market. can find out what's really happening to the global economy for a no holds barred look at the global financial headlines to cause a report on r t. it's now at three thirty pm on monday here in moscow we see the headlines now nato is cooperation with moscow might be heading to a new level as the alliance is chief points to progress on the issue of a common missile defense system in europe shield has become the focus of the bush talks with russia in the city of sochi. meanwhile germany agrees to supply nato forces in libya with warning missions as the alliance runs short of weapons for its increasing gas strikes but the country has drawn

a criticism for deviating from its original position on intervention and made it speculation as we pressure. plus the rest of it she was removed from the un of war crimes court for disrupting the proceedings not long after his appearance at the very hearing he had earlier threatens a boy called the former bosnian serb journalism facing genocide charges but refused to enter a plea to the judge to enter a not guilty on his behalf. well next in cross talk people of elena's gus discuss what the u.s. withdrawal from iraq might mean for the kurdish community and whether fears of separatism and ethnic clashes might persuade the americans to stay permanently. the for. case.

welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle as the u.s. starts its military withdrawal from iraq what does faith hold for the kurds is posting vision iraqi administratively and democratically strong enough to keep the country intact and if the kurds strive towards an independent state what is stopping. the can. still. get cross-talk the fate of the kurds i'm joined by passion was faisal law in washington he's an independent journalist in new york we cross to brendan o'leary he is the louder a professor of political science at the university of pennsylvania and his most recent book is how to get out of iraq with the integrity and in london we have sami ramadani he's a senior lecturer in sociology at london metropolitan university all right gentlemen this is crosstalk that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first let's take a look at a report about the future facing the kurds following the u.s. withdrawal from iraq. eight years after the u.s.

led invasion of iraq washington is negotiating its withdrawal from this war torn country as forty six thousand u.s. troops prepare to leave iraq and syria surely integrity and fragile democracy are threatened by the brewing animosity between arabs and kurds a factor that has made questionable the plan of a complete pullout i believe that we should take whatever steps are necessary to make sure that we protect whatever progress we have made there. where she marginalized iraqi arabs the kurdish minority has long since been vying for a form of independence which given the sweep of the arab spring could now be more possible than ever and if established kurdish state could potentially entailed the breakup of iraq as well as changing the border of neither in syria turkey and iran all home to significant kurdish minorities no other place in iraq symbolizes the tension separating baghdad and kurdish leaders more than the province of kirk a source of some twenty percent of iraq's oil reserves has no official legal status

iraqi arabs turkmens and kurds who only claims to write under article one forty of the iraqi constitution the dispute over what is supposed to be resolved with a referendum we saw no reason why there should be any more. ration of art but one for three. i think when that happens even those other nationalities living in those areas would have a better chance of. having a better security and those areas so because now it's like a great area no one has full responsibility of doing what is best for the people however the vote has been continuously delayed due to political discord and violence in the region and to date neither arab nor kurdish leaders have been willing to yield their rights to the land currently and entire he was division is deployed to for security in the disputed region and come december thirty first the

. u.s. withdrawal could trigger a bloody conflict. in terms of security when the u.s. leaves there will be no independent security force right now the security is from the kurdish side of the city this is the truth when the us leaves things will get worse there will be conflicts and arabs will stand up and. say with certainty and this will. both wars will begin with. thank you very much whether or not washington decides to leave behind a contingent of u.s. troops in iraq the kurds have a historic opportunity and their trials towards some term and nothing in their history suggests that they will be deterred from pursuing a big state. crosstalk. ok officials in in washington if i can go to you first here as we just heard that report given the circumstances of the withdrawal of the american withdrawal from iraq and what we call the arab spring or what is stopping the kurds from really

going for an independent state something that they have strived for for a very long time now and the circumstances to do that are probably better now than ever before what's stopping them. thank you for giving the opportunity to be on the show i think there are a of reasons that stops the person from declaring an independent states economical political geopolitical and and there's not there's not one single reason that says this is the one reason i think the invasion has helped the kurds have a better. foot step in the political spectrum of the middle east however it hasn't evolved into something that could be the seeds of a state and let's not forget that. the home inside of the kurdistan region

