meridia the leader of the g.o.p. hotels church in new delhi who took the maori babyhood to carry election among the close of the maiden's hotels the leader particles of the leader religious and shifting it was promise. if you just join us for a warm welcome there's a lot of t.v. here in moscow top stories of this nato says it's not going to build a joint anti missile system with russia and doesn't find it necessary to provide moscow with legal guarantees the shield won't be targeting the country this plunges the donald deeper into a stalemate. as the alliance runs out of missile strike campaign over libya germany u. turns on its policy of abstaining from the conflict so you can deliver a bomb bailout through its war on ice and. general recommend it she's ejected from

the war crimes court forcing the just to enter a not guilty plea on his behalf that it faces charges including genocide carried out in the balkans war some serbs accuse the hague of one sided justice. i'll be back in less than thirty minutes from now as the news continues here on out in the meantime cross-talk and pisa lavelle and his guests discuss what the u.s. withdrawal night mean for the kurdish community in iraq and whether fears of separatism and ethnic clashes might as well here in america to stay. i. can still. welcome the crosstalk i'm peter lavelle as the u.s. starts his military withdrawal from iraq what his fate hold for the kurds his post in beijing arac administrative leave and democratically strong enough to keep the country intact and if the kurds strive towards an independent state what is

stopping. the can. to prostate the fate of the kurds i'm joined by pressure was faisal law in washington he's an independent journalist in new york we cross to brendan o'leary he is the louder professor of political science at the university of pennsylvania and his most recent book is how to get out of iraq with the integrity and in london we have sami ramadani he's a senior lecturer in sociology at london metropolitan university all right gentlemen this is cross talk that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first let's take a look at a report about the future facing the kurds following the u.s. withdrawal from iraq. eight years after the u.s. led invasion of iraq washington is negotiating its withdrawal from this war torn country it's forty six thousand u.s. troops prepare to leave iraq is syria tauriel integrity and fragile democracy are

threatened by the brewing animosity between arabs and kurds a factor that has made questionable the plan of a complete pullout i believe that we should take whatever steps are necessary to make sure that we protect whatever progress we have made their. clergy marginalized by iraqi arabs the kurdish minority has long since been vying for a form of independence which given the sweep of the arab spring could now be more possible than ever and if established kurdish statehood could potentially entailed the breakup of iraq as well as changing the border of neighboring syria turkey and iran all home to significant kurdish minorities and no other place in iraq symbolizes the tension separating baghdad and kurdish leaders more than the province of kirk a source of some twenty percent of iraq's oil reserves kirk who has no official legal status iraqi arabs turkmens and kurds have only claims to it under article one forty of the iraqi constitution the dispute over who is supposed to be resolved with a referendum we saw no reason why there should be any more. implementation

of art than one fourth. i think when that happens even those other nationalities living in those areas would have a better chance of. having a better secure within those areas so because now it's like a gray area no one has full responsibility of doing it what has passed for the people however the vote has been continuously delayed due to political discord and violence in the region and to date neither arab nor kurdish leaders have been willing to yield their rights to the land currently and the entire us division is deployed to force security in the disputed region and come just number thirty first the. u.s. withdrawal could trigger a bloody conflict. in terms of security when the u.s. leaves there will be no independent security force right now the security is from the kurdish side of the city and this is the truth when the u.s.

leaves things will get worse there will be conflict arabs will stand up and pray to say with certainty and this will cause the violence. both wars will begin to. say. thank you very much whether or not washington decides to leave behind a contingent of u.s. troops in iraq the kurds have a historic opportunity in their trials towards some term and nothing in their history suggests that they will be deterred from pursuing a bid for statehood. for cross-talk r t. ok this wasn't in washington if i can go to you first here as we discerned that report given the circumstances of the withdrawal of the american withdrawal from iraq and what we call the arab spring here what is stopping the kurds from really going for an independent state something that they have strived for for a very long time now and the circumstances to do that are probably better now than ever before what's stopping them. thank you for giving the opportunity to be and

show i think there are an array of reasons that stops the kurds from declaring an independent state economical political geopolitical and an end it's not there's not one single reason that says this is the one reason i think the invasion has helped the kurds have a better. foot step in the political spectrum of the middle east however it hasn't evolved into something that could be the seeds of a state and let's not forget that. the home inside of the kurdistan region is not yet suitable and ready for its statehood there is a separation there is hope that is and work towards. older political

