the same. culture is the same much different and there is a huge because it is a sign of the more when the united nations try to italy's indicted some members of the liberty she a movement has belonged to the assassination of a former lebanese prime minister. downplayed the official ante up location showing phone the i pod touch from the i.q. exam still. one child's life on the go. video on demand on season one old comes an r.s.s.

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live. below and welcome the crosstalk i'm peter lavelle a united nations tribunals has indicted some members of the lebanese shia movement hezbollah for the assassination of the former lebanese prime minister is this special tribunal looking for justice or is it a tool attempting to take advantage of the country's deep political divisions and is levanon the ultimate loser in this legal process. linda can. live. cross talk lebanon's trial i'm joined by how a job are in beirut she's a british lebanese journalist and author in jerusalem we cross all make sarin he is a writer for commentary magazine and in cairo we have mona evades she is a professor at the american university in cairo ok folks cross talk was in effect but first let's have a show report on the tribunals findings today. days ago a united nations tribunal delivered its long awaited indictment for hezbollah

officials in lebanon accused of assassinating the country's former prime minister rafik hariri and a roadside bomb six years ago the indictments now risk the igniting sectarian violence in a country already rattled by decades of bloodshed these political establishment now faces a tricky challenge it needs to find a compromise that goeth honors its international obligations and prevents a dangerous political split with the shiite hezbollah currently enjoying great political clout and lebanon but this we are today in front of a new reality that request a wise approach putting the supreme interest of the country sydney peace our national unity and knowing the truth concerned. ever since it was opened in two thousand and nine the u.n. tribunal has divided the country along a sectarian lines for the sunni it has represented a chance of serving justice in the murder of a prominent sunni leader meanwhile hezbollah and its constituents have denounced

the tribunal as an american israeli conspiracy to foment civil unrest and sabotage the group itself. we reject everything from the tribunals including its faults indictments and false judgments we will not allow it to drag living on toward strife or civil war. and earlier this year hezbollah brought down the u.s. backed government of late prime minister son so her ri-ri when several of its members withdrew from the cabinet and defiance of the investigation suspicion of involvement of these us nation has also fallen on shiite syria one of hezbollah's allies and patron syria to deny disconnection with the killing the accusation led to mass protests and that syria's decades long military presence in the country syria like libya is part of an alliance and that of violence is very wide it begins in iran some elements in iraq the government are part of the syrian regime has one on love and on how mosques in gaza. some experts warn that if syria becomes too

embroiled in the investigation and i'll break of sectarian violence in lebanon will be almost unavoidable and especially alarming prospect given the spike in the sunni share clashes of the arab spring presently lebanese authorities have less than a month to execute their arrest warrants and hezbollah leader hassan nasrallah has sworn retribution for anyone who tries to do this moshe charney across our team. ok to go to you first since you're in beirut this is been going on a long time and there's a number of people that are accused of this crime that happened in two thousand and five first it was being brain down the syrians a number of men were held they were lit released then we hear it has been people say it's a rant and then there are others that will say it's israel i mean is it gotten down to a he said she said because there's a lot of people that contest a lot of the evidence in this case and there are many people expression in lebanon

they don't trust the tribunals so who dunnit. that's the one million question dollar who who did what right from the beginning the investigation started on false grounds or wrong wrong on wrong grounds it was it was amazing when i was watching it to see for example at the time that within minutes within minutes of the explosion that killed former prime minister hariri the finger of accusation immediately went to syria and not just from lebanon but you know within hours the entire world followed suit and without any evidence without any proof without any anything about time you know syria was being planned so syria was looked at seen as the prime suspect and was accused as such and events followed after that syria continued to be accused for many years and then suddenly out of the blue that changed and i think it was pointed at hezbollah. now even in the early days you

know before the tribunal was ever involved here. if you want the locals that were investigating the case i mean the there were there was evidence tampered with removed when they should have been ruled from the scene of from the scene of crime . it was not sealed off within seconds and then dealt with properly that there's been a lot of you know information over the years about various pieces of evidence that it appeared here there and other. but have not looked into proper properly that were. you know missed investigated at the time and then and then looked at again so that the whole thing about the. former prime sort of. assassination has been marred with problems right from right from the minutes after hearing he died all right i'm referring to you in jerusalem is this a legal farce speakers i've heard these arguments are going to be evidence is tainted now in fingers were pointed so early i mean is this really just is it is

