strips are gold from the realms. of the future. and. also he's told stories nature to reach any agreement about a missile defense shield for your during this such as some of the guidelines giving no legal guarantees its proposed systems on target russian territory. and american military base in the north of england stonewalls type of missile system is the scene of crash as bad he's answered it says more and more secret u.s. facilities particles but what. am general much cannot issues a gentility yugoslav crimes tribunal courtroom in the hague for protests demolishing his own choice of the door rather than a court appointed one carriage and stood at the wall no skill chiefly on behalf of

the accused over genocide charges and alleged crimes against humanity during the bosnian war in the nineteenth you are next in cross talk about his guest discuss will the u.s. withdrawal might mean for the kurdish community in iraq and what it fears of separation is and ethnic clashes persuade the americans to stay. hungry for the full story we've got to say the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with the news makers who. can. still. live. welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle as the u.s. starts its military withdrawal from iraq what does fate hold for the kurds is posting beige an iraqi administrative leave and democratically strong enough to keep the country intact and if the kurds strive towards an independent state what

is stopping. you can. still. get cross-talk the fate of the kurds i'm joined by posh was faisal law in washington he's an independent journalist in new york we cross to brendan o'leary he is the louder professor of political science at the university of pennsylvania and his most recent book is how to get out of iraq with the integrity and in london we have sami ramadani he's a senior lecturer in sociology at london metropolitan university all right gentlemen this is cross talk that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first let's take a look at a report about the future facing the kurds following the u.s. withdrawal from iraq. eight years after the u.s. led invasion of iraq washington is negotiating its withdrawal from this war torn country as forty six thousand u.s. troops prepare to leave iraq a serious moral integrity and fragile democracy are threatened by the brewing

animosity between arabs and kurds i thought and that has made questionable the plan of a complete pullout i believe that we should take whatever steps are necessary to make sure that we protect whatever progress we have made better. largely marginalized by iraqi arabs the kurdish minority has long since been vying for a form of independence which given the sweep of the arab spring could now be more possible than ever and if established kurdish state could potentially entailed the breakup of iraq as well as changing the border of neighboring syria turkey and iran oh home to significant kurdish minorities and no other place in iraq symbolizes the tension separating baghdad and kurdish leaders more than the province of kirk a source of some twenty percent of iraq's oil reserves who has no official legal status iraqi arabs turkmens and kurds who will leave claims to it under article one forty of the iraqi constitution the dispute over is supposed to be resolved with a referendum we saw no reason why there should be any more.

implementation of article one for three. i think when that happens even those other nationalities living in those areas would have a better chance of. having a better security in those areas so because now it's like a great area no one has full responsibility of doing what is best for the people however the good has been continuously delayed due to political discord and violence in the region and today the arab and their kurdish leaders have been willing to yield their rights to the land currently and the entire u.s. division is deployed to for security in the disputed region and come just number thirty first the. u.s. withdrawal could trigger a bloody conflict. in terms of security when the us leaves there will be no independent security force right now the security is from only the kurdish side of the city this is the truth when the us leaves things will get worse there will be

conflicts and arabs will stand for it we should say with turkey and this will. hurt but wars will begin between the groups. thank you very much whether or not washington decides that contingent of u.s. troops in iraq the kurds have a historic opportunity in their tries to come to terms and nothing in their history suggests that they will be deterred from pursuing a big for state. ok this was an end washington if i can go to you first here as we discerned that report given the circumstances of the withdrawal of the american withdrawal from iraq and what we call the arab spring here what is stopping the kurds from really going for an independent state something that they have strived for for a very long time now and the circumstances to do that are probably better now than ever before what's stopping them. thank you for giving the opportunity to be on

show i think there are a of reasons that starts the kurds from declaring independence states economical political geopolitical and and there's not there's not one single reason that says this is the one reason i think the invasion has helped the kurds have a better. foot step in the political spectrum of the middle east however it hasn't evolved into something that could be the seeds of a state and let's not forget that there the home inside of the kurdistan region is not yet suitable and ready for its stated there is a separation there is hope there is and work towards it. all the political