pragmatists the leaders know that. declaring a state right now is not the ultimate. so lucian to the case that's right clinching to baghdad that's why they're. the most active negotiators in issues that. are infesting baghdad in terms of political process and government formation and security so the kurds for now are considering themselves part of iraq but not for long let's let's speak after the withdrawal of the of the u.s. forces when and if i can go to you i mean there's a nice saying the appetite comes with the eating and once the americans do leave to what degree i mean they're keeping something on the ground most likely irrespective what people white house says or the pentagon says but i mean there's a historic moment right here and we all know that iraq is in political deadlock right now the kurds are kingmakers and if this goes on for much longer the kurds

will say you know go ahead guys i mean you figure it out we've got oil we have we have unity for the most part in the lands of the kurds i mean they have a lot of cards to play right now and i'd like to throw in they the arab spring in the background about self-determination and and creating a better civil society they could they have a lot going for them go ahead. the kurdistan regional government is a very secure region it's the best organized part of iraq and it's very important to understand that the kurdish leadership is not planning a bid for independence even if it gets excellent opportunities and that's because kurds know historically that if they seek independence that will invite the negative intervention of the neighboring powers in particular turkey and iran by contrast at this moment the kurds have the ability to reshape iraq they more or less designed its constitution in conjunction with its with shiite partners so they have every opportunity to make their influence felt indeed with the departure of

the americans they will be only part of iraq that is reliably pro-american so i would expect them to use their leverage to ensure that there will be american troops patrolling the disputed territories they'll be working hard to ensure that their recent successful they count with the government of turkey continues and they continue to attract inward investment if the kurds were to take the risk of going for independence that might damage all of the successful inward investment they've made it would also mean that they'd have to devote almost the entirety of their resources to military needs and there they don't want to do that they've come a long way in the last decade they don't want to lose the gains of that last decade sam if i can go to you we heard the word leverage and i think that's probably the most important word when we look at the withdrawal of american troops i mean how much can the kurds get from baghdad ok i mean we they were everyone's watching each other across the the so-called border where of a kurd the kurdish lands been relatively quiet sick considering the violence since

two thousand and three what can they get from baghdad and how resistance is bad baghdad going to be and when giving anything. well you say baghdad i mean the iraqi president is kurdish. representatives of the two leading care dish. governing party's leading posing threatening the foreign minister and so on so they have pretty substantial influence and baghdad and generally iraqi policies the major ones have been decided would be consent or support of the kurdish leadership of the patriotic union of kurdistan and the k.d.t. the kurdistan democratic party. at this point i would like to take issue with one or two of the premises both an introduction and maybe politically in what brendan are saying as if there is a kind of i mean more city or big historical clash between the care dish people and

our people i think this is a myth we've had the oppressive regimes like saddam's regime attacking the kurdish people but that hasn't been this historic a people against people tensions or quarters or fights historically in iraq and in fact very people a very few people seem to know about there are about ten million kurdish people in baghdad the capital this is more than more cares than cares in any kurdish area that is that is true. i think i think you is not some of the no no it is not nonsense to me because the kurdish people i work like erudition total advice and the cards i know are i know you would like you would like to divide the iraqi people like you're attempting just now but if you let me finish a lot of care of these people are entitled met it with arabs with total coal mines and so on and there isn't this rigid ethnic demarcation like you might want to

pretend brendan historically have occurred to shannara people. how. common interests joint struggles against colonial longing for democracy for freedom so the so you have the same time to look. at the same time into the aspirations of the kurds have been always slowed down if not punished when they do have aspirations granted you want to reply to that go ahead. i certainly do i think it's it is true that kurds and arabs contain large numbers of people willing to make iraq work as a federation but it is absolute nonsense to deny the historical animosities between arabs and kurds and to deny that successive arab regimes carried out genocide ethnic expulsion and coercive assimilation against large denies of kurds i measure the real reason south well and get the idea. you mention your past i know it's no

good you might not do that i doubt you i let you speak i'd like you to get i'd like you to give me the opportunity i would like but i distort i dismiss the kurds i like it isn't it i'm not distorting what you said i listened carefully. people think that saddam's regime that there was a large will you let me finish will you that we let me finish please people think wrongly that there's a large kurdish population in baghdad there used to be the faily kurds were expelled from baghdad by saddam's regime if we look at both now kurdish parties in and in federal elections it is a miniscule the surprise and i'm afraid i'm going to be in iraq to all make sure we come back from the break in after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the current state with r.t. . if you. think you can.

