of self-sacrifice comparison with those who understand it fully but you have to live a. real life stories from world war two. nineteen forty five dollars archie dot com. he would r.t. live from moscow i will do a quick summary of the top headlines now nato says it's not going to build a joint system with russia and doesn't find it necessary to provide moscow with legal guarantees the shield won't be targeting the country as plunges the dialogue be put into a stalemate. as the alliance runs out of missiles for us as strike campaign over libya germany u. turns on its policy all of abstaining from the conflict so it can deliver a bailout to its war allies. and. general is

adjusted from the war crimes court forcing the judge to enter a not guilty plea on his behalf lighted faces charges including genocide carried out in the balkans war as some are serbs accuse the hague of one sided justice. well my colleague is here in half an hour's time for an hour in cross talk people of bell and his guests discuss what the u.s. withdrawal might mean for the kurdish community in iraq and whether fears of separatism and ethnic clashes might persuade the americans to stay to stay with us . please. you can. still. welcome the crosstown time peter lavelle as the u.s. starts its military withdrawal from iraq what his fate hold for the kurds is post invasion iraqi administratively and democratically strong enough to keep the country intact and if the kurds strive towards an independent state what is

stopping. the can. cross talk the fate of the kurds i'm joined by pressure was faisal law in washington he's an independent journalist in new york we cross to brendan o'leary he is the louder a professor of political science at the university of pennsylvania and his most recent book is how to get out of iraq with the integrity and in london we have sami ramadani he's a senior lecturer in sociology at london metropolitan university all right gentlemen this is crosstalk that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first let's take a look at a report about the future facing the kurds following the u.s. withdrawal from iraq. eight years after the u.s. led invasion of iraq washington is negotiating its withdrawal from this war torn country it's forty six thousand u.s. troops prepare to leave iraq as soon tauriel integrity and fragile democracy are

threatened by the brewing animosity between arabs and kurds i factor that has made questionable the plan of a complete pullout i believe that we should take whatever steps are necessary to make sure that we protect whatever progress we have made bear. largely marginalized by iraqi arabs the kurdish minority has long since been vying for a form of independence which given the sweep of the arab spring could not be more possible than ever and establish kurdish state who could potentially entailed the breakup of iraq as well as changing the border of neighboring syria turkey and iran well home to significant kurdish minorities and no other place in iraq symbolizes the tension separating baghdad and kurdish leaders more than the province of kirk a source of some twenty percent of iraq's oil reserves who has no official legal status iraqi arabs turkmens and kurds who only claims to it under article one forty of the iraqi constitution the dispute over who is supposed to be resolved with a referendum we saw no reason why there should be any more.

implementation of article one for. i think when that happens even those other nationalities living in those areas would have a better chance of. having a better security in those areas too because now it's like a great area no one has full responsibility of doing what is best for the people however the vote has been continuously delayed due to political discord and violence in the region and to date neither arab nor kurdish leaders have been willing to yield their rights to the land currently and the entire us division is deployed to force security in the disputed region and come december thirty first the. u.s. withdrawal can trigger a bloody conflict. in terms of security when the us leaves there will be no independent security force right now the security is from the kurdish side of the city this is the truth when the us leaves things will get worse there will be

conflicts and arabs will stand up and pray to say with certainty and this will cause. wars will begin between the ethnic groups. thank you very much whether or not washington decides to leave behind a contingent of u.s. troops in iraq the kurds have a historic opportunity in their trials towards some term and nothing in their history suggests that they will be deterred from pursuing a bid for statehood. for crosstalk. ok pace wasn't in washington if i can go to you first here as we discerned that report given the circumstances of the withdrawal of the american withdrawal from iraq and what we call the arab spring here what is stopping the kurds from really going for an independent state something that they have strived for for a very long time now and the circumstances to do that are probably better now than ever before what's stopping them. thank you for giving me the opportunity and

show i think there are a of the reasons that starts the kurds from the clearing in the pan and states canonical political geopolitical and and there's not there's not one single reason that says this is that they're one reason i think the invasion has helped the current have a better. foot step in the political spectrum of the middle east however it has and evolve into something that could be the seeds of a state and let's not forget that they're the home there inside of the kurdistan region is not yet suitable and ready for its statehood there is a separation there is hope there is and work towards it. all the political

