if you're just joining us a very warm welcome party coming to you live from the russian capital twenty four hours a day top stories now and they chose this is not going to build a joint anti-missile system with russia and doesn't find it necessary to provide moscow with legal guarantees the shield won't be targeting the country his punches the donald deeper into a stalemate. general recommend outages ejected from the war crimes court forcing the chance to enter a not guilty plea on his behalf and it faces charges including genocide carried out in the balkans war as some serbs accuse the hague of one sided justice. and

despite a price of almost plan for a massive pullout from afghanistan next year experts claim america is stuck there for years to come and paying for the conflict with my aides and money. oh my colleague one of us should be here in less than thirty minutes from now the news continues in the meantime cross-talk peter lavelle and his guests discuss what the u.s. withdrawal might mean for the kurdish community in iraq and whether fears of separatism and ethnic clashes might persuade the americans to stay debate next on r.t. . you can. still. welcome the cross-talk i'm peter lavelle as the u.s. starts its military withdrawal from iraq what does faith hold for the kurds is posting beige in iraq administratively and democratically strong enough to keep the

country intact and if the kurds strive towards an independent state what is stopping. you can. say. crosstalk the fate of the kurds i'm joined by pressure was faisal law in washington he's an independent journalist in new york we cross to brendan o'leary he is the lauder professor of political science at the university of pennsylvania and his most recent book is how to get out of iraq with the integrity and in london we have sami ramadani he's a senior lecturer in sociology at london metropolitan university all right gentlemen this is crosstalk that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first let's take a look at a report about the future facing the kurds following the u.s. withdrawal from iraq. eight years after the u.s. led invasion of iraq washington is negotiating its withdrawal from this war torn country it's forty six thousand u.s. troops prepare to leave iraq its territorial integrity and fragile democracy are

threatened by the brewing animosity between arabs and kurds a factor that has need questionable the plan of a complete pullout i believe that we should take whatever steps are necessary to make sure that we protect whatever progress we have made there. where she marginalized iraqi arabs the kurdish minority has long since been vying for form of independence which even the sweep of the arab spring could now be more possible than ever and established kurdish statehood could potentially entailed the breakup of iraq as well as changing the border of neighboring syria turkey and iran all home to significant kurdish minorities no other place in iraq symbolizes the tension separating baghdad and kurdish leaders more than the province of kirk a source of some twenty percent of iraq's oil reserves has no official legal status iraqi arabs turkmens and kurds have only claims to do it under article one of the iraqi constitution the dispute over who is supposed to be resolved with

a referendum we saw no reason why there should be any more. implementation of article one for. i think when that happens even those other nationalities living in those areas would have a better chance of having a better security and those areas too because now it's like a great area no one has full responsibility of doing what is best for the people however the good has been continuously delayed due to political discord and violence in the region and today their arab kurdish leaders have been willing to yield their rights to the land currently and the entire u.s. division is deployed to enforce security in the disputed region and come just over thirty first the. u.s. withdrawal could trigger a bloody conflict. in terms of security when the us leaves there will be no independent security force right now the security is from only the kurdish side of

the city this is the truth when the us leaves things will get worse there will be conflicts and arabs will stand up and. say with certainty and this will cause. wars will begin between the groups. thank you very much whether or not washington decides to contingent of u.s. troops in iraq the kurds have a historic opportunity in their trials to ourselves term and nothing in their history suggests that they will be deterred from pursuing a bid for statehood. for cross-talk r t. ok she was in in washington if i can go to you first here as we discerned that report given the circumstances of the withdrawal of the american withdrawal from iraq and what we call the arab spring here what is stopping the kurds from really going for an independent state something that they have strived for for a very long time now and the circumstances to do that are probably better now than

ever before what's stopping them. thank you for giving the opportunity to be under show i think there are an array of reasons that starts to emerge from becoming an independent states economic and political geopolitical and and it's not there's not one single reason that says this is that they're wondering is and i think the invasion has helped the kurds have paid better. foot step in the political spectrum of the middle east however it hasn't evolved into something that could be the seeds of a state and let's not forget that. the home there inside of the kurdistan region is not yet suitable and ready for a statehood there is a separation there is hope there is and work towards that. all the political