is not yet suitable and greatly for its stated there is aspiration there is hope it is and work towards that. goal the political pragmatists the leaders know that declaring a state right now is not the author a myth. solution to the case that's right clinching to baghdad that's right they're. the most active negotiators in issues that are. infesting baghdad in terms of political process and government formation and security so the kurds for now are considering themselves part of iraq but not for long i mean let's let's beat up to the withdrawal of the of the u.s. forces men and if i can go to you i mean there's a nice saying that the appetite comes with the evening and once the americans do leave to what degree i mean they're keeping something on the ground most likely

irrespective what people white house says are the pentagon says but i mean there's a historic moment right here and we all know that iraq is in political deadlock right now the kurds are kingmakers and if this goes on for much longer the kurds will say you know go ahead guys i mean you figured out we've got oil we have we have unity for the most part in and the lands of the kurds i mean they have a lot of cards to play right now and i'd like to throw in the arab spring in the background about self-determination and and creating a better civil society they're going to have a lot going for them go ahead. the kurdistan regional government is a very secure region it's the best organized part of iraq and it's very important to understand that the kurdish leadership is not planning a period for independence even if it gets excellent opportunities and that's because kurds know historically that if they seek independence that would invite the negative intervention of the neighboring powers in particular turkey and iran

by contrast at this moment the kurds have the ability to reshape iraq they more or less designed its constitution in conjunction with its partners so they have every opportunity to make their influence felt indeed with the departure of the americans they will be the only part of iraq that is reliably pro-american so i would expect them to use their leverage to ensure that there will be american troops patrolling the disputed territories they'll be working hard to ensure that their recent successful detente with the government of turkey continues and they continue to attract inward investment if the kurds were to take the risk of going for independence that might damage all of the successful inward investment they made it would also mean that they'd have to devote almost the entirety of their resources to military needs and they're they don't want to do that they've come a long way in the last decade they don't want to lose the gains of that last decade sammy if i can go to you we heard the word leverage and i think that's probably the most important word when we look at the withdrawal of american troops i mean how

much can the kurds get from baghdad ok i mean we mean everyone's watching each other across though really the question so-called border where the kurds kurdish lands been relatively quiet could sit considering the violence since two thousand and three what can they get from baghdad and how resistance is bad baghdad going to be and when giving anything. well you say baghdad i mean the iraqi president does care dish. representatives of the two leading their dish. governing parties leading polls including the foreign minister and so on so they have pretty substantial influence and baghdad and generally iraqi policies the major ones have been decided with the consent or support of the kurdish leadership of the buy to or take union of kurdistan and the k d p declared its kind of aquatic party. at this point i would like to take issue with one or two of the

premise is both an introduction and maybe politically in what brendan was saying as if there is a kind of i knew more city or big historical clash between the kurdish people and the arab people i think this is a myth we've had that oppressive regimes like saddam's regime attacking the care dish people but there hasn't been this historic people against people tensions or quarrels or fights historically in iraq in fact very people a very few people seem to know that there are about ten million kurdish people impacted they kept it all this is more than more kurds than kurds in any current issue that is that is to. say i think i think you know some of the no no it is not nonsense and me because the kurdish people i very carefully pull advice because

i'm not i know you would like you would like to divide the iraqi people like you're attempting just now but if you let me finish a lot of kurdish people are entitled mated with arabs who are still called nuns and so on and there isn't this rigid ethnic demarcation like you might want to pretend brendan historically the kurdish people. how common interests joint struggles against. iraq for democracy for freedom so so you have the same time to look this is the same time indeed the aspirations of the kurds have been always slowed down if not punished when they do have aspirations granted you want to require that go ahead. i certainly do i think it's it is true that kurds and arabs contain large numbers of people willing to make iraq work as a federation but it is absolute nonsense to deny the historical animosities between arabs and kurds and to deny that successive arab regimes carried out genocide as

make expulsion and coercive assimilation against large denies of medical reasons as well and yet. you mention the past now it's no united nothing that i'd actually i'll let you speak i'd like you to get i'd like you to give me the opportunity or the time to start i dismissed the underskirts they like it isn't it i'm not distorting what you said i listened carefully. people think that's like boundaries between the kurdish it was a large and we let me finish with you that we let me finish please people think wrongly that there's a large kurdish population in baghdad there used to be the fairly kurds were expelled from baghdad by saddam's regime if we look at the votes now kurdish parties in and in federal elections it is a minuscule vote it's a crime and i'm afraid i'm going to interrupt you will let you finish and we come back from the break in this after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the kurds here with r.t. .