there a different agenda play i guess really what i'm trying to say go ahead. well i mean we should we should distinguish between a couple of things the first is just because it was obvious from the start what kind of coalition was behind the murder doesn't mean that once all of the evidence was assembled that that evidence was wrong we need most crimes the vast majority of crimes we have a general sense of who done it and then the job of investigators and subsequently the top of prosecutors is to work through the rule of law in order to demonstrate that the initial intuitions were correct so just because fingers were pointed early is no evidence that the fingers weren't pointed correctly and in fact one of the reasons that fingers are pointed so early is because there was plenty of motive for syria and for their allies in lebanon to commit the murder and another reason is that it bore the hallmarks of the kinds of hits that we know syrian security officials have committed against lebanon lebanese officials they attempted to

resist syrian rule of lebanon so just because fingers were pointed early doesn't mean that they were wrong and it doesn't mean that there weren't good reasons for it now as to the substance of the investigation i think it's way too early to be talking about evidence it was kamprad with the evidence that was removed from the scene all of that is until it's presented at trial rumor margaret and the international community has called upon lebanon and the new lebanese government under prime minister mccarthy to launch an investigation and then to serve the arrest warrants the questions of evidence are questions for trial not questions for rumor mongering and i'm confident that an international tribunal an international investigation from the netherlands which worked as long as it did has all of its ducks in a row and we'll see that trial ever should the trial of a merchant oh man i think what you might think we'd all agree there's i don't want to know there's been a lot of move rumormongering about this mona feingold do you trust this tribunals. do i trust this tribunal or. not really no but i want to say

here is one of the biggest mistakes was to remove such heavy duty as a prime minister he is the only one who could have juggled this whole thing in a balanced way because he might have just pardoned you know not really pardon the s.s. ns but at least let go of this sort of thing which is very divisive and the evidence could become a flash point down the road if things become more tense so while it is gun in lebanon today this i do not findings can easily be exploited in a much more emotive way and we already have these tensions between the sunnis and shias so i really think that only one who could have saved the day would have been prime minister sarkozy and not minister mikati it's a heavy burden on his you know how are you going to get a home here because it's very interesting point was brought up here and i think

it's like the eight hundred pound gorilla in the corner all the time is it what do we juggle here what's most important stability or justice because we've already got that dichotomy today on this program a few seconds ago stability versus justice and can we find a compromise between the polls. you can't have justice you can't have justice without stability and a cause of civility without justice however going back a few things i mean just because saad hariri is prime minister or not you know the case is still there whether he's promised or not he was not removed his cabinet or his government was lifted out of confidence. for the earlier guest who said you know about all the evidence i would all come through and obviously some of the talent and was being you know was being discovered over the years furthermore you know it's surprise that she says or he says that the finger you know pointed to syria meaning that because syria was in town and had other similar. incidents

in lebanon that that means what an article it is it is it is the culprit but it but it trace to mention only fails to mention that israel also there are there are there are hidden marks that are also the same as other attacks that were carried out in assassinations that were carried out in lebanon over the years by israel by israeli secret service is almost that's just me and the fact that there is resistance to better just going through the military isn't true that the fact that israel benefits out of this and was never even suspect is actually better the question in lebanon where he lives on ok. let's go to jerusalem there is with me you know mary snow head first answer go ahead let's let's go let's let's deal with both of those charges very very early the first charge is that the attack or the hallmarks of them aside you know we did mossad homeworks include confirmation of the kill lots of agents targeted a single person in the included specific kinds of most when the mossad allegedly

killed. in syria that was one person when they killed. when they did the hit in dubai it was aimed at one person it's not the case now there are people who say that the fact that this given period a hallmark of a messiah here but rather than. the hallmarks of a syrian hit was the messiah's attempts to make it look like syria did it ok listen if the argument is that it's them aside when it looks like an aside and it's them aside when it doesn't look like them aside then that's not an argument that can be answered that's that is the essence of a non-fossil viable conspiracy theory the second charge which is that israel benefited is an absurd charge israel did not benefit by putting his pala by eliminating his call as opposition and eliminating syria's up and eliminating syria's opposition now it could be that gentleman right there or would you continue later if it was a short break water short break we'll continue our discussion on the u.n. tribunals for lead on stage with our team.