pragmatists the leaders know that. the clearing of state right now is not the ultimate. solution to the case that's why clinton took baghdad that's why they're. the most active negotiators and settle the issues that are. infesting baghdad in terms of political process and government formation and security so the kurds for now are considering themselves part of iraq but not for long let's let's speak to the withdrawal of the of the u.s. forces when and if i can go to you i mean there's a nice thing the appetite comes with the eating and once the americans do leave to what degree i mean they're keeping something on the ground most likely irrespective what people white house says are the pentagon says but i mean there's a historic moment right here and we all know that the iraqis in political deadlock right now the kurds are king makers and if this goes on for much longer the kurds

will say you know go ahead guys i mean you figured out we've got oil we have we have unity for the most part in and the lands of the kurds i mean they have a lot of cards to play right now and i'd like to throw in the arab spring in the background about self-determination and and creating a better civil society there they have a lot going for them go ahead. the kurdistan regional government is a very secure region it's the best organized part of iraq and it's very important to understand that the kurdish leadership is not planning a bid for independence even if it gets excellent opportunities and that's because kurds know historically that if they seek independence that will invite the negative intervention of the neighboring powers in particular turkey and iran by contrast at this moment the kurds have the ability to reshape iraq they more or less designed its constitution in conjunction with its partners so they have every opportunity to make their influence felt indeed with the departure of the americans

they will be only part of iraq that is reliably pro-american so i would expect them to use their leverage to ensure that there will be american troops patrolling the disputed territories they'll be working hard to ensure that their recent successful detente with the government of turkey continues and they continue to attract inward investment if the kurds were to take the risk of going for independence that might damage all of the successful inward investment they made it would also mean that they'd have to devote almost the entirety of their resources to military needs and they know they don't want to do that they've come a long way in the last decade they don't want to lose the gains of that last decade so if i can go to you we heard the word leverage and i think that's probably the most important word when we look at the withdrawal of american troops i mean how much can the kurds get from baghdad ok i mean we meet everyone's watching each other across the. the so-called border where of the kurds the kurdish lands been

relatively quiet to see considering the violence since two thousand and three what can they get from baghdad and how resistance is bad baghdad going to be and when giving anything. well you say baghdad i mean the iraqi president the scared. representatives of the two leading care dish. governing parties leading polls including the foreign minister and so on so they have pretty substantial influence and baghdad and generally iraqi policies the major ones have been decided would be consent or support of the kurdish leadership poverty by three it took union of kurdistan and the k d p to kurdistan democratic party. at this point i would like to take issue with one or two of the premises both an introduction and maybe close it in what brendan are saying as if there is a kind of a new more city or

a big historical clash between the kurdish people and our people i think this is a myth we've had the oppressive regimes like saddam's regime attacking the care dish people but that hasn't been this historic of people against people tensions or quarrels or fights historically in iraq in fact very people and very few people seem to know about there are about ten million kurdish people in back into the capital this is more than the more cares that cares in any way that is that is true. i would say i think i think you is known some of the no no it is not nonsense to me because the kurdish people live where they care to pull it by saying the coyotes i not i know you would like you would like to divide the iraqi people like you're attempting just now but if you let me finish a lot of care dish people out entitlement it with arabs with total commands and so

on and there isn't this rigid ethnic demarcation like you might want to pretend brendan historically the kurdish an arab peace. pulls how. common interests joint struggles against colonial longing for democracy for freedom so so you look at the same time to look this is the same time it is the aspirations of the kurds have been always slowed down if not punished when they do have aspirations granted you want to reply to that go ahead. i certainly do i think it's it is true that kurds and arabs contain large numbers of people willing to make iraq work as a federation but it is absolute nonsense to deny the historical animosities between arabs and kurds and to deny that successive arab regimes carried out genocide ethnic expulsion and coercive assimilation against large denies occurred i've made the reasons out of it and yet. you mention the past and you must not think that i'd

actually i let you speak i'd like you to go i'd like you to give me the opportunity to start it is a myth underskirts a life it isn't it i'm not distorting what you said i listen carefully. people think that sat down three years ago was a large and we let me finish with you that we let me finish please people think wrongly that there's a large kurdish population in baghdad there used to be the faily kurds were expelled from baghdad by saddam's regime if we look at the vote now kurdish parties in in federal elections it is a minuscule vote and surprising i'm afraid i'm going to interrupt you will let you finish and we come back from the break in this after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the current state with thirty. eight.

