i will do a quick recap of the headlines before going to crosstalk shining a light on the web of international terror publishes a declassified list of people and groups it says are financing extremism in the north caucasus. and of the eurozone take a turn for the worse as portugal's debt gets downgraded to junk status with panic spreading over where it'll all end. germany is reportedly planning to sell two hundred battle tanks to saudi arabia in a move sparking human rights concerns and condemned by opposition politicians as in the. us japan approves a second disaster recovery budget devastated communities call out for more

psychological support and fears grow over radiation levels in the area around fukushima. so my colleague bill daughter's here in half an hour's time but for now it's cross talk at this time of his guests will be looking to lebanon and whether the political and military group hezbollah is finding its reputation bolstered by being more closely linked to murder that's next you're not. alone in welcome to cross talk i'm peter lavelle the united nations tribunals has indicted some members of the lebanese shia movement hezbollah for the assassination of former lebanese prime minister is this special tribunal looking for justice or is it a tool attempting to take advantage of the country's deep political divisions and is lebanon the ultimate loser in this legal process.

crosstalk lebanon's trial i'm joined by hala job are in beirut she's a british lebanese journalist and author in jerusalem we cross all make seran he is a writer for commentary magazine and in cairo we have mona evades she is a professor at the american university in cairo ok folks cross talk was in effect but first let's have a show report on the tribunals findings to date. days ago a united nations tribunal delivered its long awaited indictment for hezbollah officials in lebanon accused of assassinating the country's former prime minister rafik hariri and a roadside bomb six years ago the indictments now risk reigniting sectarian violence in a country already rattled by decades of bloodshed. political establishment now faces a tricky challenge it needs to find a compromise that both honors its international obligations and prevents

a dangerous political split with a shiite has a belong with men currently enjoying great political clout and lebannon about this we are today in front of a new reality that request a wise approach putting the supreme interest of the country civil peace our national unity and knowing the truth above all concerns ever since it was opened in two thousand and nine the u.n. tribunal has divided the country along the sectarian lines for the sunni it has represented a chance of serving justice in the murder of a prominent sunni leader meanwhile hezbollah and its constituents have denounced the tribunal as an american israeli conspiracy to foment civil unrest and sabotage the group itself. we reject everything from the tribunals including its faults indictments and false judgments we will not allow it to drag lebanon toward strife or civil war. and earlier this year hezbollah brought down the u.s. backed government of late prime minister's son sought hariri when several of its

members withdrew from the cabinet and defiance of the investigation suspicion of involvement of the cess nation has also fallen on shiite syria one of hezbollah's the key allies and patrons on the syria to deny disconnection with the killing the accusation led to mass protests that ended syria's decades long military presence in the country syria like libya is part of an alliance and that the violence is very wide it begins in iran some elements in iraq government are part of the syrian regime has one law in lebanon on how mosques in gaza. some experts warn that if syria becomes too embroiled in the investigation and now break of sectarian violence in lebanon will be almost unavoidable and especially alarming prospect given the spike in the sunni shake clashes of the arab spring presently lebanese authorities have less than a month to execute their arrest warrants and hezbollah leader hassan nasrallah has sworn retribution for anyone who tries to do this. for cross talk our team.

ok to go to you first since you're in beirut this is been going on a long time and there's a number of people didn't accuse of this crime it happened in two thousand and five first it was being brain down the syrians a number of men were held they were late released then we hear it's hezbollah then people say it's around and then there are others that will say it's israel i mean is it gotten down to he said she said because there's a lot of people that contest a lot of the evidence in this case and there are many people expression in lebanon but don't trust the tribunals so who dunnit. that's the one million question dollar who who did what right from the beginning the investigation started on false grounds or wrong wrong on wrong grounds it was it was amazing when i was watching it to see for example at the time that within minutes within minutes of the of the explosion that killed former prime minister hariri the finger of accusation

immediately went to syria and not just from lebanon but you know within hours the entire world followed suit and without any evidence without any proof without any anything about a time you know syria was being prime's syria was looked at seen as the prime suspect and was accused of such and events followed after that and continued to be accused for many years and then suddenly out of the blue that changed and the finger was pointed at hezbollah. even in the early days you know before the tribunal was ever involved here. if you want the locals that were investigating the case i mean there were there was every there stampers were removed when they should have been ruled from the from the scene of from the scene of crime. it was not sealed off within seconds and then dealt with properly there's been a lot of you know information over the years about various pieces of evidence that