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british. market why not. find out what's really happening to the global economy with nice cars or are no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune into kaiser report on our keep. playing to. see. the big. welcome back to cross talk i'm peter lavelle two minds who were talking

about the un investigation of the killing of a former lebanese prime minister the same. slim. ok mona i'd like to go to another. issue that's being brought up in this program is that who benefits the most from this crime ok and there's so many different variations here some people say it's the israelis and the americans others say it's syria certain factions within lebanon of course has blah you know logically in your mind who benefited from this why it was done. those who benefit it is those who don't want to see as they have eleven on and this has been going on for twenty five years and we don't know who it is but we know at the same time that there are people who are to be held responsible. until now we don't know who are the lead people who are in this bunch of it is possible that there are other indictments identifying individuals in other countries and that's what we

were trying to get there has been speculation that syria could be issued with men but it's not clear. that our speculation is that israel could be indicted also so nothing is clear but what i want to see is that beyond lebanon and syria this is a global judicial process and doesn't only belong to levanon because if lebanon does not address the fortress if his wallet figures if they are indicted then tensions with the international community could arise and the action could escalate on a suffragette to me and then maybe we could justify what hezbollah is saying that the tribunal is completely politicized instruments of the united states and israel but nobody wants to have a sectarian war in lebanon that's the main point so we should see also what is a little or some here a.b.s.

in salute ok jump in there go ahead and we're going to move on to that seems a little bit seems a little bit over the top to say that because lebanon doesn't meet its international obligations because hizbollah won't let it that that's evidence that it's an american israeli plot it seems like it's a hizbollah plot to destabilize lebanon and to undermine the obligations that lebanon has been placed under by the international community there was a resolution the resolution passed there was a prosecutor with an investigation the investigation concluded it's hardly fair to blame anyone other than the people stopping the investigation and let's not forget what we heard in the introduction which is that the last government was brought. down over the government's refusal to disavow the hariri tribe you know the government was brought to his ball of brought down the government because the government failed was meeting its international obligations it's of ok why it was new to me it's easy to find out exactly who it is a lot of people would say this is part of the plan to destabilize lebanon and i think all of us would agree that this is what's going to happen and why and who's

behind it is totally different go ahead i'll go ahead i think i think as an observer as a journalist and i've been covering this country even though i'm going to be nice but i live abroad and for many years and i. you know i can i can i can say that if hezbollah or any other faction for that matter and i don't want to destabilize the country they can hezbollah has been one of the factors in lebanon so far and i'm sorry if people disagree but that's a fact on the ground that has made sure that this state you know that this country continues to be stabilized and refuses to participate and intercept arean war or conflicts or to cause this that is a sugar and robin on. down the governments liberals should know free you know. the government let's let alone lebanon voters vote of no confidence like any other country can because it does have some of the democratic system and then groups and them do the governance down there and it's as simple as that you know and when you have one hundred seventy is all it was over were states

army i mean it's so easy to say has my love brought down the government i mean when you look at any particular government has been lies about two members and they say doesn't even it doesn't even how can a surety and a government and i still don't know it can i just leave them only here i'd like to go to mona there's there's one interesting scenario out there is that you and i'm not going to point a finger at anyone right here but there are some people in the in the region i'll be honest something about israel are very pleased to see that the lebanese are sponsoring among themselves because they don't want to see another. war with hezbollah because of the. the law is been very very careful in expanding its influence in the country and maintaining its grassroots stronghold which it has i mean it does have a lot of popularity in lebanon that something that would bother the israelis and throw in the mix what's going on in syria. city has to liars now in her. you know in the international issues. and that's why she

it's serious giving a distance from the details of the indictment if you noticed. so the government is obviously of has the must escape here least supporters will learn the current government so it is obviously present politically but it will try to be as far away from the discussion about the war on terror as possible syria says this is an internal lebanese issue and if any syrians are in they did they would be dealt with internally that's what syria says now many other countries as you said maybe. not happy better. not under happy. let me go let me go let's go back to beirut. i want one of the thinking given this area that we live in now called the arab