if you can. and in the year in iraq is not a true journalist i saw some of the waste go in the u.s. contractors there's kind of wasting their time trying to get killed. i thought all along the length of the leave it out of my father my. huge leave on twenty seven days in new orleans and publicising the people invited the insights into who leads the people started the base of the dialogue the city's. chanting the slogan or raising the slums in the states.

or led. plead the fifth. look plenty plenty plenty. plenty taken against still. in the lead up to the. pledge welcome back to rostock i feel about to remind you we're talking about the fate of the kurds as the u.s. plans its withdrawal from iraq look to take the same plenty. of the brennan that i'd like you to finish up what you were saying before the break here i mean there has been historically a lot of animosity i'd like you know my degree or another we can discuss in this

program go right ahead. well what i think is important is to look forward and there are two core difficulties in relations between arabs and kurds as we go forward the first is that many our politicians in baghdad wish to re centralize iraq in particular the control over natural resources and that's in flat contradiction with the constitution of iraq of two thousand and five which was deliberately designed to ensure that each part of iraq our provinces as well as kurdish majority areas could govern themselves and develop themselves if that program of the constitution is implemented i think all of the historical animosities between kurds and arabs can become the second difficulty arises as as was indicated in your program in the areas of the disputed territories those territories are disputed precisely because of past programs of ethnic expulsion carried out largely by saddam's regime but also by previous arab governments not everything done bad by arabs historically was

done by saddam and others who were involved as well so the key thing that international policymakers and the mastic iraqi citizens have to be focused on is how to ensure those two particular disputes over natural resources and over the disputed territories don't generate further conflict between kurds and arabs and i think that can. be done if history is to follow the constitution from pave the way to the problem and solution is not only to not only to implement article one forty but to encourage proper power sharing arrangements with encourage governorate sharing arrangements that would include an arabs. on the question of all share power in this particular area all right sami real quick and then we're going to washington go ahead sure sure i think brendan again is. care dish animosity there is no animosity between the kurdish an arab peoples that we've had very oppressive regimes especially so if you go on the great plains and live the

way let you have better better brandon this regime killed more arabs than kurds. on formation and the nine hundred ninety one uprising and in chemical weapons and so on he's killed more arabs than kerry so to pretend that this was an arab government just killing kurds is absolutely historically inquiry and that applies to all it is a sitting president as it only has got the freedom was denied that reagan was denied this season was designed to be had i. mean here let me use here let's go to washington go ahead throw in your two cents you're going to be very patient a lot. i think i think it's not over inflated to mention the name our city among kurds and arabs and has occurred as i have lived in kurdistan getting the invasion i have covered the invasion i have sensed those things myself it is a historical. even if you don't want to call it only massive disagreement at this

liking. at least from the first words the arabs and of course it's shared idea i've seen a great deal. but they both know the kurds and the arabs supposed to know that they are forced to live in iraq the arabs claim that iraq is the. us it's a member of the arab league the kurds believe every individual of them believe that they are forced to be part of that country and dad has created any mass and it's very naive and simple to assume that just because regime like saddam's regime or any previous regimes have have. caused destruction and killing of the kurds does not in the minds of the public. give. does not release the general arab population of iraq from

those acts the people do not think that the those regimes were. abstract entities that came from the sky and those are the most people who believe that these things weigh on the iris ok ok let's let's let's move forward today to the end of this year brandon i'd like to go to you here and you see that there are elements of that within the pentagon and maybe even the white house and in baghdad that would use the excuse of possible tension between arabs and kurds to maine if you maintain a an american presence a larger presence than what the americans agreed to a few years ago me we can't leave now because we'll be a civil war. i think it will be an excuse i think there will be a strong request from the government of the kurdistan region together with some responsible arab politicians in baghdad for there to be a continuing arab and syria continuing american presence mediating between the arab majority army in the south and the forces of the kurdish peshmerga in the north and