pragmatists and leaders know that. declaring a state right now is not the ultimate. so lucian to the case that's why i did clinton to baghdad that's why they're. the most active negotiators in issues that are. infesting baghdad in terms of political process and formation and security so the kurds for now are considering themselves part of iraq but not for you but let's let's speak to the withdrawal of the of the u.s. forces men and if i can go you i mean there's a nice saying the appetite comes with eating and once the americans do leave to what degree i mean they're keeping something on the ground most likely irrespective what people white house says or the pentagon says but i mean there's a historic moment right here and we all know that iraq is in political deadlock right now the kurds are kingmakers and if this goes on for much longer the kurds

will say you know go ahead guys i mean you figure it out we've got oil we have we have unity for the most part in and the lands of the kurds i mean they have a lot of cards to play right now and i'd like to throw in they the arab spring in the background about self-determination and and creating a better civil society they could they have a lot going for them. the kurdistan regional government is a very secure region it's the best organized part of iraq and it's very important to understand that the kurdish leadership is not planning a bid for independence even if it gets excellent opportunity and that's because kurds know historically that if they seek independence that will invite the negative intervention of the neighboring powers in particular turkey and iran by contrast at this moment the kurds have the ability to reshape iraq they more or less designed its constitution in conjunction with its with shiite partners so they have every opportunity to make their influence felt indeed with the departure of

the americans they were the only part of iraq that is reliably pro-american so i would expect them to use their leverage to ensure that there will be american troops patrolling the disputed territories they'll be working hard to ensure that their recent successful detente with the government of turkey continues and they continue to attract inward investment if the kurds were to take the risk of going for independence that might damage all of the successful inward investment they've made it would also mean that they'd have to devote almost the entirety of their resources to military needs and they don't want to do that they've come a long way in the last decade they don't want to lose the games of that last decade so if i can go to you we heard the word leverage and i think that's probably the most important word when we look at the withdrawal of american troops i mean how much can the kurds get from baghdad ok i mean we they were everyone's watching each other across the levy the so-called border where of a kurd the kurdish lands been relatively quiet sick considering the violence since

two thousand and three what can they get from baghdad and how resistance is bad baghdad going to be and when giving anything. when you say baghdad i mean be iraqi president scared. representatives of the two leading care dish. governing parties leading posing clipping the foreign minister and so on so they have pretty substantial influence and baghdad and generally iraqi policies the major ones have been decided would be consent or support of the kurdish leadership of the patriotic union of kurdistan and the kurdistan democratic party. at this point i would like to take issue with one or two of the premises both an interruption and maybe politically in what brendan are saying as if there is a kind of a new more city or

a big historical clash between the care dish people and the arab people i think this is a myth we've had to oppressive regimes like saddam's regime attacking the kurdish people but there hasn't been this historic people against people who tensions or or quarrels or fights historically in iraq and fact very people a very few people seem to know that there are about ten million kurdish people in baghdad the capital this is more than more cares than cares in any kurdish area that is that is true. i would say i think i think you is known some of the no no it is not nonsense to me because the kurdish people are where they care to pull a vise and the cards i know are i know you would like you would like to divide the iraqi people like you're attempting just now but if you let me finish a lot of care dish people are entitled met it with our arabs with total commands

and so on and there isn't this rigid ethnic demarcation like you might want to pretend brendan historically the kurdish an arab people. how. common interests join struggles against colonial longing for democracy for freedom so the so you. the same time to look at this sami but the same time into the aspirations of the kurds have been always slowed down if not punished when they do have aspirations granted you want to reply to that go ahead i certainly do i think it's it is true that kurds and arabs contain large numbers of people willing to make iraq work as a federation but it is absolute nonsense to deny the historical animosities between arabs and kurds and to deny that successive arab regimes carried out genocide ethnic expulsion and coercive assimilation against large denied hours of. the recent south and yet. you mention using the past and you might not think that i'd

actually i let you speak i'd like you to get i'd like you to give me the opportunity to start i dismiss the kurds their life has an end i'm not distorting what you say but i listen carefully. people think that sat down three. there was a large x. will you let me finish will you that we let me finish please people think wrongly that there's a large kurdish population in baghdad there used to be the faily kurds were expelled from baghdad by saddam's regime if we look at a vote in our kurdish parties in and in federal elections it is a minuscule go to surprise then i'm afraid i'm going to be in iraq to almost surely surely come back from the break after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the current state with r.t. . and.