spring and i'm thinking about libya and things like that yeah you think. hollering are you worried about are you worried that if the current government in in lebanon doesn't. fulfill the execution of these these warrants here it will be used as a pretext for regime change or pressure on the regime in trying to isolate the current political leader in lebanon i mean that seems to be the flavor of the moment now in dealing with dealing with political change in the greater middle east where you think it's it's difficult to say regime change in lebanon because lebanon contra you know in contrast to say syria. egypt and libya you know where they were ruled by one man one party scenario lebanon is not is not that case so it's very hard to apply regime change in lebanon as such you know you have governments governments going governments come people with no confidence now the new government is because these governments down the line i mean there is an attempt as we speak and there. three days and they declared it the march fourteenth if you want the opposition at the moment said that it aims to bring down this particular government

and they're in session for the next three days starting today. in parliament to see whether they would vote for or against now the likelihood is that they will not be able to bring it out on this round but they could do that you know maybe another time. that doesn't matter is you know there won't be as. you know it's a pickle i mean spring revolutions that are happening around the world we must we must be very careful not to stereotype them all as the same you know each country is different you know with its own with its own characteristics and its own systems and they apply accordingly you can take one and apply it to the rest of the region it doesn't work as well as we've seen and we find going to you it looks very likely that the lebanese government isn't going to give up these four people who've been indicted what do you think the result should be is that i mean what kind of message does that send and i'm not asking you to speak for israel but how do you think i mean really react to it. sure i mean. i think that israel will take it in stride the same way that lebanon will take it in stride the same way that the region will

take it in stride nobody expects the government which before they control the government when they were merely the opposition when they were merely a coalition partner so that they would cut off the hands of anybody who tried to arrest anybody indicted by the internationally sanctioned prosecutor investigation so the question is not whether or not they're going to hand him over but what lebanon will do for and i think that it on this issue probably is the only issue that the panelists agree which is that there's no taste in lebanon for sectarian conflict and if there was a taste for second conflict and this is what the other panelist won't say but is the fact that the march fourteenth movement would get that would lose his ball as would the u.s. trained lebanese armed forces would lose to his ball his boat was just the most powerful militia the most powerful military force if you will in lebanon and so the country is going to roll with it because nobody can do anything else and it's an interesting one of mana when what do you think about that i mean it's

a lot of media coverage there's a lot of hype but i mean everybody wants to keep the peace go ahead. absolutely and you know we already as it can have i personally think that there could be tensions with the international community. as this as i said is a global tradition of process it's not only limited to living on and syria and we already saw the movement us three i think in the u.s. congress which wanted to stop military aid to lebanon so this is the vendor the impact on on many steps the other thing is i'm wondering why you didn't ask about the role of saudi arabia i think saudi arabia has quite a an important role to play and i think it was although it was very unhappy when they heard it a government was selling this earlier this year. it's clearly started to lead in on its allies in lebanon love to escalate the situation against syria

because saudi arabia is one of the countries that certainly doesn't want the arabs be the arab spring to spreads that's a very good point. oh my can if i can ask you i mean it's quite interesting here we're in this program we've seen that how lebanon remains just upon of so many other countries and we can name them are quite a few of them it has been mentioned here i mean is lebanon strong enough politically its political establishment to to make sure it doesn't become victim of outside forces to stir up these troubles that we've seen over the last few decades i think many years ago before during you know during the civil war and before the civil war that was the case and yes many factions in lebanon have various if you want support from from from from other countries or allies in other countries however i think lebanon also has come a long way from from those days of you know when they went on the street and took them to the gun it's a different generation and you just have to go around and realize that this kind of

generation and the moment is not interested. and taking up arms and fighting each other yes every now and then they're going to street and then shot them in screamin and demonstrates and then my boxer you know keep kicking each other a little bit but that's about as far as it goes there's no intention by anybody to you know to play. for war but more important more important he's just one more thought as you know everyone is going and again you know these are these are not things one you know not not everyone says that hezbollah for example does not want for this for this you know prosecution to to go ahead now there's a business like the first your confusion right from the beginning has well i was part and parcel of this and it was part of the government i'm sorry we've run out of time i don't like to thank the rest of our panelists or many thanks to my guest today in jerusalem cairo and in beirut and thanks for viewers for watching this here r.t. to next time and remember. to keep.

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