she still stories still are told nato and russia reach an agreement on a missile defense shield for europe after talks install change as the alliance refuses moscow's calls for legal guarantees that its proposed system won't tolerate russian territory. general ransom not to choose a genset from the new crimes court for protesting at the judge in the hague and is a not guilty plea on his behalf to chandra charges of genocide and crimes against humanity and while some serbs accuse the tribunal of one sided justice and its causes but it's. time to fire obama's plans to pull out troops from afghanistan problems at time this time from opponents who say it's too much of

a military risk as time goes on the time spent. as the headlines up next in cross talk about his guys discuss what the u.s. withdrawal might mean for the kurdish community in iraq and whether fears of separatism an ethnic clashes might persuade them are going to stay. you can still. live. welcome to crossfire crime peter lavelle as the u.s. starts its military withdrawal from iraq what does fate hold for the kurds his post invasion iraqi administratively and democratically strong enough to keep the country intact and if the kurds strive towards an independent state what is stopping. you can. start.

to cross-talk the fate of the kurds i'm joined by special i was in washington he's an independent journalist in new york we cross to brendan o'leary he is the lauder professor of political science at the university of pennsylvania and his most recent book is how to get out of iraq with the integrity and in london we have sami ramadani he's a senior lecturer in sociology at london metropolitan university all right gentlemen this is cross talk that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first let's take a look at a report about the future facing the kurds following the u.s. withdrawal from iraq. eight years after the u.s. led invasion of iraq washington is negotiating its withdrawal from this one torn country as forty six thousand u.s. troops prepare to leave iraq as soon tauriel integrity and fragile democracy are threatened by the brewing animosity between arabs and kurds i thought here that has made questionable the plan of a complete pullout i believe that we should take whatever steps are necessary to make sure that we protect whatever progress we have made there. largely

marginalized by iraqi arabs the kurdish minority has long since been vying for a form of independence which given the sweep of the arab spring could now be more possible than ever and if established kurdish state could potentially entailed the breakup of iraq as well as changing the border of neighboring syria turkey and iran all home to significant kurdish minorities and no other place in iraq symbolizes the tension separating baghdad and kurdish leaders more than the province of kirk a source of some twenty percent of iraq's oil reserves who has no official legal status iraqi arabs turkmens and kurds who will lead claims to it under article one forty of the iraqi constitution the dispute over what is supposed to be resolved with a referendum we saw no reason why there should be any more. implementation of article one for three. i think when that happens even those other nationalities

living in those areas would have a better chance of. having a better security and those areas too because now it's like a great area no one has full responsibility of doing what is best for the people however the wood has been continuously delayed due to political discord and violence in the region and to date neither arab and the kurdish leaders have been willing to yield their rights to the land currently an entire us division is deployed to force security in the disputed region and come december thirty first the. u.s. withdrawal could trigger a bloody conflict. in terms of security when the us leaves there will be no independent security force right now the security is from only the kurdish side of the city this is the truth when the us leaves things will get worse it will be conflicts arabs will stand. and this will. worsen will begin to sweep the ethnic group. thank you very much whether or not

washington decides to leave behind a contingent of u.s. troops in iraq the kurds have a historic opportunity in their trials towards some term and nothing in their history suggests that they will be deterred from pursuing a bid for statehood. for crosstalk. ok pace wasn't in washington if i can go to you first here as we discerned that report given the circumstances of the withdrawal of the american withdrawal from iraq and what we call the arab spring here what is stopping the kurds from really going for an independent state something that they have strived for for a very long time now and the circumstances to do that are probably better now than ever before what's stopping them. thank you for giving the approach and you can be on show i think there are a myriad of reasons that starts to purge from declaring independence states

economic and political geopolitical and and there's not there's not one single reason that says this is the one reason i think the invasion has helped the kurds have a better. foot step in the political spectrum of the middle east however it hasn't evolved into something that could be the seeds of a state and let's not forget that there the home page inside of the kurdistan region is not yet suitable and ready for it stated there is a separation there is hope there is room and work towards it. all the political pragmatists the leaders know that. declaring a state right now is not the ultimate. solution to the case that's why they're clinching to baghdad that's why they're. the most