have appeared here there and other. that have not been looked into proper properly that were. you know missed investigated at the time and then and then looked at again so that the whole thing about the. former prime sort of. assassination has been marred with problems right from right from the minute. he died all right i'm referring to you in jerusalem is this a legal farsi speakers i've heard these arguments before that the evidence is so tainted now in fingers were pointed you know really i mean is this really just a different agenda play i guess really what i'm trying to say go ahead. well i mean we we should we should distinguish between a couple of things the first is just because it was obvious from the start what kind of coalition was behind the murder doesn't mean that once all of the evidence was assembled that that evidence was wrong we ate most crimes the vast majority of crimes we have a general sense of who done it and then the job of investigators and subsequently

the job of prosecutors is to work through the rule of law in order to demonstrate that the initial intuitions were correct so just because fingers were pointed early is no evidence that the fingers weren't pointed correctly and in fact one of the reasons that fingers are pointed so early is because there was plenty of motive for syria and for their allies in lebanon to commit to murder and another reason is that it bore the hallmarks of the kinds of hits that we know syrian security officials have committed against lebanon lebanese officials that attempted to resist syrian rule of lebanon so just because fingers were pointed early doesn't mean that they were wrong and it doesn't mean that there weren't good reasons for it now as to the substance of the investigation i think it's way too early to be talking about evidence that was tampered with evidence that was removed from the scene all of that is until it's presented a trial rumor margaret and the international community has called upon lebanon and

the new lebanese government under prime minister mikati to launch an investigation and then to serve the arrest warrants the questions of evidence are questions for trial not questions for rumor mongering and i'm confident that an international tribunal an international investigation from the netherlands which worked as long as it did has all of its ducks in a row and we'll see that the trial ever should to trial ever emerge now man i think one of them i think we all i mean there's i don't want to know there's been a lot of rumor mongering about this moment if i know do you trust this tribunals do i trust this. not true it is a no but i want to say here is one of the biggest mistakes was to remove said heavy duty as a prime minister he is the only one who could have juggled this whole thing in a balanced way because he might just you know not really pardon the s.s. ns but at least let go of this sort of thing which is very divisive and the

evidence could become a flash point down the road things become more dense so while it is gone in lebanon today that's i've been trying things can easily be exploited in a much more emotive way and we're already has these tensions between the sunnis and shias so i really have things that only one clue could have saved the day would have been prime ministers t.v. and not minister mikati it's a heavy burden on is you know how are you going to get a home here because it's very interesting point was brought up here and i think it's like the eight hundred pound gorilla in the corner all the time is that what do we juggle here what's most important stability or justice because we've gotten that dichotomy today on this program a few seconds ago stability versus justice and can we find a compromise between the both. he contacts should have justice you can't have justice without stability and on top of it if you want justice however going back

a few things i mean just because saad hariri is prime minister or not you know the case is still there whether his promise or not he was not removed his cabinet or his government was voted out of confidence as for the earlier guest who said you know about about the evidence that would all come through and obviously some of the toys and was being you know was being discovered over the years furthermore you know it's surprise that she says or he says that the finger you know pointed to syria meaning that because syria was in town and had other similar. incidents in lebanon that that means automatically it is it is it is the culprits but it but it traced to mention only fails to mention that israel and also there are there are some there are hidden mosques that are also the same as other attacks that were carried out in assassinations that were carried out in lebanon over the years by israel by israeli secret services almost that's just so i mean and the fact that there is a personal best interest in truth military isn't true that the fact that israel can

benefit out of this and was never even suspect is actually begs the question in lebanon where there are limits on ok. let's go to jerusalem there's going to charge me and you're only going to. go ahead let's let's let's let's deal with both of those charges very very early the first charge is that the attack or the hallmarks of them aside you know we did mossad home arts include confirmation of the killed lots of agents targeted a single person being clued specific kinds of and most when the mossad allegedly killed. mugabi in syria that was one person when they killed. when they did the blue here in dubai that was aimed at one person it's not the case now there are people who will say that the fact that this didn't bear the hallmarks of a messiah hit but rather that it bored. hallmarks of a syrian hit was them assad's attempt to make it look like syria did it ok listen

if the argument is that it's them aside when it looks like them aside and it's them aside when it doesn't look like them assad then that's not an argument that can be answered that's that is the essence of an unfalsifiable conspiracy theory the second charge which is that israel benefited is an absurd charges are all did not benefit by putting his bhalla by eliminating his ball as opposition and eliminating syria's up and eliminating syria's opposition now it could be the gentleman right here always you can join you later and it's just a short break want to assure break we'll continue our discussion on the u.n. tribunals for levanon state with r.t. . hungry for the full story we've got it first hand the biggest issues get a human voice face to face with