pragmatists the leaders know that. declaring a state right now is not the ultimate. solution to the case that's right clinching too bad that's why they're. the most active negotiators and separate issues that are. infesting baghdad in terms of political process and government formation and security so the kurds for now are considering themselves part of iraq but not for you but let's let speed up to the withdrawal of the of the us forces going in if i can go to you i mean there's a nice saying the appetite comes with the eating and once the americans do leave to what degree i mean they're keeping something on the ground most likely irrespective what people white house says or the pentagon says but i mean there's a historic moment right here and we all know that iraq is in political deadlock right now the kurds are kingmakers and if this goes on for much longer the kurds

will say you know go ahead guys i mean you figured out we've got oil we have we have unity for the most part in and the lands of the kurds i mean they have a lot of cards to play right now and i'd like to throw in the arab spring in the background about self-determination and and creating a better civil society did they have a lot going for them go ahead. the kurdistan regional government is a very secure region it's the best organized part of iraq and it's very important to understand that the kurdish leadership is not planning a bid for independence even if it gets excellent opportunities and that's because kurds know historically that if they seek independence that will invite the negative intervention of the neighboring powers in particular turkey and iran by contrast at this moment the kurds have the ability to reshape iraq they more or less designed its constitution in conjunction with its partners so they have every

opportunity to make their influence felt indeed with the departure of the americans they will be only part of iraq that is reliably pro-american so i would expect them to use their leverage to ensure that there will be american troops patrolling the disputed territories they'll be working hard to ensure that their recent successful they taunt with the government of turkey continues and they continue to attract inward investment if the kurds were to take the risk of going for independence that might damage all of the successful inward investment they've made they would also mean that they'd have to devote almost the entirety of their resources to military needs and there they don't want to do that they've come a long way in the last decade they don't want to lose the gains of that last decade family if i can go to you we heard the word leverage and i think that's probably the most important word when we look at the withdrawal of american troops i mean how much can the kurds get from baghdad ok i mean we they were everyone's watching each other across the really the so-called border and we're

a bit heard the kurdish lands been relatively quiet to say considering the violence since two thousand and three what can they get from baghdad and how resistance is bad baghdad going to be and when getting anything. well you say baghdad i mean the iraqi president is kurdish. representatives of the two leading care dish. governing parties leading polls including the foreign minister and so on so they have pretty substantial influence in n. baghdad and generally iraqi policies the major ones have been decided with the consent or support of the kurdish leadership probably here to kenyan of kurdistan and the k d p the kurdistan democratic party. at this point i would like to take issue with one or two of the premises is both an interruption and maybe politically in what brendan are saying as if there is

a kind of i knew more city or a big historical clash between the kurdish people and our people i think this is a myth we've had the oppressive regimes like saddam's regime attacking the care dish people but there hasn't been this historic people against people tensions or quarters or fights historically in iraq in fact the very people a very few people seem to know that there are about ten million kurdish people impacted at the capital this is more than more cares than cares in any kurdish about is that is true. i say i think i think you know and some of the no no it is not nonsense and me because the kurdish people where the character should be a total advice because i know i know you would like you would like to divide the iraqi people like you're attempting just now but if you let me finish a lot of care dish people are entitled mad it with our arabs with torkel mons and

so on and there isn't this rigid ethnic demarcation like you might want to pretend brendan historically the kurdish on our keep. puls how. common interests joint struggles against colonial longing are i thought of democracy for freedom so so you have the same time to look at this sami but the same time in the aspirations of the kurds have been always slowed down if not punished when they do have aspirations brandon you want to reply to that go ahead. i certainly do i think it's it is true that kurds and arabs contain large numbers of people willing to make iraq work as a federation but it is absolute nonsense to deny the historical animosities between arabs and kurds and to deny that successive arab regimes carried out genocide as an expulsion and course of assimilation against garge denied house of kurds i measure the reasons out. of your regime use your past and united not in that i'd

actually i let you speak i'd like you to get i'd like you to give me the opportunity to write i distort it is a myth don't discourage the life isn't it i'm not distorting what you said i listen carefully. people think that saddam's regime is that there was a large we let me finish with you that we let me finish please people think wrongly that there's a large kurdish population in baghdad there used to be the faily kurds were expelled from baghdad by saddam's regime if we look at the broken up kurdish parties in and in federal elections it is a minuscule vote soprano i'm afraid i'm going to be in iraq she will make sure we come back from the break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the current state with working.