active negotiators in issues that are. infesting baghdad in terms of political. process and government formation and security so the kurds for now are considering themselves part of iraq but not for long i mean let's beat up to the withdrawal of the of the us forces going in if i can go to you i mean there's a nice saying the appetite comes with eating and once the americans do leave to what degree i mean no keeping something on the ground most likely irrespective what people white house says or the pentagon says but i mean there's a historic moment right here and we all know that iraq is in political deadlock right now the kurds are kingmakers and if this goes on for much longer the kurds will say you know go ahead guys i mean you figured out we've got oil we have we have unity for the most part in and the lands of the kurds i mean they have a lot of cards to play right now and i'd like to throw in the arab spring in the

background about self-determination and and creating a better civil society there because they had a lot going for them go ahead. the kurdistan regional government is a very secure region it's the best organized part of iraq and it's very important to understand that the kurdish leadership is not planning a bid for independence even if it gets excellent opportunities and that's because kurds know historically that if they seek independence that will invite the negative intervention of the neighboring powers in particular turkey and iran by contrast at this moment the kurds have the ability to reshape iraq they more or less designed its constitution in conjunction with its with shiite partners so they have every opportunity to make their influence felt indeed with the departure of the americans they will be only part of iraq that is reliably pro-american so i would expect them to use their leverage to ensure that there will be american troops patrolling the disputed territories they'll be working hard to ensure that

their recent successful detente with the government of turkey continues and they continue to attract inward investment if the kurds were to take the risk of going for independence that might damage all of the successful inward investment they made it would also mean that they'd have to devote almost the entirety of their resources to military needs and there they don't want to do that they've come a long way in the last decade they don't want to lose the gains of that last decade family of angry and we heard the word leverage and i think that's probably the most important word when we look at it we drove american troops i mean how much can the kurds get from baghdad ok i mean we meet everyone's watching each other across the the the so-called border where the kurds the kurdish lands been relatively quiet could sit considering the violence since two thousand and three what can they get from baghdad and how resistance is bad baghdad going to be and when getting anything. well you say baghdad i mean the iraqi president care dish.

representatives of the two leading care dish. governing party's leading polls including the foreign minister and so on so they have a pretty substantial influence in n. baghdad and generally iraqi policies the major ones have been decided with the consent or support of the kurdish leadership of the union of kurdistan and the k d p the kurdistan democratic party. at this point i would like to take issue with one or two of the premise is both an interruption and maybe critically in what brendan are saying as if there is a kind of i knew more city or a big historical clash between the care dish people and our people and i think this is a myth we've had oppressive regimes like saddam's regime attacking the kurdish people

but there hasn't been this historic people against people who tensions or or quarrels or fights historically in iraq in fact very people a very few people seem to know that there are about ten million kurdish people impacted at the capital this is more than the more cares that cares in any kurdish area that is that is true. i would say i think i think you know some of the no no i think is not nonsense to me because the kurdish people are where the character should be i pull it by saying the cards i know are i know you would like you would like to divide the iraqi people like you're attempting just now but if you let me finish a lot of care dish people out enter made it without arabs with two commands and so on and there isn't this rigid ethnic demarcation like you might want to pretend brendan historically the kurdish an arab people. how common interests

joint struggles against colonial i'm going all right for democracy for freedom so so you're. saying time to look this is the same time we do the aspirations of the kurds have been always slowed down if not punished when they do have aspirations granted you want to reply to that go ahead. i certainly do i think it's it is true that kurds and arabs contain large numbers of people willing to make iraq work as a federation but it is absolute nonsense to deny the historical animosities between arabs and kurds and to deny that successive arab regimes carried out genocide as make expulsion and coercive assimilation against large denied hours of current measure the real reason south but i don't get the idea you don't really know. the past and you might not think that i'd actually i let you speak i'd like you to get i'd like you to give me the opportunity or the time to start my business don't discourage the life. i'm not distorting what you said i listened carefully. people

think outside the boundaries. there was a large x. will you let me finish will you that we let me finish please people think wrongly that there's a large kurdish population in baghdad there used to be the fairly kurds were expelled from baghdad by saddam's regime if we look at a vote in our kurdish parties in may and in federal elections it is a minuscule vote surprising i'm afraid i'm going to be rather she'll let you finish and we come back from the break in this after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the current state with r.t. . if you want to. for the full story we've gotten from. the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers on r.t.e. . twenty years ago the largest country in the it's probably

surpluses of. the bulge in the book the genuine where did it take the. money. the elite. the little. symbol. pin the be. easy.