a news maker. twenty years ago the largest country in the world to certain places of books. must have been tremendous the beach began a journey. where did it take them. the close up team has been to the republic of north ascension where half of the area is occupied by nature preserve. this time our team goes to the region where men flock from all over the world to add a few centimeters to their self-confidence where young families are not hesitant about having a senior citizen in their family and where one man's utopia turns into a real village of the shining sun welcome to the cool gun region. russia blows up and.

gave it. to. its. welcome back to cross talk on peter lavelle to remind you we're talking about the un investigation of the killing of a former lebanese prime minister. thank you. steve.

ok mona i'd like to go to another issue that's being brought up in this program is that who benefits the most from this crime ok and there are so many different variations here some people say it's the israelis the americans out there say it's syria certain factions within lebanon of course has blah you know logically in your mind who benefited from this why it was done. those who benefited is those who are doing to want to see a stable lebanon and this has been going on for twenty five years and we don't know who it is but we know at the same time that there are people who are to be held responsible there until now we don't know who are the lead people who are just bunch of it is possible that there are other indictments identifying individuals in other countries and that's what we were trying to say earlier that there has been speculation that syria could be issued with men but it's not clear. that our speculation is that israel could be indicted also so nothing is clear but what i

want to say is that beyond lebanon and syria this is a global judicial process and doesn't only belong to levanon because if eleven of them does not address the for his wallet figures if they are indicted then tensions with the international community could arise and the action could escalate on a soft trajectory and then maybe and we could justify what hezbollah is saying that the tribunal is completely politicized instrument of the united states and israel but nobody wants to have a sectarian war in lebanon that's the main point here we should see also what is a little or subzero abs seems a little ok jump in there go ahead and we're going to move on to that seems a little bit. seems a little bit over the top to say that because lebanon doesn't meet its international obligations because hizbollah won't let it that that's evidence that it's an american israeli plot it seems like it's

a hizbollah plot to destabilize lebanon and to undermine the obligations that lebanon has been placed under by the international community there was a resolution the resolution passed there was a prosecutor there was an investigation the investigation concluded it's hardly fair to blame anyone other than the people stopping the investigation and let's not forget what we heard in the introduction which is that the last government was brought down over the government's refusal to disavow the hariri tribe you know the government was brought to hizbullah brought down the government because the government failed was meeting its international obligations it's a. lot of people would say this is part of a plan to destabilize lebanon and i think all of us would agree that this is what's going to happen why and he's behind it is totally different go ahead i'll go ahead i think i think i think as an observer as a journalist and i've been covering this country even though i mean i've been nice but i live abroad for many years and i and you know i can i can say that if

hezbollah or any other faction for that matter haven't wanted to destabilize the country they can has been one of the factors and i've been on so far and i'm sorry if people disagree but that's a fact on the ground that has made sure that this that this state you know that this country continues to be stabilized and refuses to participate in a sectarian war or conflict or to cause it is ation and lebanon. government lebanon should. you know how's that liberal government learned lebanon lebanon voted to vote of no confidence like any other country can because it does have some form of a democratic system and then go to the and then blew the government down and it's as simple as that you know and one who hadn't run and said he's let you know we're states army and you say has. brought down the government i mean when you look at any particular government has the lies about two members and that's not what i'm saying doesn't even and doesn't even how can a surety and

a government i say let us know it can't i just want to hear i'd like to go to mona there's there's one interesting scenario out there is that jim and i'm not going to point a finger at anyone right here but there are some people in the in the region and i'll be honest something about israel are very pleased to see that the lebanese are squabbling among themselves because they don't want to see another war with hezbollah because they hezbollah has been very very careful in expanding its influence in the country in maintaining its grassroots stronghold which it has i mean it does have a lot of popularity in lebanon that something that would bother the israelis and throw in the mix what's going on in syria. city has to hire as. you know in the international issues. and that's why she just said yes keeping a distance from the details of the indictment if you notice. so

