashioned arab nationalists propaganda and what is vital to understand is that iraq has just gone through an absolutely terrific entrap arab civil war that was not primarily caused by the american occupation it was cause i mean the limitations of journalism in a very serious crisis with a certain amount of time for me thanks and my guest today in new york in washington and london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember.

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