i'm spending the year in iraq as a military journalist i saw some of the ways to go in the u.s. contractors there's kind of wasting their time trying to get killed. i thought all along the link to do stuff to see about my life and in my. view would be about twenty seven days in new going to publicize the people invited the markets i think the hope believes these people started the bait of a dialogue just. chanting the slowly earth radio silence in the states. some twenty years ago the largest country in the surveys it looks.

like the fleet which had been tremendously since began a journey. where did it take to. download the official anti obligation to go on the phone on called touch from the queues i'm still. lunch on t.v. like on the go. see video on demand oxys minefield costs and r.s.s. feeds are now in the palm of your. question on the coffee. place to try to keep the pigs. from bull. plenty. welcome back to rostock i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're talking about the

fate of the kurds as the year. supplants its withdrawal from iraq. can. still say. ok brennan like you to finish up what you were saying before the break i mean there has been historically a lot of animosity and i'd like my degree or another we can discuss in this program go right ahead. well what i think is important is to look forward and there are two core difficulties in relations between arabs and kurds as we go forward the first is that many arab politicians in baghdad wish to recentre lies iraq in particular the control over natural resources and that's in flaps contradiction with the constitution of iraq of two thousand and five which was deliberately designed to ensure that each part of iraq our provinces as well as kurdish majority areas could govern themselves and develop themselves if that program of the constitution is implemented i think all of the historical animosities between kurds and arabs can

be current the second difficulty arises as as was indicated in your program in the areas of the disputed territories now those territories are disputed precisely because of past programs of ethnic expulsion carried out largely by saddam's regime but also by previous arab governments not everything done bad by arabs historically was done by saddam and others who were involved as well so the key thing that international policy makers and domestic iraqi citizens have to be focused on is how to ensure those two particular disputes over natural resources and over disputed territories don't generate further conflict between kurds and arabs i think that. the gun uses to it is to follow the constitution to pay the way to the problem and solution is not only to know not only to implement article one forty but to encourage proper power sharing arrangements we concur that sharing arrangements that would include an arabs kurds render the christians all share

power in this particular area all right sami real quick and then we're going to washington go ahead sure sure i think brendan again is pledging this care to show animosity there is no animosity between the kurdish an arab peoples that we've had the oppressive regimes specialist. go way that you have better brandon said this regime killed more arabs than kurds. information and the ninety ninety one uprising and in the chemical weapons and so on he's killed more arabs than kerry so to pretend that this was an arab book a government just killing kurds is absolutely historically in court and that applies to all is a sitting president president of the got free time was denied us reagan was denied us of freedom was decided on all this and i. mean here let me show you what's going on washington go ahead throw in your two cents you're going to be very patient. i think i think it's not over inflators to mention the name our city among kurds and

arabs and kurds as i have lived in kurdistan during the invasion i have covered the invasion i have since those things myself it is a historical. even if you don't want to call it any more said the disagreement at this liking. at least from the kurds to us the arabs and of course it's shared by the arabs in a great deal. but they both know the kurds and the arabs supposed to know that they are forced to live in iraq the arabs claim that iraq is the. number of the arab league the kurds believe in the visual of them believe that they are forced to be a part of that country and that has created really nasty and it's very naive and simple to assume that just because regime like saddam's regime or any the

previous regimes have have have. caused destruction and killing of the kurds there is not in the minds of the public. give. does not release the general arab population of iraq from those acts so people do not think that the those regimes were. abstract entities that came from the sky and did those things people do believe that these lands where they are and that iris ok let's let's let's move forward to the end of this year brandon i think go to you here do you see if there are elements of that within the pentagon and maybe even the white house and in baghdad that would use the excuse of possible tension between arabs and kurds to maine maintain a an american presence a larger presence than what the americans agreed to a few years ago i mean we can't leave now because will be a civil war. i think it won't be an excuse i think there will be