on. the a. lose. lose. the just so. the costs. wealthy british scientists. tightly.

market why not a single. find out what's really happening to the global economy list might cause or there are no holds barred the global financial headlines to cause a report on are. the folks who cooling news the latest in science tends to come from around the bush. the future coverage. if you. still. want to. welcome back to crossfire i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're talking about the fate of the kurds as the u.s. plans its withdrawal from iraq plus. a. story.

ok granting that you know i'd like you to finish up what you were saying before the break here i mean there has been historically a lot of animosity i'd like you know my degree or another we can discuss in this program go right ahead. well what i think is important is to look forward and there are two core difficulties in relations between arabs and kurds as we go forward the first is that many arab politicians in baghdad wish to recentre lies iraq in particular the control over natural resources and that's in flats contradiction with the constitution of iraq of two thousand and five which was deliberately designed to ensure that each part of iraq out of provinces as well as kurdish majority areas could govern themselves and develop themselves if that program of the constitution is implemented i think all of the historical animosities between kurds and arabs can become the second difficulty arises as as was indicated in your

program in the areas of the disputed territories or those territories are disputed precisely because of past programs of ethnic expulsion carried out largely by saddam's regime but also by previous arab governments not everything done bad by arabs historically was done by saddam or those who were involved as well so the key thing that international policy makers and domestic iraqi citizens have to be focused on is how to ensure those two particular disputes over natural resources and over disputed territories don't generate further conflict between kurds and arabs i think that can. be done because history has to follow the constitution jump in a way to fold them and so it's going to is not only to not only not only to implement article one forty but to encourage proper power sharing arrangements with encourage coparent power sharing arrangements that would improve the narratives birds on the question all share power in this particular area all right sami real quick and then we'll get reaction in go ahead sure sure i think brandon again is pledging this

dish animosity better is no animosity between the kurdish and how to people that we've had the oppressive regimes specialist. by the way let you have brendan this regime killed more arabs than kurds. information and the ninety ninety one uprising chemical weapons and so on he's killed more arabs than care so to pretend that this was an arab book government just killing kurds is absolutely historically in quebec and that applies to all it is a sitting president president hugo freedom was denied that freedom was denied us and freedom was denied on all the other gentlemen here let me just say here let's go to washington go ahead throw in your two cents are going to be very patient. i think i think it's not over inflated to to mention the only my city among kurds and arabs has occurred as i have lived in kurdistan during the invasion i have covered

the invasion i have since those things myself it is a historical. even if you don't want to call it only my city disagreement and it disliking. it at least from the first words the arabs and of course it's shared by the arabs in a great deal. but they both know the kurds and the arabs supposed to know that they are forced to live in iraq the arabs claim that the rock is the. us it's a member of the arab league the kurds believe every individual of them believe that they are forced to be part of that country and that has created any nasty and. very naive and simple to assume that just because regime like saddam's regime or any previous regimes have. have. caused

destruction and killing of the kurds does not in the minds of the public. give. does not release the general arab population of iraq from those acts so people do not think that the. abstract entities that came from the sky and did those people do believe that these lands where you and i came back to let's let's let's move forward to the end of this year brandon and i do go to you here to see if there are elements of that within the pentagon and maybe even the white house and in baghdad that would use the excuse of possible tension between arabs and kurds to maintain an american presence a larger presence than what the americans agreed to a few years ago i mean we can't leave now because we'll be a civil war. i think it won't be an excuse i think there will be a strong request from the government of the kurdistan region together with some