would be soon which brightened a few. songs from fans to the pressure to see. who threw stones on team dot com. can. still. come up. to come up. welcome back to rostock on peter lavelle to remind you we're talking about the fate of the kurds as the us plans its withdrawal from iraq plum cake. story. ok brennan that i'd like you to finish up what you were saying before

the break i mean there has been historically a lot of animosity i'd like your high degree or another we can discuss in this program go right ahead. but what i think is important is to look forward and there are two core difficulties in relations between arabs and kurds as we go forward the first is that many arab politicians in baghdad wish to recentre lies iraq in particular the control over natural resources and that's in flat contradiction with the constitution of iraq of two thousand and five which was deliberately designed to ensure that each part of iraq are of provinces as well as kurdish majority areas could govern themselves and develop themselves if that program of the constitution is implemented i think all of the historical animosities between kurds and arabs can be current the second difficulty arises as as was indicated in your program in the areas of the disputed territories or those territories are disputed precisely

because of past programs of ethnic expulsion carried out largely by saddam's regime but also by previous arab governments not everything done bad by arabs historically was done by saddam or those who were involved as well so the key thing that international policy makers and domestic iraqi citizens have to be focused on is how to ensure those two particular disputes over natural resources and over it is treated territories joan chen or a further conflict between kurds and arabs and i think that can. be done because he has to it is to follow the constitution from here the way to call them answers when it is not only to not only not only to implement article one forty but to encourage proper power sharing arrangements within cricket government. that will bring in arabs kurds in the christian minorities all share power in this particular area all right sami real quick and then we're going to watch and go ahead sure sure i think a grand and again is approaching this arab cared to show animosity better is no

animosity between the kurdish an arab peoples that we've had the oppressive regimes specialist radiance and by the way led to brandon this regime killed more arabs than kurds. information and the ninety ninety one uprising and in the chemical weapons and so on he has killed more arabs than kerry so to pretend that this was an arab book government just killing kurds is absolutely historically in quebec and that applies to all he's a sitting president president he's got freedom was denied us free them was denied us freedom was denied i don't know all the other gentlemen here let me just say here let's go to washington go ahead throw in your two cents you're going to be very patient. i think i think it's not over inflated to mention the name our city among kurds and arabs and has occurred as i have lived in kurdistan during the invasion i have covered the invasion i have sensed those

things myself it is a historical. even if you don't want to call it anymore disagreement at this liking . at least from the curse towards the arabs and of course it's shared by the arabs who don't create a deal. but they both know the kurds and the arabs supposed to know that they are forced to live in iraq the arabs claim that iraq is the person it's a member of the arab league the kurds believe every individual of them believe that they are forced to be a part of that country and dad has created any mass and it's naive and simple to assume that just because regime like saddam's regime or any of the previous regimes have have have. caused destruction and killing of the kurds there is not in the minds of the public. give

. it does not release the general arab population of iraq from those acts so people do not think that the. abstract entities that came from the sky and did those i mean most people do believe that these lands where you and i are up so ok ok let's let's let's move forward today to the end of this year brandon i like to go to you here so you see that there are elements of that within the pentagon and maybe even the white house and in baghdad that would use the excuse of possible tension between arabs and kurds to maine maintain a an american presence a larger presence than what the americans agreed to a few years ago meaning we can't leave now because will be a civil war. i think it won't be an excuse i think there will be a strong request from the government of the kurdistan region together with some responsible arab politicians in baghdad for there to be a continuing arab and sari

a continuing american presence mediating between the arab majority army in the south and the forces of the kurdish peshmerga in the north and i think that that will be essential to ensure that there's a stable resolution of the disputed territories if there's an american in a responsible american departure without the issue of the disputed territories having been resolved then there's a high likelihood of renewed conflict even if those responsible leadership on each side because actions on the ground in particular the actions of sunni arab insurgents might destabilize matters so there's a real risk and it will be an excuse the americans will be absolutely delighted to get completely out of iraq barack obama would be like it because it will look good for his election campaign so the idea that the americans are maneuvering in order to stay in iraq is simply misplaced there are two things i see there is a serious artist peter had a larger hand i occasionally created a larger game here. i think i think the the. the