spending the year in iraq is no a true journalist i just saw the waste go in and the u.s. contractors there's kind of wasting their time trying to get kills three. zero am. i thought all along the length of the stuff to be about five hundred muslims a huge stream of twenty seven days in new coins and publicising people invited the monks and i think the pope leads people started the faith of a dialogue says just because a change in the slogan or way to sleep in some instance. on. her.

fists . the first step to a. subliminal the for. her. for the full sentiment we've got it firsthand the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers on the. sled to keep the symbols of.

welcome back to rostock i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're talking about the fate of the kurds as the u.s. plans its withdrawal from iraq. can. start. ok brennan that you know i'd like you to finish up what you were saying before the break i mean there has been historically a lot of animosity and i'd like you know my degree or another we can discuss in this program go right ahead. well what i think is important is to look forward and there are two core difficulties in relations between arabs and kurds as we go forward the first is that many arab politicians in baghdad wish to recentre lies iraq in particular the control over natural resources and that's in flats contradiction with the constitution of iraq of two thousand and five which was deliberately designed to ensure that each part of iraq are a provinces as well as kurdish majority areas could govern themselves and develop

themselves if that program of the constitution is implemented i think all of the historical animosities between kurds and arabs can be current the second difficulty arises as as was indicated in your program in the areas of the disputed territories now those territories are disputed precisely because of past programs of ethnic expulsion carried out largely by saddam's regime but also by previous arab governments not everything done bad by arabs historically was done by saddam and others who were involved as well so the key thing that international policy makers and domestic iraqi citizens have to be focused on is how to ensure those two particular disputes over natural resources and over it is through to territories don't generate further conflict between kurds and arabs i think that can. be done because he has to it is to follow the constitution jump a way to the problem and solution is not only to not only not only to implement article one forty but to encourage proper power sharing arrangements we concur that

car sharing arrangements that with arabs birds surrender on the christian minorities all share power in this particular area all right sami real quick and then we're going to washington go ahead sure sure i think brendan again is pledging this caddish animosity better is no animosity between because the shannara people that we've had the oppressive regimes specialists like you andre dubus and by the way let you have brendan this regime killed more arabs than carrots. information and the ninety ninety one uprising and in the chemical weapons and so on he is killed more arabs than kerry so to pretend that this was an out of book government just killing kurds is absolutely historically in court and that applies to all it is a simple as a sitting president years ago freedom was denied us freedom was denied us of freedom was decided on the whole thing and i. mean here let me see here let's go to

washington go ahead throw in your two cents you're going to be very patient. i think i think it's not over inflated to mention the name our city among kurds and arabs and has occurred as i have lived in kurdistan during the invasion i have covered the invasion i have since those things myself it is a historical. even if you don't want to call it any massive disagreement at this liking. at least from the kurds to us the arabs and of course it's share idea of seeing a great deal. but they both know the kurds and the arabs the poles know that they are forced to live in iraq the arabs claim that iraq is the us it's a member of the arab league the kurds believe every individual of them believe that they were forced to be a part of that country and that has created any mass and it's very naive

and simple to assume that just because regime like saddam's regime or any previous regimes have have have. caused destruction and killing of the kurds that's not in the minds of the public. give. does not release the general arab population of iraq from those acts to people do not think that the. abstract entities that came from the sky and most people do believe these things way and that i read ok ok let's let's move forward to the end of this year brandon and i do go to you here and you see that there are elements in there within the pentagon and maybe even the white house and in baghdad that would use the excuse of possible tension between arabs and kurds to maintain a an american presence a larger presence than what the americans agreed to a few years ago i mean we can't leave now because it'll be