responsible arab politicians in baghdad for there to be a continuing arab and sari a continuing american presence mediating between the arab majority army in the south and the forces of the kurdish peshmerga in the north and i think that that will be essential to ensure that there's a stable resolution of the disputed territories if there's an american in a responsible american departure without the issue of the disputed territories having been resolved then there's a high likelihood of renewed conflict even if those responsible leadership on each side because actions on the ground in particular the actions of sunni arab insurgents might destabilize matters so there's a real risk and it will be an excuse the americans would be absolutely delighted to get completely out of iraq barack obama would be like it because it will look good for his election campaign so the so the idea that the americans are maneuvering in order to stay in iraq and simply misplaced. do you think that i sleep here is a serious speed ahead. for me to go to washington is there.

i think i think the. leaving of the americans and keeping some forces in there to to to hold people to put a stop to a civil war will repeat the same scenario of u.s. troops remaining in korea this way there's no there's not going to be an end to this. and this bomb to explode this this disputed territories the article one hundred forty of the constitution having not been implemented yet those territories have not issues to their disagreements on those issues have not been resolved yet will only be delayed but not solved unless. those are this article is implemented those territories will be returned to people who own the ownership their original

claim of those things and these things have not been happening due to political disagreement in baghdad and the arabs do not want this because they already have gained territory there's very very clear things that we know that. during saddam's time that can be resolved for example the town of. my pool which is a major kurdish town has been he cast from kirkuk and next to crete which is a majority of the in province which is a majority arab province these these shiftings and playings. have created those issues that need to be resolved because if cook is returned to you nineteen fifty eight the model of your being whatever. admission of unit of co cook province at the time was things will change there will then be a majority arab in the province as it is now and therefore things will change if

the referendum is held is a. little different i got to sami sami what business what business does the united states and its allies have in mediating this conflict between the kurds or potential conflict when you put it that way between the kurds and the arabs in iraq i mean is it is time for the united states and its allies to get out and let people on the ground figure out what is best for them because occupation. genders animosity we've seen that in iraq we've seen that in afghanistan we're seeing it possibly in libya. i think you have a head to the nail on the head there most of iraq's problems today i'm an eighteen from the continued occupation of iraq and the sooner the u.s. led forces leave the better with the tens of thousands of mercenaries of blackwater and the like they brought with them they are the poison of in the middle of iraqi society and i think a lot of these problems can be resolved and i don't share the opinions of your

other two guests with your respect to them that there is this enormous animosity between the people of iraq and the kurdish people and let me add this at this particular moment the clear my principle stand towards the kurdish people because the dish people deserve the right to self-determination and this i believe in very very strongly this right to self dinner determination cannot come under occupation it's can only come within a democratic iraq where they care dish people will enjoy their right to self-determination this is something not even the kurdish leaders are daring to pronounce and to implement because that listening to washington that throwing all their eggs into the putting all their eggs in the washington basket instead of building. good relations with the peoples of the region with the people of turkey people of iran people of iraq against repressive regimes the future of the kurdish

people is with the peoples of the region you cannot move that the the mountains the great mountains of course it is time to washington the people of the region have to resolve their own problems without occupations of military interventions the united states is applying enormous pressure on the iraqi government to maintain their forces by didn't meet their visit american generals made statements u.s. defense secretary made a visit there are all trying to hide behind this week iraqi. regime tied to washington protected by washington they're trying to hide behind it and say ask us to stay us because to say this is what's up i think every time the other friends there are listening. in the last word this program here we've heard the term the arab spring is there such a thing as the kurds spring there was a kurdish. friendship. there there is an arab

spring and it's a very welcome there has been already a kurdish spring there is no occupation of the kurdistan region there are no american american soldiers present there and the american cause i'm so sad is that i was thrilled shouldn't stand by because it's about a regional government there is there is corruption throughout our of iraq on a much greater scale than the kurdistan region i think what you call those recently unfortunately is old fashioned arab nationalists propaganda and what is vital to understand is that iraq has just gone through an absolutely terrific intra arab civil war that was not primarily caused by the american occupation it was cause i don't mean to say just journalism in a very serious question is waste of time or many thanks and my guess would be new york and washington and london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time and remember.

you can.