leaving of the americans and keeping some forces in there to to to hold put a put a stop to a civil war will repeat the same scenario of u.s. troops remaining in korea up to this day there's no there's not going to be an end to it is. this bomb to explode this has disputed territories the article one hundred forty of the constitution having not been implemented yet those territories have not issues to their disagreements on those issues have not been resolved will only be delayed but not solved unless those. this article is implemented those territories will be returned to people who own the ownership there is no claim of those things and these things have not been happening due to

political disagreement in baghdad and the arabs do not want this because they already have gained territory there is very very clear things that we know that. during saddam's time there can be results for example the town of those who are mad to which is a major kurdish town has been he passed from kirkuk and ecstatically it which is a majority in province which is a majority arab province these these shiftings and claims. have created those issues that need to be resolved because if cook is returned to nine hundred fifty eight the margraf you have in whatever. administrative unit of cook province at the time was things will change there wouldn't be a majority arab in the province as it is now and there therefore things will change if the referendum is held in the problems of our different that are going to sammy

sammy what business what business does the united states and its allies have in mediating this conflict between the kurds or potential conflict when you put it that way between the kurds and the arabs in iraq i mean is it is time for the united states and its allies to get out and let the people on the ground figure out what is best for them because our q patient. gender is animosity we've seen that in iraq we've seen that in afghanistan we're seeing it possibly in libya. i think the head the nail on the head there most of iraq's problems today i'm an eighteen from the continued occupation of iraq and the sooner the u.s. led forces leave the better with the tens of thousands of mercenaries of blackwater and the like they brought with them they are the poison of in the middle of iraqi society and i think a lot of these problems can be resolved and i don't share the opinions of your other guests with respect to them that there is this enormous animosity between the

arab people of iraq and the kurdish people and let me add this at this particular moment declared my principle stand towards the kurdish people the care dish people deserve the right to self-determination and this i believe in very very strongly this right to self dinner determination cannot come under occupation it can only come within a democratic iraq where they care dish people will enjoy their right to self-determination this is something not even the kurdish leaders are daring to pronounce and to implement because that listening to washington that throwing all their eggs into the putting all their eggs in the washington basket instead of building. good relations with the peoples of the region with the people of turkey people of iran people of iraq against repressive regimes the future of the kurdish people is with the peoples of the region you cannot move to the mountains the greats mountains of

course at this time to washington the people of the region have to resolve their own problems without occupations of military interventions the united states is applying enormous pressure on the iraqi government to maintain their forces by been made to visit american generals made statements the u.s. defense secretary made the visit they are all trying to hide behind this week iraqi . regime type two washington protected by washington that tried to hide behind it and say ask us to stay i ask us to say this is what's happening and i did every time the other friends in their office were raised in cambridge in the last words this program here we've heard the term the arab spring is there such a thing as the kurds spring there was a. spread then go ahead. there have there is an arab spring and it's a very welcomed there has been already a kurdish spring there is no occupation of the kurdistan region there are no

american american soldiers present player and he american presence under that his administration is run by a kurdistan regional government there is there is corruption throughout out of iraq on a much greater scale than the kurdistan region i think what you've heard recently unfortunately is old fashioned arab nationalist propaganda and what is likely to understand is that iraq has just gone through an absolutely terrific hour of civil war that was not primarily kohls by an american occupation it was cold but i don't mean this is just the right journalism in a very sad discussion where entire many thanks of my guest today in new york and washington and london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember crosstalk we'll. see. if.

it's been in the year in iraq is military journalist. we still in the u.s. . there's going to waste time tryna get killed. along the length of the life of. the t.v. twenty seven days publicizing the invite to the home leads me to start a debate have a dialogue. in the swill. download

the official cation chobani phone the i pod touch from the i choose ops to. go. video on demand all season long road comes and says feeds now in the palm of your. question on the call. if. the if the if. morning's today says once again flared up please.