a civil war. i think it won't be an excuse i think there will be a strong request from the government of the kurdistan region together with some responsible arab politicians in baghdad for there to be a continuing arab and sorry a continuing american presence mediating between the arab majority army in the south and the forces of the kurdish peshmerga in the north and i think that that will be essential to ensure that there's a stable resolution of the disputed territories if there's an american in a responsible american departure without the issue of the disputed territories having been resolved then there's a high likelihood of renewed conflict even if those responsible leadership on each side because actions on the ground in particular the actions of sunni arab insurgents might destabilize matters so there's a real risk and it would be an excuse the americans would be absolutely delighted to get completely out of iraq barack obama would be like it because it looked good

for his election campaign so the idea that the americans are maneuvering in order to stay in iraq and simply misplaced there are two things i see there is a serious dispute ahead. i am going to washington in here. i think i think the the. the leaving of the americans and keeping some thoughts is in there to to to hold people to put a stop to a civil war will repeat the same scenario of u.s. troops remaining in korea up to this day this is not going to be an end to this. this bomb to explode this this disputed territories the article one hundred forty of the constitution having not been implemented yet those territories have not issues the disagreements on those issues have not been resolved yet will

only be delayed but not solved unless those. this article is implemented those territories will be returned to people who own the ownership their original claim of those things and these things have not been happening due to political disagreement in baghdad and the arabs do not want this because they already have gained territory there's very very clear things that we know that. during saddam's time that can be resolved for example the town of those who are mad to which is a major kurdish town has been he cast from kirkuk and next to crete which is a majority of the in province which is a majority arab province these these shiftings and planes. have created those issues that need to be resolved because if cook is returned to the nine hundred fifty eight demography of whatever. of unit of co cook

province at the time was things will change there will then be a majority arab in the province as it is now and there therefore things will change if her referendum is held in. no different i got to sami sami what business what business does the united states and its allies have in mediating this conflict between the kurds or potential conflict if you put it that way between the kurds and the arabs in iraq i mean is it is time for the united states and its allies to get out in let the people on the ground figure out what is best for them because our q patient. genders animosity we've seen that in iraq we've seen that in afghanistan we're seeing it possibly in libya. i think you've had the nail on the head there most of iraq's problems today i mean a thing from the continued occupation of iraq and the sooner the u.s. led forces leave the better with the tens of thousands of mercenaries of blackwater

and the like they brought with them they are the poison of in the middle of iraqi society and i think a lot of these problems can be resolved and i don't share the opinions of your other two guests with due respect to them that there is this enormous animosity between the arab people of iraq and the kurdish people and let me out of this at this particular moment the clear my principle stand towards the kurdish people they care dish people deserve the right to self-determination and this i believe in very very strongly this right to self dinner determination cannot come under occupation it can only come within a democratic iraq where they care dish people will enjoy their right to self-determination this is something not even the kurdish leaders are daring to pronounce and implement because they are listening to washington that throwing all their eggs into the putting all their eggs in the washington basket instead of

building. good relations with the peoples of the region with the people of turkey people of iran people of iraq against repressive regimes the future of the kurdish people is with the peoples of the region you cannot move that the the mountains the great mountains of course are to stand to washington the people of the region have to resolve their own problems without occupations of military interventions the united states is applying enormous pressure on the iraqi government to maintain their forces bided may to visit american generals made statements here as defense secretary made the visit they are all trying to hide behind this week iraqi. the regime tied to washington protected by washington that tried to hide behind it and say ask us to stay ask us to say this is what's up right now they're going to read some of your friends in there listening. in the last word this program here we've

heard the term the arab spring is there such a thing as the kurds spring there was a kind of. friendship that there have there is an arab spring and it's a very welcome there has been already a kurdish spring there is no occupation of the kurdistan region there are no american american soldiers present there any american presence and if that is that israel shouldn't go because it's about a regional government there is there is corruption throughout our of iraq on a much greater scale than the kurdistan region i think what you've heard recently unfortunately is old fashioned arab nationalist propaganda and what is vital to understand is that iraq has just gone through an absolutely terrific in fact arab civil war that was not primarily caused by the american occupation it was called what i've been doing this is just gentlemen this has been a very sad discussion this waste of time and many thanks to my guest today in new york in washington and london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t.

see you next time and remember. it. if.