a strong request from the government of the kurdistan region together with some responsible arab politicians in baghdad for there to be a continuing arab and continuing american presence mediating between the arab majority army in the south and the forces of the kurdish peshmerga in the north and i think that that will be essential to ensure that there's a stable resolution of the disputed territories if there's an american in a responsible american departure without the issue of the disputed territories having been resolved then there's a high likelihood of renewed conflict even if there's responsible leadership on each side because actions on the ground in particular the actions of sunni arab insurgents might destabilize matters so there's a real risk and it going to be an excuse the americans would be absolutely delighted to get completely out of iraq barack obama with a particular because it looked good for his election campaign so the idea that the americans are maneuvering in order to stay in iraq and simply misplaced there are

duties isley there is a serious artist peter had. to go to washington here. i think i think the the. the leaving of the americans and keeping some thorson's in there to to to hold to put a put a stop to a civil war will repeat the same scenario of u.s. troops remaining in korea up to this day there's no there's not going to be an end to this. this bomb to explode this this disputed territories the article one hundred forty of the constitution having not been implemented yet those territories have not issues the disagreements on those issues have not been resolved yet will only be delayed but not solved unless. those are this article is implemented those territories will be returned to people who own the the ownership

the original claim of those things and these things have not been happening due to political disagreement in baghdad and the arabs do not want this because they already have gained territory that there is very very clear things that we know that. during saddam's time that can be results for example that town of. my pool which is a major kurdish town has been he cast from kerkorian and execute which is jurors who are having problems which is a majority arab province these these shiftings and playings. have created those issues that need to be resolved because if cook is returned to the nine hundred fifty eight demography whatever. admission of unit of cook province at the time was things will change there will then be

a majority arab in the province as it is now and there therefore things will change in forever and m. is held in the. different i'm going to sami sami what business what business does the united states and its allies have in mediating this conflict between the kurds or potential conflict when you put it away between the kurds and the arabs in iraq i mean is it is time for the united states and its allies to get out in the lead to people on the ground figure out what is best for them because our q patient. genders animosity we've seen that in iraq we've seen that in afghanistan we're seeing it possibly in libya. i think you've had the nail on the head there most of iraq's problems today i'm an eighteen from the continued occupation of iraq and the sooner the u.s. led forces leave the terror with the tens of thousands of mercenaries of blackwater and the like they brought with them they are the poison of in the middle of iraqi

society and i think a lot of these problems can be resolved and i don't share the opinions of your other two guests with respect to them that there is this enormous animosity between the arab people of iraq and the kurdish people and let me out of this at this particular moment the clear my principles to what is a kurdish people became a dish people deserve the right to self-determination and this i believe in very very strongly this right to self their determination cannot come under occupation it can only come within a democratic iraq where they care dish people will enjoy their right to self-determination this is something not even the kurdish leaders are daring to pronounce and implement because they are listening to washington that throwing all their eggs and could be putting all their eggs in the washington basket instead of building. good relations with the peoples of the region with the people of turkey

people of iran people of iraq against repressive regimes the future of the kurdish people is with the peoples of the region you cannot move that the the mountains the great mountains of could stand to washington the people of the region have to resolve their own problems without occupations of military interventions the united states is applying enormous pressure on the iraqi government to maintain their forces by didn't meet their visit american generals made statements u.s. defense secretary made the visit they are all trying to hide behind this week iraqi or. or a g.m. tied to washington protected by washington they're trying to hide behind it and say ask us to stay i ask us to say this is what's up right now they're going to raise because france is in there and i said this in the last word this program here we've heard the term the arab spring is there such a thing as the kurds spring there was a kurdish. friend. there there is an arab

spring and it's a very welcome there has been already a kurdish spring there is no occupation of the kurdistan region there are no american american soldiers present there any american presence on iraqis i was thrilled by it because it's about regional government there is there is corruption throughout our of iraq on a much greater scale than the kurdistan region i think what you've heard recently unfortunately is old fashioned arab nationalists propaganda and what is vital to understand is that iraq has just gone through an absolutely terrific arab civil war that was not primarily caused by the american occupation it was called what i believe this is just a great journalism in a very serious crisis with a certain amount of time for many thanks to my guest today in new york in washington and london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember. if you.

want to.