i think that that will be essential to ensure that there is a stable resolution of the disputed territories if there's an american in a responsible american departure without the issue of the disputed territories having been resolved then there's a high likelihood of renewed conflict even if those responsible leadership on each side because actions on the ground in particular the actions of sunni arab insurgents might destabilize matters so there's a real risk and it won't be an excuse the americans would be absolutely delighted to get completely out of iraq but barack obama would be like it because it will look good for his election campaign so the idea that the americans are maneuvering in order to stay in iraq is simply misplaced there are so do things isley there is a serious dispute ahead. here. i think i think the. the leaving of the americans and keeping

some forces in there to to to hold to put a put a stop to a civil war will not repeat the same scenario of u.s. troops remaining in korea up to this day there's no there's not going to be an end to this. but this bomb to explode this this disputed territories the article one hundred forty of the constitution having not been implemented the those territories have not been issues to the disagreements on those issues have not been resolved yet and will only be delayed but not solved unless the. those are this article is implemented those territories will be returned to people who own the ownership girl there is no claim of those things and these things have not been happening due to political disagreement in baghdad and the arabs do not want this because they already have gained territory that there are very very clear things

that we know that done during saddam's time that can be resolved for example the town of those who are mad to which is a major kurdish town has been the it has trumka corgan and next to create which is a majority of the in province which is a majority arab province and these these shiftings and claims that saddam did have created those issues that need to be resolved because if cook. when are we do apologize for interrupting crosstalk i hear a hearty banalities cross live to sochi where president if you were there first taking the floor to address the russia nato summit let's assume you would see things that are not the solution. because that's pretty. much feel good to talk worms and of measuring your lodging with.

the. rebels you still wouldn't meet him a little further missiles you are going to the. best you can with them because you achieved you. will be mostly as i've been told this one. russian agent council session was quite successful there's respect i hope it made progress on our agenda. i really think. so obviously. this is a unique opportunity. that was open to talk to us by the lisbon summit. last november. the decisions made at that summit. we consider why positive. since

this is the sorts of decisions that could be used to build up a strategic partnership with the office based on end it is all security and trust transparency. predictability. this is. generally good for global security. it is an answer to the hopes and interests of the people who live in the countries we're representing. summits in a list on approved a new strategic concept for nato. which focuses on developing partnerships with other states and organizations across the world. we believe this to be a very important. goal allow us to create a more a stronger and more secure world order. but is that the rumor

we just discussed presence zuma took part in the discussion of the libyan problem which is quite complicated this is an example of what i see as liquid someone as a situation that we can. make collette pick up their first scene prove. but we were simply she had three good moments a lot to discuss as partners the most difficult issues and find ways out of difficult situations but you know for mr secretary-general. if you could say she was least. with the president mr and visit. my opinion you see a resolution to this. probability but the question is what you would also. do which is in which to us. i also wish through to thank you for your personal commitment to

nato russia corporation with your support we created the spirit of list been there when we met at summit level last november we agreed on the importance of a strong nato russia partnership we agreed that the nato russia council would be the place to discuss all issues. at all times and we agreed not to rule it the disagreements we do have stand in a way. your presence in search of today's another important signal of your commitment. and will your continued support i'm confident that our discussions this afternoon will help bring to our cooperation. and in this period of lisbon i expect them to be frank fruitful and friendly.

nato and russia face many of the same security challenges we're working to defeat terrorism on land at sea and in the air we are fighting piracy side by side we are investing in efforts to step allies afghanistan and counter that badly drop straight and since we face the same threats hope ration between us is the only choice that makes sense it is the best prize towards a strategic partnership and we must press forward on this process. our meeting with allow us to review how far we have come between lisp and searching and he wouldn't give us the momentum to move further forward because i believe they stated much more we can do especially in the area of ms and defense we

know that at least thirty countries around the world have all are trying to acquire missile technology so we need to develop our defenses mr president we all agree on the importance of taking forward our partnership and to pass a partnership is built on common ground by working together we can build on that common ground and we should also seek to break new ground and with your continued support we can make that happen so that all our nations stand on safe ground. this is an opportunity we must seize together today thank you.