the government is obviously. the most because clearly supporters will learn the current government so it is obviously president politically but it will try to be as far away from the discussion about the war on terrorists as possible syria says this is an internal lebanese issue and if any syrians and i did they would be dealt with internally that's what syria says now many other countries as you said may be . better. not unhappy. as well let me go let me go back to beirut let me go back to the would i was one of the thinking given this era that we live in now called the arab spring and i'm thinking about libya and things like that yeah. are you worried about that are you worried that if the current government in in lebanon doesn't. fulfill the execution of these these warrants here it will be used as a pretext for regime change or pressure on the regime in trying to isolate the

current political elite in lebanon i mean that seems to be the flavor of the moment now in dealing with dealing with political change in the greater middle east what do you think it's difficult to say regime change in lebanon because lebanon contra you know in contrast to say syria and egypt and libya you know where they were ruled by a one man one party scenario lebanon is not is not that case so it's very hard to apply regime change in lebanon as such you know you have governments governments going governments come they have with no confidence now the new government is because of his government down the line i mean there is an attempt as we speak in the next. three days and they declared it the march fourteenth if you want the opposition at the moment said that it aims to bring down this particular government and they're in session for the next three days starting today. in parliament to see whether they would vote for or against now the likelihood is that they will not be able to bring

a dart on this round but they could do that you know maybe another time. the fact of the matter is you know there won't be as. you know a typical i mean spring revolutions that are happening around the world we must we must be very careful not to stereotype them all as the same you know each country is different you know with its own with its own characteristics and its own systems and they apply accordingly you cannot take one and apply to the rest of the region it doesn't work as well as we've seen i mean if i go to you it looks very likely that the lebanese government isn't going to give up these four people who've been indicted what do you think the result should be is that i mean what kind of message is that send in i'm not asking you to speak for israel but how do you think media will react to it. sure well i mean how i think that israel will take it in stride the same way that lebanon will take it in stride the same way that the region will take it in stride nobody expects the hezbollah government which before they controlled the government when they were merely the opposition when they were merely a coalition partner said that they would cut off the hands of anybody who tried to arrest anybody indicted by the internationally sanctioned prosecutor investigation

so the question is not whether or not they're going to hand him over but what in lebanon will do for now i think that on this issue probably is the only issue that the panelists agree which is that the lead but there is no taste in lebanon for sectarian conflict and if there was a case for sectarian conflict and this is what the other panelist won't say but is the fact that the march fourteenth movement would get that would lose his ball as would the u.s. trained lebanese armed forces would lose to his body his body was just the most powerful militia the most powerful military force if you will in lebanon and so the country is going to roll with it because nobody can do anything else and it's an interesting way of mana when i when you think about that i mean you can see a lot of media coverage there's a lot of hype but i mean everybody wants to keep the peace go ahead. absolutely and you know we already have i personally think that there could be tensions with the international community. as this as i said is

a global tradition brosius is not only limited to eleven on and syria and we already saw the movement last week i think in the u.s. congress which wanted to stop military aid to lebanon so this is developed that will impact on the many steps the other thing is i'm wondering why you didn't ask about the role of saudi arabia i think saudi arabia has quite a an important role to play and i think it was although it was very unhappy when they heard it a government was felt this earlier this year. it's clearly started to lean on its allies in lebanon not to escalate the situation against syria because saudi arabia is one of the countries that certainly doesn't want the arabs the arab spring to spread it's a very good point. how if i can ask if i can ask you i mean it's quite interesting

here we're in this program we've seen that how lebanon remains just a pawn of so many other countries and we can name them on quite a few of them it would have been mentioned here i mean is lebanon strong enough politically its political establishment to to make sure it doesn't become victim of outside forces to stir up these troubles that we've seen over the last few decades i think many years ago before you know what during the civil war and before the civil war that was the case and many factions in lebanon have various if you want support from from from from other countries or allies in other countries however i think lebanon also has come a long way from from those days of you know when they went on the street and took and took to the gun it's a different generation and love and you just have to go around them realize that this kind of generation and the movement is not interested. and taking up arms and fighting each other yes every now and then they go on the street and then shot them scream and demonstrate and then my books if you know kick kick kick kick each other

a little bit but that's about as far as it goes there's no intention by anybody to let you know to allow lebanon you're into a war but more important more importantly he's just one more thought as you know everyone is going and again you know these these are not things one you know not not everyone says that hezbollah for example does not want for this for this you know prosecution took to go ahead now there's a slide the first year of confusion right from the beginning hezbollah was part and parcel of this and it was part of the government i'm sorry we've run out of time and i'd like to thank the rest of our panel is here many thanks to my guest today in jerusalem cairo and in beirut and thanks to our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time and remember talking. to.