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welcome back cross talk on people about true mind you were talking about the fate of the kurds as the u.s. plans its withdrawal from iraq plus. a. story. ok granting that you know i'd like you to finish up what you were saying before the break here i mean there has been historically a lot of animosity and i'd like you know my degree or another we can discuss in this program go right ahead. well what i think is important is to look forward and there are two core difficulties in relations between arabs and kurds as we go forward the first is that many arab politicians in baghdad wish to recentre lies iraq in particular the control over natural resources and that's in flat contradiction with the constitution of iraq of two thousand and five which was deliberately designed to ensure that each part of iraq our provinces as well as kurdish majority areas could govern themselves and develop themselves if that

program of the constitution is implemented i think all of the historical animosities between kurds and arabs can become the second difficulty arises as as was indicated in your program in the areas of the disputed territories or those territories are disputed precisely because of past programs of ethnic expulsion carried out largely by saddam's regime but also by previous arab governments not everything done bad by arabs historically was done by saddam and others who were involved as well so the key thing that international policymakers and domestic iraqi citizens have to be focused on is how to ensure those two particular disputes over natural resources and over disputed territories don't generate further conflict between kurds and arabs and i think that can. be done because history is to follow the constitution jump in the way the problem and solution is not only to not only not only to implement article one forty but to encourage proper power sharing arrangements we can curb government power sharing arrangements that would

include an arabs kurds and there i mean can the christian minorities all share power in this particular area all right sami real quick and then we're going to watch an ngo i am sure sure i think brendan again is peddling this arab care dish animosity better is no animosity between the kurdish and out of people that we've had the oppressive regimes specialist. family by the way let the brendan side down this regime killed more arabs than kurds. information and the nine hundred ninety one uprising and in the chemical weapons and so on he says killed more arabs than kerry so to pretend that this was an out of book government just killing kurds is absolutely historically in quebec and that applies to all is a sitting president president in together freedom was denied us freedom was denied us freedom was designed to be a gentlemen here let me just say here let's go to washington go ahead throw in your

two cents you're going to be very patient. i think i think it's not over inflated to mention the only my city among kurds and arabs and kurds as i have lived in kurdistan during the invasion i have coverage of the invasion i have since those things myself it is a historical. even if you don't want to call it only massive disagreement at this liking. it at least from the curse towards the arabs and of course it's shared by the arabs in a great deal. but they both know the kurds and the arabs both know that they are forced to live in iraq the arabs claim that iraq is the. number of the arab league the kurds believe every individual of them believe that they are forced to be a part of their country and that has created any mass and it's very naive and

simple to assume that just because regime like saddam's regime or any previous regimes have have have. caused destruction and killing of the kurds there is an art in the minds of the public. give. does not release the general arab population of iraq from those acts to people do not think that this. abstract entities that came from the sky and did those i mean most people do believe that these things weigh on that ira ok let's let's let's move forward today to the end of this year brandon like to go to you here so you see there are elements of that within the pentagon and maybe even the white house and in baghdad there would use the excuse of possible tension between arabs and kurds to maintain a an american presence a larger presence than what the americans agreed to a few years ago me we can't leave now because will be

a civil war. i think it won't be an excuse i think there will be a strong request from the government of the kurdistan region together with some responsible arab politicians in baghdad for there to be a continuing arab and continuing american presence mediating between the arab majority army in the south and the forces of the kurdish peshmerga in the north and i think that that will be essential to ensure that there's a stable resolution of the disputed territories if there's an american and irresponsible american departure without the issue of the disputed territories having been resolved then there's a high likelihood of renewed conflict even if those responsible leadership on each side because actions on the ground in particular the actions of sunni arab insurgents might destabilize matters so there's a real risk and it will be an excuse the americans will be absolutely delighted to get completely out of iraq barack obama would be like it because it will look good

for his election campaign so the so the idea that the americans are maneuvering in order to stay in iraq is simply misplaced. do you think honestly there is a serious scientists peter had. to go to washington in here. i think i think the the. the leaving of the americans and keeping some forces in there to to to hold to put a better start to a civil war will not repeat the same scenario of u.s. troops remaining in korea up to this day there's no there's not going to be an end to this. at this bomb to explode this this disputed territories the article one hundred forty of the constitution having not been implemented yet those territories have not issues to their disagreements on those issues have not been resolved yet will only be the lay but not solved unless. this article is

implemented those territories will be returned to people who own the ownership there is no claim of those things and these things have not been happening due to political disagreement in baghdad and the arabs do not want this because they already have gained territory that there is very very clear things that we know that. during saddam's time that can be resolved for example the town of those who are my pool which is a major kurdish town has been the cast from kirkuk and i next to declare it which is a majority of the in province which is a majority arab province these these shiftings and planes. have created those issues that need to be resolved because if cook is returned to the nine hundred fifty eight the margraf you are going to whatever. are going to give

you an it of coke or province at the time was things will change there wouldn't be a majority arab in the province as it is now and there therefore things will change if the referendum is held in the majority or a totally different i'm going to sami sami what business what business does the united states and its allies have in mediating this conflict between the kurds or potential conflict when you put it that way between the kurds and the arabs in iraq i mean is it is time for the united states and its allies to get out and let the people on the ground figure out what is best for them because our q patient. genders animosity we've seen that in iraq we've seen that in afghanistan we're seeing it possibly in libya. i think the head to the nail on the head there most of iraq's problems today emanating from the continued occupation of iraq and the sooner the u.s. led forces leave the factory with the tens of thousands of mercenaries of

blackwater and the like they brought with them they are the poison of in the middle of iraqi society and i think a lot of these problems can be resolved and i don't share the opinions of your other two guests with respect to them that there is this enormous animosity between the arab people of iraq and the kurdish people and let me out of this this particular moment the clear my principle stand towards the kurdish people we care dish people deserve the right to self-determination and this i believe in free a very strongly this right to self dinner determination cannot come under occupation it can only come within a democratic iraq where they care dish people will enjoy their right to self-determination this is something not even the kurdish leaders are daring to to pronounce and to implement because they are listening to washington that throwing all their eggs into the putting all their eggs in the washington basket instead of

building. good relations with the peoples of the region with the people of turkey people of iran people of iraq against repressive regimes the future of the kurdish people is with the peoples of the region you cannot move to the mountains that creates mountains of color to stand to washington the people of the region have to resolve their own problems without occupations of military interventions the united states is applying enormous pressure on the iraqi government to maintain their forces by been made to visit american generals made statements u.s. defense secretary made the visit they are all trying to hide behind this week iraqi . regime tied to washington protected by washington they're trying to hide behind it and say ask us to stay on to say this is what's happening they got every time the other friends in their office and raising a kid raised in the last word this program here we've heard the term the arab

spring is there such a thing as the kurds pray there was a cow to. spread in god's hands. there there is an arab spring and it's a very welcomed there has been already a kurdish spring there is no occupation of the kurdistan region there are no where near it american soldiers present there and he american presence on there that his administration is run by because this is an regional government there is there is corruption throughout our of iraq on a much greater scale than the kurdistan region i think what you've already sent me unfortunately is old fashioned arab nationalists propaganda and what is likely to understand is that iraq has just gone through an absolutely terrific in for arab civil war that was not primarily kohls by the american occupation it was called what i wanted to live in this nation are a journalism in a very serious question is there a certain amount of time or many thanks to my guest today in new york in washington and london and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t.

see you next time and remember crosstalk looks. like it's going to. spend in the year interactions military journalists. we still in the u.s. . there's going to be. tryna kill. the loop of the the life of. the thieves twenty seven days to

publicize it invited. by the who leads the people started of the. choosing this will be released. the simpsons. hungry for the full story we've got it first hand the biggest issues get the human voice face to face with the news makers. they faced this is not a probation but laurent. gbagbo forces that we should see everybody assured us a quick victory speech they have no idea about the hardships the face. plate one is the says it all took two minutes and for any army the life level you say to me is the most precious thing in the world.